MM7: Yet another skill table mod! (for better balance IMO)

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MM7: Yet another skill table mod! (for better balance IMO)

Postby Xfing » Oct 17 2014, 12:23

Ok guys, so today I decided that Clerics and Sorcerers were too good and there's basically no reason any sane adventurer would choose any other spellcaster class over these two, unless he's a masochist. Druids suffer especially, since they're a really bad hybrid, all things considered. So I decided I would jack up all magic users a notch to make them valid replacements for Clerics and Sorcerers, while still keeping the latter two useful and by all means wanted additions to any party. I also decided to slightly rebalance other skills for the classes while I'm at it. I'll give you a rundown of all the classes and what's new for them and try to give my reasoning for the changes. My mod isn't as radical as BTB's modification from 2009 (well, not counting the magic changes, hehe), it was more along the lines of making all and every class real worthwhile and it was focused foremost on magic - though several of our ideas were the same.

The format is such: on the left is the original skill configuration, with the 1st position meaning an unpromoted char, the 2nd a 1st promotion char, the 3rd the Light promotion and the 4th the Dark promotion. The skill levels are represented by - (lack), B (basic), E (expert), M (master), and G (grandmaster).

Finally, I'd like to mention that this OP describes the current state of the tweaks and might not be final - further changes will be discussed within the thread but given brief explanations in the OP as well.

KNIGHT:
Buffs:
ID Monster: ---- -> EEEE

Nerfs:
Leather: MMMM -> EEEE

That's it for the knight - this class is so powerful thanks to GM Armsmaster and Body Building, coupled with Plate and Shield that it really needs no further buffs. Expert ID Monster was introduced in MM8 for the Knight, and there really is no reason this class shouldn't have it. The Leather Armor nerf is also a decision inspired by MM8. The Knight logically shouldn't excel at this form of armor.

THIEF:
Buffs:
Elemental Magic: -BBB -> -BEE
Meditation: ---- -> --BB
ID Monster: ---- > EEMM
Merchant: MMMM -> MMGG

Nerfs:
Mace: EEEE -> BBBB
Chain: EEEE -> BBBB
Shield: BBBB -> ----

The Monk's Light promotion enlightened me to the fact that the thief could also use expertise in magic - elemental in this case - to have a decent ranged attack in addition to the bow, especially since at later levels his mana pool is large enough to make some use of those spells - Meditation further facilitates it. ID Monster is something that stands to reason, I have no idea why the thief didn't have this skill in the first place. An Assassin murders people and a Spy spies on them, they're bound to accumulate knowledge on people and creatures. I've nerfed the Mace because it's an entirely un-thiefly weapon and not stealthy at all, likewise with the cumbersome chainmail - the Thief is the least likely class to wear chainmail out of them all, so I wanted it to reflect on the skill cap. I've also removed the shield skill since it was practically arbitrary, and it's not like anyone opted for it anyway. Finally, Thieves get GM Merchant to give them more utility, because they were underused otherwise and Clerics were overpowered. Thieves are the most logical class to get GM in Merchant if the Cleric loses it.

MONK:
Buffs:
Bow: BBBB -> EEEE
Self Magic: -BEB -> -BEE
Stealing: BBBE -> BEEM
Merchant: ---- -> --B-
Meditation: ---- -> --BB
Alchemy: ---- -> BBEB

I thought it would be fair to slightly boost the Monks: the archetype of an "archer friar" is quite popular, so I gave the Monk Expert Bow. Also, the fact that the Monk was worse at stealing than the Ranger annoyed me a lot, so I increased their aptitude levels by 1 category, with Ninjas being able to go for Mastery. Also, since real life monks tend to dabble in herbal medicine, I thought it was appropriate to give the Monk at least basic Alchemy skills. Since being able to cast expert spells was originally what gave the Master an edge over the Ninja, I decided the Master should get something more to compensate for the Ninja's restored ability to do so - hence Masters will now be able to get basic Merchant (Master monks tend to be quite charming fellows for one thing, they often run their own monasteries for another, so I would imagine they're in charge of procuring supplies) and Expert Alchemy to distinguish themselves from Ninjas, who'll remain better at stealing and disarming.

PALADIN:
Buffs:
Self Magic: BEMM -> EMGG
Spear: EEEE -> MMMM
Chain: EEEE -> MMMM
Perception: BBBB -> EEEE
Light Magic: --B- -> --E-
Dark Magic: ---B -> ---E
Disarm Trap: ---- -> BBBB
ID Monster: ---- > BBBB
Alchemy: ---- -> BBBB

Nerfs:
Repair Item: MMGG -> MMMM
Body Building: MMMM -> EEMM
Sword: MMMM -> EEEE

The Paladin got heavily buffed here, and for good reason too - some of his skills were severely too weak to really let him shine. Grandmastery in Self Magic is of biggest note here - this is to make the Paladin a viable alternative to a Cleric. Keep in mind that in earlier titles Paladins were just as good as Clerics at the Self realms of magic, they even got Divine Intervention in the DOS titles. Therefore I believe that still, the Cleric's biggest selling point should be Light/Dark Magic - with that combined with his greater Mana pool he shouldn't have yet another edge on the Paladin in the form of exclusive access to Self grandmastery. Chain got buffed to give the Paladin a recovery pentalty free armor option higher than Leather (besides it's bullcrap that he wouldn't get Master in Chain anyway). Perception got buffed to Expert because the Paladin was the only class to be restricted to Basic in that skill for no good reason at all. The schools of Light and Dark got buffed to Expert, since having access to only the Basic spells was kind of pointless, and Expert is still weak enough, considering how all the best spells are of Master level. Sword mastery has been dropped and exchanged for Spear mastery - the Paladin unlike the Archer can at least use his spear in conjunction with a shield which gives him a good alternative to the Mace. And finally, the three miscellaneous skills that there is no reason at all a Paladin shouldn't be able to learn, were given to him on Basic level. The Repair nerf was done in order to give the edge on that one to the Knight - the Paladin will still be the only class other than the Knight able to go up to Master. Finally, the Paladin will now have to get promoted a second time to be able to advance to Master in Bodybuilding - this should keep him even with the Archer early on.

ARCHER:
Buffs:
Elemental Magic: BEMM -> EMGG
Light Magic: --B- -> --E-
Dark Magic: ---B -> ---E
Alchemy: ---- -> EEEE
ID Monster: ----> EEEE
Meditation: EEEE -> EEMM
Sword: EEEE ->MMMM

Nerfs:
Spear: MMMM -> EEEE
Staff: BBBB -> ----
Repair: EEEE -> BBBB
Disarm Trap: BBEE -> BBBB
Learning: MMMM -> EEEE

The magic buff of the Archer is analogous to that of the Paladin, so no comment needed here. Master Meditation has been given to the Archer to contrast Paladin's Master Body Building - one is sturdier, the other more frail but more magically inclined - it will require the highest promotion to attain, though - also to mirror the Paladin's new bodybuilding mechanic. The Staff has been removed as it was never even a choice and quite pointless overall, while the Spear was nerfed to Expert since the class has literally no way to make any use of the Master perk - it still remains generally the best choice of melee weapon available to the Archer, but the boost to Swords gives the Archer another viable option and makes it easier to experiment. Repairing and Disarming were nerfed to make the Ranger stand out more in that regard - ID Item remains out of the Archer's access for this same reason and Learning has been nerfed as the Archer isn't really frail enough to need it. This was compensated for by granting the Archer Expert skills in other typically sorcerous disciplines: ID Monster and Alchemy.

RANGER:
Buffs:
Elemental and Self Magic: -BEE -> -EMM
Meditation: BBBB -> -BEE
Alchemy: BBBB -> BEEE
Repair Item: BBBB -> EEEE
ID Item: BBBB -> BEEE

Nerfs:
Staff: BBBB -> ----

The Ranger was the most spread-thin of all the classes in MM7, not particularly good in either combat or magic. And in relation to the newly upgraded classes he remains so, but this time around he can at least pack the full power of the former Druid as far as magic is concerned. He could previously only get Basic Meditation, but still had about as much Mana as Archers and Paladins, since his reserves draw on both Intellect and Personality. Now he gets an upgrade to Expert Meditation, which will give him a definite edge over at least Paladins. Meditation was made learnable only after the promotion to Hunter, since a plain Ranger doesn't have mana at all and being able to learn this skill then made no sense, while getting to Expert will require a second promotion. All that new mana will also be indispensable for casting those new Master spells. His abysmal repairing skills logically needed a boost to Expert, while being able to get Expert in Alchemy rather than just a measly Basic level is just an icing on top of the cake and in my opinion fits in well with his semi-druidic character. Spending so much time in the woods, one is bound to know a lot about alchemical reagents after all! Finally, the Ranger has ID Item elevated to possible Expertise to make the Ranger's skills somewhat stand out compared to the Archer's to compensate for the Archer's better magical prowess. Now the Ranger is truly versatile and running four Rangers can be a viable choice of a party now.

CLERIC:
Buffs:
Self Magic: EMGG -> MMGG
Light Magic: --G- -> -EG-
Dark Magic: ---G -> -E-G
Staff: BBBB -> EEEE
Disarm Trap: ---- -> BBBB
Armsmaster: ---- -> BBBB

Nerfs:
Bow: EEEE -> BBBB
Repair Item: MMMM -> EEEE
Learning: MMMM -> EEEE
ID Monster: EEEE -> ----
Merchant: MMGG -> EMMM
Meditation: MMMM -> EMMM

The Cleric was too powerful and versatile in MM7 - this got curbed in MM8 and the changes from that game inspired me here. However, in light of the boost that the hybrid classes got, the Cleric needs to be even better at magic, and hence will no longer require a promotion to get to Master level in the Self schools. This is compensated by making Master Meditation and Master Merchant require a promotion - in addition the Cleric will no longer GM Merchant, which will be now the Thief's domain. However, the Mirrored Paths got buffed, with the Cleric being able to learn them up to Expert level starting at Priest, Staff has been elevated to Expert and basic Disarming and Armsmaster have been granted. However, several overpowered skills were nerfed, such as Learning and Repair. Monster ID was out of place on a Cleric so it got axed altogether, and Bow was nerfed since only combat classes should get to Expert anyway. The Cleric remains as powerful as ever, but loses some of the versatility of its secondary skills much akin to how it was in MM8.

DRUID:
Buffs:
Elemental and Self Magic: EMMM -> EMGG
Repair Item: ---- -> BBBB
ID Item: EEEE -> MMMM
ID Monster: EEEE -> MMMM
Staff: BBBB -> EEEE

The Druid is the class that started this whole idea for me - you might not agree with giving the Paladin and Archer GM in their respective magic realms, but if someone needs it desperately, it's the Druid. With the biggest mana pool in the game, being restricted to Master spells with no Light or Dark is harsh to say the least. Also, the Druid is a pure spellcaster with HP, martial and armor skills below the Cleric and above the Sorcerer - does that not warrant an ability to GM all the magic realms he can learn? He's rotten in physical combat anyway. In MM6 the Druid was basically the Cleric and Sorcerer in one - except for the ability to use Light and Dark Magic - and this restriction for the Druid is preserved. He also gains a basic ability to repair items (Warlocks are artificers, shouldn't they be able to at least fix basic accessories?), a logical boost to his Staff skills and improved prowess in identifying stuff which suits the Druid's "wise elder" persona. Now having a Druid in a party will actually be a worthwhile decision and either the Cleric or the Sorcerer can be swapped out for one - even both of them can, at the cost only of access to the Mirrored spell schools.

SORCERER:
Buffs:
Elemental Magic: EMGG -> MMGG
Light Magic: --G- -> -EG-
Dark Magic: ---G -> -E-G

Nerfs:
Repair Item: EEEE -> ----
ID Monster: MMGG -> EMMM
ID Item: MMGG -> EMGG
Alchemy: MMMM -> EMMM
Learning: MMMM -> EMMM

Just like the Cleric, the Sorcerer can now learn the Mirrored path up to Expert only at Wizard level. Likewise, the Sorcerer no longer needs a promotion to be able to learn Master in elemental spell schools: this was compensated for by introducing a promotion requirement to get to Master in the Sorcerer's most important secondary skills. Item repair is axed as this is a skill for physical classes, while ID Monster is reduced to Master to have the Ranger become the sole GM.

Installation:

You'll need MMExtension by Grayface. Once it's set up, just copy this file to the DATA folder and overwrite your old one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4t9w4zey3mmmc ... s.txt?dl=0

Getting the regular skill table back is as easy as replacing the new file with the original one again. Also it should be noted that this table file overrides the table found within MM7.exe, so if you have MMExtension already installed, this is the only version that'll work for you.

Please enjoy and discuss!
Last edited by Xfing on Aug 27 2017, 23:02, edited 8 times in total.

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Postby Bloax » Oct 17 2014, 14:56

Well all of this (and more) could be done by editing the things MMExtension provides just by running the game ((MM7)\DATA\Tables\*.txt), and without any EXE modifications.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 17 2014, 16:26

Yeah, indeed. But I didn't know that, I'll need to look into that more. Let's just make it the balance discussion thread, then :P

Hmm... playing a MPAC party with the new setup and I think limiting the Paladin and Archer to Expert levels in magic until the final promotion would be a good idea - the promotion quests that restrict access to these spells are all either difficult or time consuming and it's obvious they're this way for good reason. I'll still let 'em keep GM as maximum level, though, along with Expert in Light/Dark.

I also think the Archer needs something to compensate for lost mastery of the Spear but I'm not sure giving them Master in Sword is the way. It was done in MM8 to a good effect, but this way there is no class capped at Master in Spear anymore.

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Postby Bloax » Oct 17 2014, 23:44

Well here's how they look in my little personal modification:

Code: Select all

Paladin/Crusader/Hero/Villain
Sword
M   M   M   M
Dagger
E   E   E   E
Axe
E   E   E   E
Spear
E   E   E   E
Bow
E   E   E   E
Mace   
M   M   G   G
Shield
M   M   G   G
Leather
E   E   E   E
Chain
M   M   M   M
Plate
M   G   G   G
Spirit
E   M   M   M
Mind
E   M   M   M
Body   
E   M   M   M
Light
-   -   M   -
Dark   
-   -   -   M
Bodybld
M   G   G   G
Medi
E   E   E   E
Armstr
E   M   M   M

In addition to this they also have 50 base HP (10 more than knight, 15 than monk) and have a hp factor (how much hp per experience/bodybuilder level) of 7/10/12 for the appropriate promotion level.
For a reference on that last one, then knights are at 5/7/9 and monks at 5/6/8.
They have quite low MP though, and you can even change their E meditation to restricted and let them get up to G in the body/mind/spirit schools.

This way they would be extremely tanky cleric-knights with a strong MP deficiency, which sounds like a pretty cool Might+Magic class to me.

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Postby Phobos » Oct 18 2014, 19:11

I like the changes you've made. This balances the classes quite nicely. But since GM magic makes the game easier, it's probably a good idea to use a mod that increases monster strength.

Druids don't get GM Earth Magic - was that an oversight?

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Postby Bloax » Oct 19 2014, 3:51

Here are the tables in question. although they're entirely vanilla except the paladin changes I had in mind. (Although they do have both G S/M/B magics and meditation.)
They're sturdy as hell and not too shabby in melee, but their mp pool is very low. (A level 37 crusader without medidation has 99 MP at 92 personality.)

It's a fun sight when your support character is the one that has twice the hp and AC of your knight.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 21 2014, 23:24

An interesting take, Bloax! I'll definitely check out a character using this setup, though I think they might be a tad overpowered.

As of right now, I'll be reuploading the balance fix factoring in the new change in magic thresholds for the Paladin and Archer, along with a MMExtension file. Funny thing is, the tables for MMExtension override the MM7.EXE patch created by that little piece of software I linked to in the OP, so I might as well totally remove it and go solely with a MME table.

Phobos wrote:I like the changes you've made. This balances the classes quite nicely. But since GM magic makes the game easier, it's probably a good idea to use a mod that increases monster strength.


I was thinking the same thought. The classes have become considerably more powerful, I would happily apply a Survival-style monster spawn mod to the game. I think there was one around that messed only with monster spawn values and left the items intact - I would have to find it, though. Agreed though, the classes might be slightly overpowered as they are now, even if they indeed are more fun to play.

As for the Archer melee thing - it keeps bothering me. I would have left Master Spear to the Archer, but the dual-wielding damage formula is botched, and so having a dagger in your left hand will not add enough damage to compensate for the spear's one-handed damage penalty. Which makes the Master Spear perk virtually useless to anyone but the Knight. So yeah, I think Sword Master is the way to go for now.

Druids don't get GM Earth Magic - was that an oversight?


Exactly! What were they thinking? This whole mod idea was initially conceived because I thought the Druid should be able to GM all those magic schools. Master is totally unremarkable looking at all the attributes of the Druid, and it almost seems like this restriction was made as an afterthought or something. With that much mana and combat skills that weak, the Druid should have nothing less than Grandmastery. Hell, he can even already get Master on his first promotion!

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Postby Schopenhauer » Oct 23 2014, 11:13

Hey Xfing,

really like youre rebalancing approach. Adding an extra spawn would be awesome!

@survival
as far as I know, hes the one creating the mod "[SHARE] Survival Spawn MOD =MM7="
----------------------
Spawn x5-x20
HP x2
Exp x2

Higher Prices
Orginal Storyline
Respawn 180 Days
----------------------

Maybe you could incorepate his chances, while toning them down a bit?

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Postby Phobos » Oct 23 2014, 13:06

Xfing wrote:
Druids don't get GM Earth Magic - was that an oversight?
Exactly! What were they thinking? This whole mod idea was initially conceived because I thought the Druid should be able to GM all those magic schools. Master is totally unremarkable looking at all the attributes of the Druid, and it almost seems like this restriction was made as an afterthought or something. With that much mana and combat skills that weak, the Druid should have nothing less than Grandmastery. Hell, he can even already get Master on his first promotion!
Yeah, 3DO should really have done this themselves. But I meant that you missed GM Earth Magic for the Druid in your skill table, it's still only EMMM. The other skills are what they're meant to be :)

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Postby Bloax » Oct 23 2014, 19:03

Does this work? (A mod of some variant of the survival mod, except with vanilla items and less absurd monster hp values.)

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Postby Xfing » Oct 24 2014, 22:57

Bloax wrote:Does this work? (A mod of some variant of the survival mod, except with vanilla items and less absurd monster hp values.)


Hmmm... not sure what to do with it. Do you insert it into Events.lod with MM7view or what do you do? Judging from the name it's just Survival's spawn mod without the new item inventory, which is pretty much what we've been looking for. I'll replace my events.lod with it and see.

EDIT: Yes, it works and does precisely what we want it to do.

Phobos wrote:Yeah, 3DO should really have done this themselves. But I meant that you missed GM Earth Magic for the Druid in your skill table, it's still only EMMM. The other skills are what they're meant to be :)


Yeah, you're right - I overlooked that for some reason. Fixed now, I've reuploaded both files and the links are updated.
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 25 2014, 0:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Arret » Oct 24 2014, 23:36

Are you sure there's a penalty for dual wielding with a spear? MM6 had one, but even that wasn't all that big a deal.

Basic Light magic is immensely useful for both a Paladin or an Archer. Paralyze and Destroy Undead don't scale up by getting expert, so all you really pick up is Prismatic Light. Dark side however, getting expert is a fairly big deal due to base shrapmetal, control undead, and Pain Reflection.


A lot of these changes make sense, but here are some others that would help balance a lot:

Remove Cleric GM merchant and give GM merchant to Thieves. I almost never run a thief because of how useless stealing is. If you gave them GM merchant it would help the class a lot and it doesn't fit with Clerics anyway. Sure disarm is nice, but you get rings for that so even a knight with basic disarm can handle almost any chest, and you have regeneration for any that he can't.

Add master sword to rangers. This is the reason they never scale on damage. You can enchant both weapons with inferno (even solo since they now have master fire!) and would actually deal a lot of damage.

You might as well get rid of GM staff for monks because of how the recovery time causes monks to deal more damage without a weapon even factoring in GM staff.

Knights need to have body building reduced to master level. They already have the best damage in the game for the first 2/3 of the game (and pretty strong even lategame), fast recovery time, best armor in the game, and best weapon skills in the game (not to mention how absurdly overpowered GM armsmaster is). They shouldn't be able to stack 800 hp pretty easily on top of all that.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 25 2014, 0:03

Arret wrote:Are you sure there's a penalty for dual wielding with a spear? MM6 had one, but even that wasn't all that big a deal.


Using a spear in one hand removes 1d9 from its damage output. Not much, it would seem, but due to the bugged dual-wielding mechanic I made a thread about, even adding in a 2d3+7 dagger in the other hand will still have your total damage less than when wielding a spear in both hands. Unless this is fixed, there is no point at all to mastering the Spear.

Basic Light magic is immensely useful for both a Paladin or an Archer. Paralyze and Destroy Undead don't scale up by getting expert, so all you really pick up is Prismatic Light. Dark side however, getting expert is a fairly big deal due to base shrapmetal, control undead, and Pain Reflection.


Yeah... also Day of the Gods might seem like nothing much, but at level 10 it gets you a 20 (or was it 30?) boost to all statistics. Nothing special, but noticeable at least. Shrapmetal is great to have, but Control Undead doesn't really work all that well - since it's a Dark spell, most worthwhile undead such as liches do resist it (similar problem in MM8 with skeletal dragons). I hope Grayface fixes this someday. Pain Reflection, on the other hand, is handy, but cannot be abused due to the fact that at Expert you can only use it on a single char, and neither a Paladin or an Archer will ever have enough mana to reliably set it up for the entire team and still have mana for attacks.

Remove Cleric GM merchant and give GM merchant to Thieves. I almost never run a thief because of how useless stealing is. If you gave them GM merchant it would help the class a lot and it doesn't fit with Clerics anyway. Sure disarm is nice, but you get rings for that so even a knight with basic disarm can handle almost any chest, and you have regeneration for any that he can't.


Been thinking about that too... maybe you're right and the levels should be swapped between the Cleric and the Thief. But then the Paladin would need to lose Master too. Oh well.

Add master sword to rangers. This is the reason they never scale on damage. You can enchant both weapons with inferno (even solo since they now have master fire!) and would actually deal a lot of damage.


Well what do you mean they don't scale? They do, they have Master Axe which gives them +1 to damage per point of skill. Pump 20 into Axe and you're good to go. Also, the dual-wielding bug I mentioned will keep a left-handed sword wielded in addition to an axe from being effective - the more you pump into Axe, the more the damage bonus from the sword will be negated, ultimately making the single-handed axe have better damage than two weapons together.

You might as well get rid of GM staff for monks because of how the recovery time causes monks to deal more damage without a weapon even factoring in GM staff.


Yeah, this is indeed a problem. But I don't think we should deny people the option - the monk also has Armsmaster which reduces recovery time, and belts and other items with bonuses to it can be easily found. I would rather that the staff got a reduced recovery penalty upon GMing it, but that's something Grayface would need to look into, and probably won't, since most people already feel Monks are overpowered as is.

Knights need to have body building reduced to master level. They already have the best damage in the game for the first 2/3 of the game (and pretty strong even lategame), fast recovery time, best armor in the game, and best weapon skills in the game (not to mention how absurdly overpowered GM armsmaster is). They shouldn't be able to stack 800 hp pretty easily on top of all that.


Maybe you're right about that, but notice that Monks do have GM in Bodybuilding and their armor class tends to surpass even Knights lategame - GM Dodging + M Leather is even more overpowered than GM Plate + GM Shield. A monk with 20 in Unarmed, Dodging and Leather will be so hard to hit that he doesn't really need the GM in BB either. I say we leave it for both of them as of right now and think harder about this.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 25 2014, 0:15

Another balance update draft: updates to the files will be made tomorrow, I think.

I have noticed that due to buffing the magical classes I have created a situation where a class jumps two levels of mastery after a single promotion, such as BEGG for the Archer's Elemental Magic schools. This really doesn't seem too smooth, hence I think I will be reverting to a more logical progression of EMGG, (and -EMM for the Ranger).

But what it needs in return is making the Cleric and Sorcerer stand out even more from the crowd as spellcasters. Therefore I think their own magic progressions should be elevated from EMGG to MMGG. This will keep all the other classes logically inferior. Druids and the hybrid classes will still require a promotion to get access to Master in their magic schools.

To compensate and give players an incentive to do the Priest and Wizard quests, Meditation will be restricted to EMGG for Sorcerers and EMMM for Clerics. Sorcerers will also get a restriction on ID Item, ID Monster, Learning and Alchemy, while Clerics will get one on Merchant. Merchant will also be knocked down to Master for Clerics and elevated to GM for Thieves as per Arret's suggestion. As a consequence, Paladins will return to Expert to balance them.

Also, giving the Paladin Master in Spear in place of the Archer is starting to sound like a good idea to me. Unlike the Archer, the Paladin could at least make use of a one-handed spear with a shield in the left hand. Maces will still usually be preferred due to a paralysis chance, but Spears will be a very reliable alternative - better than swords if you insist on using a shield too. For that reason and the fact that the Paladin relies on his Shield a lot, he will no longer be able to get Master Sword. Though it seems logical that he should, there's also no reason he shouldn't get Master in Spear. Dual Swords will now be the Archer's primary melee weapon of choice.

That way we still maintain the weapon balance for the hybrid classes: One GM, one M and some other Expert weapons.
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 25 2014, 0:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Arret » Oct 25 2014, 0:53

Xfing wrote:Using a spear in one hand removes 1d9 from its damage output. Not much, it would seem, but due to the bugged dual-wielding mechanic I made a thread about, even adding in a 2d3+7 dagger in the other hand will still have your total damage less than when wielding a spear in both hands. Unless this is fixed, there is no point at all to mastering the Spear.


Are you including the extra 3-18 fire from the enchant? That's why dual wielding feels so strong, you get a second weapon enchant.


Well what do you mean they don't scale? They do, they have Master Axe which gives them +1 to damage per point of skill. Pump 20 into Axe and you're good to go. Also, the dual-wielding bug I mentioned will keep a left-handed sword wielded in addition to an axe from being effective - the more you pump into Axe, the more the damage bonus from the sword will be negated, ultimately making the single-handed axe have better damage than two weapons together.


Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant giving them master sword at 2nd promotion. 1 damage per skill up in axe isn't a big deal because it still doesn't do anything for recovery time, not to mention just how bad GM is. Again I'm assuming an extra 3-18 (or 9-12 ice, or 12 body, etc). Especially with a ranger, those extra skill points would logically be going into magic/misc skills rather than a flat damage increase or maybe even bow rather than pushing to level 20 in axe.

Maybe you're right about that, but notice that Monks do have GM in Bodybuilding and their armor class tends to surpass even Knights lategame - GM Dodging + M Leather is even more overpowered than GM Plate + GM Shield. A monk with 20 in Unarmed, Dodging and Leather will be so hard to hit that he doesn't really need the GM in BB either. I say we leave it for both of them as of right now and think harder about this.


The reason is knights are too strong over the course of the game. Monks start off very weak until you get master unarmed which requires doing the Cleric promotion and traveling to Evernmorn. Knights deal tons of damage from sword/spear/armsmaster combo from the start allowing master of all 3 without any kind of promotion/travel/quest.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 25 2014, 1:05

Arret wrote:
Are you including the extra 3-18 fire from the enchant? That's why dual wielding feels so strong, you get a second weapon enchant.


Right... but you can get expert Dagger with a Ranger as is, and use it along with an axe. No need for getting swords dragged into this IMO.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant giving them master sword at 2nd promotion. 1 damage per skill up in axe isn't a big deal because it still doesn't do anything for recovery time, not to mention just how bad GM is. Again I'm assuming an extra 3-18 (or 9-12 ice, or 12 body, etc). Especially with a ranger, those extra skill points would logically be going into magic/misc skills rather than a flat damage increase or maybe even bow rather than pushing to level 20 in axe.


Reduced recovery time is an Expert Axe perk. It used to not work, but Grayface has fixed it and now it does. Armsmaster also does this at Basic, and Ranger can get the skill up to Expert anyway. A single-handed axe can be supplemented with a dagger in the left hand as of now, and that dagger might as well have an "of the Dragon" enchantment on it.

Also, notice that the Ranger now gets Master in Spirit Magic, so he can buff himself more effectively with Bless and Heroism (provided he's the only Self caster on the team). But I personally never thought Rangers were underpowered in melee combat, they were in fact better than Archers in it and better than Paladins too in terms of pure damage (not counting the uber useful paralysis chance).

The reason is knights are too strong over the course of the game. Monks start off very weak until you get master unarmed which requires doing the Cleric promotion and traveling to Evernmorn. Knights deal tons of damage from sword/spear/armsmaster combo from the start allowing master of all 3 without any kind of promotion/travel/quest.


Agreed, monks do start out weak and only become powerful in late game. I suggest we remedy this by restricting the Knight with a promotion requirement for Master in his most crucial skill: Armsmaster. Of course we would have to follow suit with the Monk and the Thief, who can also get Master in Armsmaster, so it's probably not worth the bother.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 25 2014, 10:16

Ok, let's get to changin'!

Thief:
Merchant: MMMM -> MMGG

Paladin:

Self Magic: BEGG -> EMGG
Sword: MMMM -> EEEE
Spear: EEEE -> MMMM
Merchant: MMMM -> EEEE

Archer:

Elemental Magic: BEGG -> EMGG


Ranger:

Magic: -BMM -> -EMM

Cleric:

Self Magic: EMGG -> MMGG
Merchant: MMGG -> EMMM
Meditation: MMMM -> EMMM

Sorcerer:

Elemental Magic: EMGG -> MMGG
ID Item: MMGG -> EMGG
ID Monster: MMMM -> EMMM
Meditation: MMGG -> EMGG
Learning: MMMM -> EMMM
Alchemy: MMMM -> EMMM

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Postby Schopenhauer » Oct 26 2014, 2:46

Looking good.

Are you still planning on adding a monster spawn modification?

What would you say is reasonable?

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Postby Xfing » Oct 26 2014, 15:41

Schopenhauer wrote:Looking good.

Are you still planning on adding a monster spawn modification?

What would you say is reasonable?


I'm only editing character skill levels, a spawn mod would have to be done separately I'm afraid. But look around in this thread, one spawn mod has been posted and it works quite fine.

I made a Knight Thief Druid Sorcerer party to test out now and I'm using this spawn mod. The game's so much fun.

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Postby Xfing » Oct 29 2014, 2:13

Okay, still playing the game with the spawn mod... Entire party is already Level 25 and I still haven't even done the barrows or the Rescue the Dwarves mission. I cleaned out the Tidewater Cavern on level 11, but it took me like at least 3,5 hours of real life time! Now that's what I call an adventure!

Having access to Fly, Invisibility and Town Portal right off the bat is kinda helpful, but doesn't unbalance the game in the slightest considering the increased number as well as health of enemies. Lord Markham's manor is a death trap and sneaking through the guards to the vase and back out is simply impossible, there are way too many guards - so unless you're strong enough to take care of them all (which should be no lower than level 50, truthfully), you really have no business going there, which makes one of the easiest first promotion quests the single hardest one. The only alternative is to already have a GM in Water Magic to teleport you out of the manor. Telekinesis could also help, but you'll still be overrun before you execute it and flee. What a mess.

Other areas are more rewarding, though - like the aforementioned Tidewater Cavern. There is one issue though - the Water Elementals no longer surround the Titan Stronghold. I'm not really sure whether this was intentional on the author's part.


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