Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

Postby Xfing » May 3 2018, 23:00

Rodril wrote:
    Xfing wrote: I need to know whether spears, tridents and halberds have hardcoded values of +1d9 and +1d6 if used with two hands, or whether these values are dynamic.


    I checked it just now, and it's just like I calculated - if you have a trident at 2d5, it's doing to be 3d5 in both hands, so my assumptions were correct :D

    Speaking of tridents though, you forgot to alter the stats of the following weapons:
    - Trident (MM6)
    - Ornate Trident (MM6)
    - Titanic Trident (MM6)
    - Halberd (MM6)
    - Halberd (MM8), though you renamed it to Common Halberd. I suggest moving this name to the MM6 halberd. Nerf it from +3 to +2 to make the next one a bigger leap in quality.
    - Massive Halberd (MM6), forgot to change the value from 400 to 450

    I kinda screwed up the calculations on the bows, now it's not like every next bow is better than the last one. I've updated the file on Onedrive with fixed values, please re-examine it. This in practice connects to buffing most of the bows by +1, but now it's going to be right at least. Oh, and I don't mind you choosing the Devilbone Bow to be stronger than the Griffin Bow - that was probably actually the right decision, so stick with that :P

    And last but not least, clubs now do make a sound when swung like they should, and have a default recovery rate of 80. That is great. But I've also noticed that the swinging sound plays when you right-click the attack bonus field to check the recovery, it's a weird bug. Also, I've got a recovery of 60 on my knight who's wearing a Supreme Plate (of Swiftness), but a recovery of 80 on everyone else, regardless of armor. I believe club recovery should be affected by: armor penalties, the character's Speed stat and Armsmaster bonuses to recovery time (and the other bonuses too I guess), pretty much just like any other weapon. Also, like every other weapon it shouldn't go below 30.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Mortis » May 4 2018, 9:18

    Rodril wrote:Hello, patch link have been updated. I've added new item values, thanks to Xfing. Note: if you use any localization, reapply it's EnglishT.lod as well to make changes happen. Also few fixes, including artifacts doubles and clubs.<br abp="420">
    Mortis wrote:GM Leather doesn't work properly- doesn't add elemental resistances as it should.
    "Should be fixed now"
    Fixed,thanks
    Mortis wrote:"Of sparks" effect also doesn't work . There is no single spark while attacking.
    Where did you get item with this effect? I think, it has 0% chance to appear. It is service bonus, I've used for video in first post, effect disabled here.

    Well, i made some little changes in STDITEMS and SPCITEMS files for my own use but i didnt change anything with sparks effect.
    I have checked SPCITEM file and it seems that of sparks has as default value of 10 for both one handed and two handed weapons. I am talking about file before your latest update. Where did I get it? I crafted axe with this effect from ore in Shadowspire.
    "Crown of lich artifact doesn't boosts dark magic skill if you use at the same time normal item(ring for example), which also boosts this skill"-this is only about Crown of Final domination. Ethric's Staff and Rule's ring work properly- they stack with normal items.
    Last edited by Mortis on May 4 2018, 9:19, edited 2 times in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 4 2018, 9:49

    As far as I know, bonuses such as "of Dark Magic" were never meant to stack beyond just one, which gives you a 50% bonus to the skill, for example if your Dark Magic is at 10, it gives you another 5. If they stack in this merge, it's OP in my opinion. It's enough for you to get the skill to level 30 (which is not that hard to do), to get the full benefit of a lvl 60 skill.
    Last edited by Xfing on May 4 2018, 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Phobos » May 4 2018, 11:53

    Xfing wrote:As far as I know, bonuses such as "of Dark Magic" were never meant to stack beyond just one, which gives you a 50% bonus to the skill, for example if your Dark Magic is at 10, it gives you another 5. If they stack in this merge, it's OP in my opinion. It's enough for you to get the skill to level 30 (which is not that hard to do), to get the full benefit of a lvl 60 skill.
    They did stack in MM6, so that an Artifact and a normal item used to grant a total bonus of +100 %. That was as far as it went. (Two normal items were still +50 %.) However, that was changed with 7 and 8, so that it's always +50%. With all these bolstered monsters, there is a case to be made for the stacking of bonuses.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby chiyolate » May 4 2018, 14:06

    In MM6 relics/artifacts would stack with normal items and make it 225% in total. (100% ---> 150% ---> 225%)

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Rodril » May 4 2018, 17:07

    I messed up with resistances, sorry. Redownload and reapply update and localization, please.
    Also, clubs will work as intended now, "Of Sparks" won't appear again, I've corrected item changes according to word-file, MM8 artifacts will stack their spell skill bonuses as they should. At the moment any amount of artifacts can be stacked up, maybe i'll limit it to just common item + artifact. Also each item with "Of Dark", for example, gives bonus based only on base skill, so with 10 skill level and one item you'll get +5, with two items - + 10 etc.
    Last edited by Rodril on May 4 2018, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 4 2018, 17:25

    Thanks for the update, Rodril! A few more weeks of updates and changes and this merge will shape up to be much better than the sum of its parts, I feel :P

    EDIT: Clubs do indeed work properly now (which is a very welcome and long awaited change!), but I actually don't see any changes to item stats compared to the previous version (bows, tridents and halberds).
    Last edited by Xfing on May 4 2018, 19:46, edited 2 times in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Rodril » May 5 2018, 0:02

    Xfing wrote:but I actually don't see any changes to item stats compared

    Ouch, forgot to put it into. Redownload EnglishT.lod from "Data" folder of update and replace same in gamefolder. It was in localizations, not necessary to redownload them.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby UnknownHuman » May 5 2018, 9:31

    Hi there.
    Just downloaded the latest patch but get this error when starting game :

    Scripts/Core/RSFunctions.lua:185: D:\GOG Games\Might and Magic VIII - Day of the Destroyer/Scripts/Structs/After/MoveModel.asm: No such file or directory

    stack traceback:
    [C]: in function 'assert'
    Scripts/Core/RSFunctions.lua:185: in function 'LoadString'
    ...Day of the Destroyer\Scripts\Structs\After\Functions.lua:456: in function 'dofile'
    Scripts\Core\main.lua:484: in main chunk

    arguments of 'LoadString':
    path = "D:\\GOG Games\\Might and Magic VIII - Day of the Destroyer/Scripts/Structs/After/MoveModel.asm"
    translate = nil

    upvalues of 'LoadString':
    assert = (function: builtin#2)
    io_open = (function: builtin#109)

    EDIT :
    Never mind found the file in other place, strange was deleted :(
    Last edited by UnknownHuman on May 5 2018, 9:45, edited 2 times in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 5 2018, 12:08

    Rodril wrote:
    Xfing wrote:but I actually don't see any changes to item stats compared

    Ouch, forgot to put it into. Redownload EnglishT.lod from "Data" folder of update and replace same in gamefolder. It was in localizations, not necessary to redownload them.


    Works now, thanks! It's great to see items altered like this. Next, I'll put forward my suggestions for altering the stats of uniques to match the new values, as well as some slight skill alterations. I'll do that in a couple days probably though.

    One question - since there is no way for me to check directly without some minutes of playing - have you also altered the loot levels of the items? For example will the best weapon of each category now be treated as a level 6 treasure?

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Mortis » May 6 2018, 8:38

    http://www.jeffludwig.com/mm7/ This is the site with quite interesting modification for MM7. BBJ and Maestro mod are well known, but this one is also very good. It changes slightly class skill- for example if you choose Lith Path and become Master you will get GM Body Building, if you choose Dark and become Ninja you will not. For more details, read the description. The one especially interesting change made by Jeff is improving abilities systems. Now investing in strengh, accuracy, dexterity and others has bigger and better influence on yours damages, armor class, HP, SP, especially after 50 points of skill. I think that this particular change can be implemented to Rodril's mod. What do you think Rodril?

    Xfing, really nice job with new item systems. Below some of my ideas:

    Elsenrail-to be pure bane of evil- additional effect-undead slaying.
    Glomenthal- to be even "darker "than is now- additional effect- vampirism.
    I don't think that changing basic damages of both swords is necessary, becouse they have additional light/dark ones. It can be slightly improved by changing these light/dark damages to a constant value- 15 or 20 as it is in MM6 artifacts(Ares mace, Hades sword).
    Breaker- instead of "10-20 body damages "- "+5 to mace skill". I assume that if we have in game active effect such as "bow skill + ...." and "armaster skill + ..." as weapon passive bonus it should be possible to make "mace skill+...". But I can be wrong, I suppose Rodril will clarify if it possible or not.

    In my opinion in MM8 there is no leather armor artifact usefull for warriors, especially trolls. Serendine's Preservation and Last stage Cuirass are very good for mages and maybe vampires but what with warriors? I know that making completely new armor needs tone of work with paperdolls, so we can use already existing one and only give special passive effects.
    The same problem is with daggers. Foulfang is designed to be only vampire weapon and you get it only when you have acces to crypt of time.
    Mordred has only vampirism effect- what is speciall with it? Every dagger can be turn into "Mordred" by GM Dark vampirism spell. It needs something really speciall like "dagger skill+ ..." or additional damage or something else. Then it will be truly worthy of searching and finding.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 6 2018, 11:25

    Those changes sound cool, but personally, I wouldn't go that deep into the balancing aspect. This is supposed to be a merge, not a gameplay mod, so it needs to be as "clean" as possible. My changes to the weapon balance were more of fine-tuning than of outright modification, to justify having access to all those weapons in the game and make sense out of their value - and to somewhat compensate for the monster power boost. I wouldn't even agree with making Elsenrail and Glomenthal have those properties you named, as they're not inherently "good" and "evil", they're just meant to embody the power of light and the power of dark. The enchants they have are sufficient, I think. But that's all for Rodril to decide, I guess.

    If I were to suggest a change to how skills work, I would do something like altering the Bow skill to take into account how crossbows are different and cannot realistically fire two bolts at the same time. If it's possible, I'd have the Bow skill treat bows and crossbows as different weapon classes and work differently for both of them, as such:
    Bow: no changes
    Crossbow:
    Normal - Skill added to attack bonus
    Expert - Skill reduces recovery time
    Master - Skill added to damage
    Grand - Double all previous bonuses

    I wonder if something like this could be coded without having to split the bow skill into two?

    Anyway, as for modifications to the damage values of artifacts and relics - what I had in mind was pretty simple. Just examine the strongest weapon of its given type from vanilla MM, see how big a bonus to damage it has, then calculate the difference between the unique's damage and the best regular item's damage. Then add this difference to the current damage values of the uniques and you're set.

    Example:

    Elsenrail and Glomenthal in the original game have +14 to hit and damage. That is 2 more than the level 5 sword, which has +12. The difference is therefore 2. The best 1h sword in the merge is now the Lionheart Sword with +15 to everything. Add 2 to that and you get +17 to hit/damage on Elsenrail/Glomenthal. Same goes for Puck, which in vanilla MM7 had +14. In an analogous manner, the bonus would be +18 on Havoc and +15 on Snake etc etc. As for bows, I'd take into account the fact that in MM6 and MM7 the tier 5 bows had a +8 bonus, and in MM8 the Devilbone Bow only had +7. Thefore Longseeker from MM8, which was better than the Devilbone bow by 3, should now be better than the best bow (Stellar Bow) by 3 also. But say, Ullyses from MM7 is only 2 points ahead of the Griffin Bow. I'll type out the list of suggested changes to all the unique weapons below, for your convenience:

    https://1drv.ms/x/s!AipYIqF9-ia6bdlEUpog11lMrN0

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 6 2018, 13:38

    I've also edited the skill table, here it is:
    https://1drv.ms/t/s!AipYIqF9-ia6cIe-QaEQdI48e7Y

    Changes:

    Clerics now have Expert Staff rather than normal, Expert Repair and Learning rather than Master. They can now learn basic Armsmaster regardless of promotion status, rather than only starting with their final promotion. They no longer have ID Monster, as in MM8.

    Monks again have a split Disarm Trap promotion cap, with Ninjas getting Master and Masters getting Expert.

    Knights now have Master Bodybuilding rather than Grand, Expert Leather rather than Master and Expert ID Monster rather than none at all.

    All Sorcerer classes now have no Repair Item, and are equalized when it comes to Disarm Trap (Normal)

    Please let me know if you think these changes are acceptable and can be integrated into your own files.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Mortis » May 6 2018, 15:11

    I would like to disagree with you Xfing:)
    First, if you want to have realistic system of weapons working , you should be consistent and change not only crossbow. For example axes should have much more base damage but very low attack bonus, becouse in reality they are slow but when you hit, damage is almost deadly. Dagger contrary, very low base damage but very high bonus attack, higher even than swords, becouse they are much faster and you have more occasions to attack. For example if sword have attack bonus 12, daggers should have 21. Damage- sword base 3d3, dagger 1d2., etc.
    You said you want "clean" merge and I am afraid this "realism" would change game system to much.

    Second, base damage bonus of Glomenthal and Elsenrail as longswords is only 2 higher in comparison do typical ones, becouse of additional light/dark damages. Attacking by champions sword you have 3d3+12 damage while attacking by Glomenthal/Elsenrail in best way you have 3d3+14 +20, so changing base damage would make them too op. I didn't suggest that. I said, that if Ares and Hades have respectively 30 and 20 additional damages , then Glomenthal and Elsenrail should have also constant value, not randomly from 10 to 20.

    Third, about class skills everyone has his own ideas, including me.
    For example, in my opinion clerics as people who study in monasteries/churches should have at least Mastery in lerning and GM in meditation.
    Druid is a class which bound with the nature and elements is the strongest and thats why they should be able to achieve GM in elemental magic.
    More of that, they should be only class with this skill level. Mages/liches only mastery, dark elves expert.
    Next, vampires with dagger in one hand and shield in second is for me complete misunderstanding. They should be or:
    some version of dark knights with plate/chainmal and axe/sword in right hand and shield in left(all GM level all)
    or
    light-armoured warriors with dagger in each hand and Leather Master and Dodging GM.
    They are almost eternal creatures with hundred years of expierience, so additionaly GM in ID monster ID items as they in their long life got knowledge about many items and monsters.
    Moreover- undead with healing body magic and spirit? NO way. Those two should be restricted to clerics, Body magic at expert level maybe also for druids and paladins. For vampires none- they have their own usefull natural skills. If you must, give them mind magic becouse mind control is something related to vampires.
    In conclusion, once again- everyone has his own ideas. File with class skills is easy to customize for everybody, so you,me and whoever wants can make his own adjustment. I did one for myself. This is RODRIL'S modification and he should realize his own ideas and visions.
    Last edited by Mortis on May 6 2018, 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 6 2018, 17:51

    Mortis wrote:I would like to disagree with you Xfing:)
    First, if you want to have realistic system of weapons working , you should be consistent and change not only crossbow. For example axes should have much more base damage but very low attack bonus, becouse in reality they are slow but when you hit, damage is almost deadly. Dagger contrary, very low base damage but very high bonus attack, higher even than swords, becouse they are much faster and you have more occasions to attack. For example if sword have attack bonus 12, daggers should have 21. Damage- sword base 3d3, dagger 1d2., etc.
    You said you want "clean" merge and I am afraid this "realism" would change game system to much.


    The examples you gave are arguably much more arbitrary than the simple fact that crossbows don't have two bolt rows. Furthermore, the stuff you noticed about the weapons is already more or less reflected in their damage values as it is. Changing just the crossbows isn't too far-fetched IMO - I'm sure I'm not the only one who's bothered that they fire two arrows like bows do, and the change I suggested would make their single bolts competitive with double arrow bows. It's just a suggestion though and Rodril is under no obligation to take it into consideration. Another solution that would enhance realism somewhat would be to make the 2 bolts fired by the crossbow be aligned horizontally rather than vertically. I'm not sure which solution requires more programming and alterations, though.

    Second, base damage bonus of Glomenthal and Elsenrail as longswords is only 2 higher in comparison do typical ones, becouse of additional light/dark damages. Attacking by champions sword you have 3d3+12 damage while attacking by Glomenthal/Elsenrail in best way you have 3d3+14 +20, so changing base damage would make them too op. I didn't suggest that. I said, that if Ares and Hades have respectively 30 and 20 additional damages , then Glomenthal and Elsenrail should have also constant value, not randomly from 10 to 20.


    I don't see how adding +3 to these swords' damage would make them OP, lol. I'll remind you that the best non-unique longsword now has 3d3+15, and it can always have an "of the Dragon" enchantment, which will make it more powerful than Elsenrail and Glomenthal currently are. If regular swords have been buffed, artifacts and relics need to be buffed too, to stay ahead in power. And I know you didn't suggest it, I had it in mind since day one actually :P

    Third, about class skills everyone has his own ideas, including me.
    For example, in my opinion clerics as people who study in monasteries/churches should have at least Mastery in lerning and GM in meditation.
    Druid is a class which bound with the nature and elements is the strongest and thats why they should be able to achieve GM in elemental magic.
    More of that, they should be only class with this skill level. Mages/liches only mastery, dark elves expert.


    My changes only brought the classes in line with the MM8 values, I made no arbitrary changes to those, since this is not supposed to be a game balance mod. I have once tried altering the skill values in a mod for MM7 that I made once, it's in this thread if you'd like to take a look:
    https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/10/14845

    In conclusion, once again- everyone has his own ideas. File with class skills is easy to customize for everybody, so you,me and whoever wants can make his own adjustment. I did one for myself. This is RODRIL'S modification and he should realize his own ideas and visions.


    Yeah, that's why people make mods. All the changes you've suggested are heavily game-altering, while mine are just the same nerfs that MM8 brought - part of which had already been implemented by Rodril. This is a merge which is supposed to leave the core game more or less unchanged. You can put mods on top of this too if you want. Rodril will do as he pleases, I'm just offering some help here like I've been doing for a while now.

    Speaking of help, I've noticed some minor bugs:
    - Rihansi's potion ingredient quest (Pure Luck) doesn't disappear from the quest log upon completing it
    - Neither does Bartholomew Hume's "Master" quest.
    - The Expert and Master teachers for Ancient Weapons (Light path) charge 2000 and 5000 respectively, but Resurectra charges 0.
    - The Hatchling/Dragonette/Young Dragon line has a way too steep strengthening curve. At party level ~110 Young Dragons have ~4500k health, while Dragon Flightleaders are still under 2000.
    - I've encountered Reactors in the Arena. They're immune to everything, but Blaster Rifle fire doesn't damage them either. I believe it should.

    I'll keep my eyes open for more :P
    Last edited by Xfing on May 6 2018, 20:19, edited 5 times in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Daedros » May 6 2018, 20:36

    Xfing wrote:Speaking of help, I've noticed some minor bugs:
    - Rihansi's potion ingredient quest (Pure Luck) doesn't disappear from the quest log upon completing it
    - Neither does Bartholomew Hume's "Master" quest.
    - The Expert and Master teachers for Ancient Weapons (Light path) charge 2000 and 5000 respectively, but Resurectra charges 0.
    - The Hatchling/Dragonette/Young Dragon line has a way too steep strengthening curve. At party level ~110 Young Dragons have ~4500k health, while Dragon Flightleaders are still under 2000.
    - I've encountered Reactors in the Arena. They're immune to everything, but Blaster Rifle fire doesn't damage them either. I believe it should.

    Yeah, i've noticed all the Potion Ingredient quests stick in the quest log. The quest to go to the Mercenary Guild in Tatalia also sticks in the quest log after it's completed.
    Kastore also offers free GM Blaster training.
    I haven't seen creatures scale that sharply in awhile. When i first downloaded the merge about a month ago, i was noticing some crazy scaling, like Dire Wolf Pups with 400+ HP at party Lvl 50, but it seems to have been scaled down quite a bit since then, without me changing any of the settings. Highest i've seen lately at party level 150 is 3k Health Gold Dragons. Well, besides the 16k HP Q (which is normal for him) in the Temple of the Snake.
    Yeah, i mentioned fighting floating Reactors in the Lord Arena like a week ago, lol. Dragons can still damage and kill them, because the Dragon's normal breath attack ignores all Resists.

    Speaking of Dragons, i wonder if it would be possible to actually fix them one day. Everyone knows how broken Dragons are, and by that i don't just mean OP. I mean that Might/Accuracy does absolutely nothing for them because they never use a melee attack, they always use that breath attack that ignores all Resists, and that never misses so long as the graphic for it connects. Would it be possible to replace that with a melee attack, and make their only breath ability to be Flameblast (the AoE Fire Damage spell of theirs that costs SP)?

    I would love to see the Blaster/Blaster Rifle moved to the Bow equipment slot as well, and only be used at range. With Heroism going, even a Lich can hit far harder in melee with a Bone Staff than he can with a Blaster Rifle.
    Hell, i wouldn't mind seeing the Blaster/Blaster Rifle damage buffed, in order to better compete with the Noblebone Bow or bows "of Carnage". Bows with the "Explosive Impact" effect (which is the Noblebone Bow, or "of Carnage") are incredibly powerful, they can hit multiple opponents at the same time (so long as they're tightly packed), and they technically never "miss". So long as the arrow connects with the target, or even near them, it deals damage. Any opponent damaged by the explosion, is staggered, allowing for "stun locks" of entire groups if your party has multiple "Explosive Impact" bows and low Recovery. This makes "Explosive Impact" bows far stronger than even Blaster Rifles currently.

    Another note, the Percival bow which is "Of Swiftness, of Carnage", doesn't have a true "Explosive Impact" effect. To clarify what i mean by this...
    1. Normal bow shoots and the arrow connects. If your Attack Bonus exceeds the target's Armor Class in a roll, the arrow deals damage. If the Attack Bonus failed to exceed the Armor Class in a roll, the arrow does not deal damage. If the arrow hits the ground next to the target, no damage is dealt.
    2. Blaster Rifle shoots and the beam connects. If your Attack Bonus exceeds the target's Armor Class in a roll, the beam deals damage. If the Attack Bonus failed to exceed the Armor Class in a roll, the beam does not deal damage. If the beam hits the ground next to the target, no damage is dealt.
    3. Percival shoots and the arrow connects. A fireball occurs on target, damaging and staggering anything near them, AC is bypassed. If the arrow hits the ground next to the target, no damage is dealt.
    4. Noblebone Bow shoots and the arrow connects. An explosion occurs on the target, damaging and staggering anything near them, AC is bypassed. If the arrow hits the ground next to the target, an explosion occurs, damaging and staggering anything near it, AC is bypassed.

    Currently, a Noblebone Bow in the hands of a character with Lvl 1 Normal Bow skill, is more powerful than a Blaster Rifle in the hands of a character with Lvl 60 Grandmaster Blaster skill.
    Last edited by Daedros on May 6 2018, 22:00, edited 8 times in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Xfing » May 6 2018, 21:17

    Yeah, the scaling definitely needs some fine-tuning. For example, goblins scale up to like 900-1300 hp, while stronger monsters than them don't scale to half as much.

    And another thing: Alice Hargreaves doesn't leave the party when the Hero quest for Charles Quixote is completed.
    Last edited by Xfing on May 6 2018, 21:21, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Mortis » May 6 2018, 21:55

    Xfing wrote:
    Mortis wrote:I would like to disagree with you Xfing:)
    First, if you want to have realistic system of weapons working , you should be consistent and change not only crossbow. For example axes should have much more base damage but very low attack bonus, becouse in reality they are slow but when you hit, damage is almost deadly. Dagger contrary, very low base damage but very high bonus attack, higher even than swords, becouse they are much faster and you have more occasions to attack. For example if sword have attack bonus 12, daggers should have 21. Damage- sword base 3d3, dagger 1d2., etc.
    You said you want "clean" merge and I am afraid this "realism" would change game system to much.


    The examples you gave are arguably much more arbitrary than the simple fact that crossbows don't have two bolt rows. Furthermore, the stuff you noticed about the weapons is already more or less reflected in their damage values as it is. Changing just the crossbows isn't too far-fetched IMO - I'm sure I'm not the only one who's bothered that they fire two arrows like bows do, and the change I suggested would make their single bolts competitive with double arrow bows. It's just a suggestion though and Rodril is under no obligation to take it into consideration. Another solution that would enhance realism somewhat would be to make the 2 bolts fired by the crossbow be aligned horizontally rather than vertically. I'm not sure which solution requires more programming and alterations, though.

    Second, base damage bonus of Glomenthal and Elsenrail as longswords is only 2 higher in comparison do typical ones, becouse of additional light/dark damages. Attacking by champions sword you have 3d3+12 damage while attacking by Glomenthal/Elsenrail in best way you have 3d3+14 +20, so changing base damage would make them too op. I didn't suggest that. I said, that if Ares and Hades have respectively 30 and 20 additional damages , then Glomenthal and Elsenrail should have also constant value, not randomly from 10 to 20.


    I don't see how adding +3 to these swords' damage would make them OP, lol. I'll remind you that the best non-unique longsword now has 3d3+15, and it can always have an "of the Dragon" enchantment, which will make it more powerful than Elsenrail and Glomenthal currently are. If regular swords have been buffed, artifacts and relics need to be buffed too, to stay ahead in power. And I know you didn't suggest it, I had it in mind since day one actually :P

    Third, about class skills everyone has his own ideas, including me.
    For example, in my opinion clerics as people who study in monasteries/churches should have at least Mastery in lerning and GM in meditation.
    Druid is a class which bound with the nature and elements is the strongest and thats why they should be able to achieve GM in elemental magic.
    More of that, they should be only class with this skill level. Mages/liches only mastery, dark elves expert.


    My changes only brought the classes in line with the MM8 values, I made no arbitrary changes to those, since this is not supposed to be a game balance mod. I have once tried altering the skill values in a mod for MM7 that I made once, it's in this thread if you'd like to take a look:
    https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/10/14845

    In conclusion, once again- everyone has his own ideas. File with class skills is easy to customize for everybody, so you,me and whoever wants can make his own adjustment. I did one for myself. This is RODRIL'S modification and he should realize his own ideas and visions.


    Yeah, that's why people make mods. All the changes you've suggested are heavily game-altering, while mine are just the same nerfs that MM8 brought - part of which had already been implemented by Rodril. This is a merge which is supposed to leave the core game more or less unchanged. You can put mods on top of this too if you want. Rodril will do as he pleases, I'm just offering some help here like I've been doing for a while now.

    Speaking of help, I've noticed some minor bugs:
    - Rihansi's potion ingredient quest (Pure Luck) doesn't disappear from the quest log upon completing it
    - Neither does Bartholomew Hume's "Master" quest.
    - The Expert and Master teachers for Ancient Weapons (Light path) charge 2000 and 5000 respectively, but Resurectra charges 0.
    - The Hatchling/Dragonette/Young Dragon line has a way too steep strengthening curve. At party level ~110 Young Dragons have ~4500k health, while Dragon Flightleaders are still under 2000.
    - I've encountered Reactors in the Arena. They're immune to everything, but Blaster Rifle fire doesn't damage them either. I believe it should.

    I'll keep my eyes open for more :P

    We are talking about two different problems. You are focusing only on your current item's modification, i am talking in general.
    If we have merged 3 games for me it would be better if all artifacts in game which cause additional non-physical damage had constant value of those damages.
    It doesnt matter if their base damage is 3d3+14, 3d3 +15 or more, becouse these or only numbers and can be modified in any time. I am talking about general idea, system, rule or whatever you want call it. But, this is only my vision/proposition.
    You know, balance is matter of discussion and depends on point of view.That is why i wrote that each player should make his own adjustment.
    For you my proposition with class skills is heavily game-altering, while for me is a better balance improvement and makes classes more unique. . There is no objective changes if you modify original stats, skills or other things.
    Last edited by Mortis on May 6 2018, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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    Daedros
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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby Daedros » May 6 2018, 22:53

    Mortis wrote:I would like to disagree with you Xfing:)
    Next, vampires with dagger in one hand and shield in second is for me complete misunderstanding. They should be or:
    some version of dark knights with plate/chainmal and axe/sword in right hand and shield in left(all GM level all)
    or
    light-armoured warriors with dagger in each hand and Leather Master and Dodging GM.
    They are almost eternal creatures with hundred years of expierience, so additionaly GM in ID monster ID items as they in their long life got knowledge about many items and monsters.
    Moreover- undead with healing body magic and spirit? NO way. Those two should be restricted to clerics, Body magic at expert level maybe also for druids and paladins. For vampires none- they have their own usefull natural skills. If you must, give them mind magic becouse mind control is something related to vampires.

    Vampires are already "light-armoured warriors with dagger in each hand and Leather Master". If you're using a Shield on a Vampire, you're not making the most of their strengths. Vampires excel when dual wielding Foulfangs, or any dual daggers that are "of Darkness" or "Vampiric". They become high DPS leech tanks then. As for "some version of dark knights with plate/chainmal and axe/sword in right hand and shield in left(all GM level all)" your describing Death Knights from HoMM. Vampires in HoMM 5+ fit that description, but wield two handed swords instead.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMn-9WmqRmo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI4oIBZwVDs
    If a Race option were ever added to character creation in the Merge, then i suppose you could make a Vampire Knight that would fit what you want. Have all the skills of a Knight, but with the Vampire ability as well.

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    Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine.

    Postby DarthVadre » May 7 2018, 6:10

    Is it reasonable to increase the skill points cap? I'm guessing the limit we see now (62) is a data structure constriction, so maybe it would be possible to double it with a new 'skill', store the added value in a buffer, and reference that? I could see wiring the UI being really tricky though, as well as dealing with skill modifiers.

    I dunno, I'm very much out of my domain here. I'm a high level programmer (js, php, python, etc)
    Your perception determines your experience.


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