Nicolai's fate *spoilers*

[Bandobras Took]

Oh, and another thing- don't triplepost like that. There's an edit button, and it's easier for everyone else if you use it.

My apologies. I was at work and could not be certain I would have time to do one massive post on my break.

Not quite. There's only one point they have in common- the splitting of the water. Everything else is quite different.

And there you have it. The only solid thing we've got is that both stories will have a king become undead.

The factions involved are a result of game design. If you've got an Inferno faction, eventually they're going to have to go around conquering somebody. And the Inferno faction was barely a presence in the RoE campaigns; that's why they got such a spotlight in AB, along with other underused factions -- the Dungeon, the Stronghold, the Fortress, and the Tower.

It seems rather premature to say that other things are similar when that could be nothing more than an attempt to tell a story within the limits of a game design.

Notice the nice list I made a while back about character corespondance?

QueenIsabel=QueenCatherine
Agrael/Raelag=LordHaart
Godric=Christian
DemonSovereign=LuciferKreegan
Nicolai=KingGryphonheart, with some Roland thrown in.

But again, this whole setup only works if you assume that Isabel is going to be the one who defeats the bad guys. And even then, I'd still disagree about Christian being a main character in the RoE campaign -- he's only there because they force you to have him as a character, but he's fundamentally unimportant to the story. Morgan Kendall is a much better parallel for Godric as far as I can tell.

Not to mention that the DemonSovereign, if he's in charge, would have to be Finneas Vilmar -- the Kreegan were not the instigators of the events in RoE, though they took advantage of Erathia's weakness.

Which is to say that I understand where you're coming from and even see how it works -- but it relies on the assumption that Isabel will be fighting all the bad guys from start to finish. That's what I'm arguing with. Her oath at the end of the Demo Campaign seems to indicate the first steps down a path of Heresy, if you will. Anger with your god=seek out the aid of the opposing path.

Which they wanted to do in the old universe, also. MMVII, anyone? The Necromancers and the Wizards hated each other. (And they still do, apparently, despite the “new” universe.)

Yes and No. In the Heroes games themselves, the Wizards are more often the Rivals of the Warlocks -- Roland vs. Archibald, Titans vs. Black Dragons, etc. And while people like Vidomina may have fallen to the Necromancer's side from the Wizards, so did Knights like Lord Haart. In MMVII, the Wizards were the enemies of the Necromancers, but in the same game, we find the elves of Av Lee as the fierce enemies of the Gryphonhearts. I'm not sure that MMVII is enough to say that the Wizards are to be considered as always having been the main enemies of the Necromancers.

Just as re-animating King Gryphonheart would have helped them. After all, if they had been able to use him to successfully taken over Erathia it would have been an ‘alliance’ of sorts with the most powerful country in Antagarich.

That's a bit of a stretch. There's a major difference between persuading a kingdom to your point of view and murdering them into it. To have raised King Gryphonheart and then declared peace with Erathia because the rulers were related -- that would have been an alliance that left the Necromancers free to exterminate the Elves or Wizards.

To recap: the only solid similarity I'm seeing so far is that a king gets made undead at some point. The others I've seen rely on assumptions (Isabel will beat up all the bad guys; the Necromancers are behind it all) or inevitable gameplay elements (the Inferno wants to conquer somebody).

[ThunderTitan]

Finneas Vilmar was a fool, and Sandro was the mastermind. And Lucifer Kreegan was in AB. And in RoE the Demons conquered Stedwick. Half the campaign is about them, and the other about the Necromancers.

And don't tell me that Isabel is not going to kick ass, as they did make her Character nr. 1! For crying out loud, it's called Queen Isabel's War!

Oh, and even Nicolai being undead isn't 100% sure.

Good night.

[Bandobras Took]

Finneas Vilmar was a fool, and Sandro was the mastermind. And Lucifer Kreegan was in AB. And in RoE the Demons conquered Stedwick. Half the campaign is about them, and the other about the Necromancers.
Good night.

But to be fair, we can't include expansion campaigns. It must be strictly RoE for comparison. And in that case, Sandro was in prison. It wasn't his fault that he got rescued.

And only two maps in all of the RoE campaigns are about the Kreegan -- killing the Gold Dragon and the Ransom for Roland. It was the Dungeon Overlords that took Steadwick -- at least, if the underground tunnels and relative number of towns in the Recapturing Steadwick map have anything to do with it.

[Gaidal Cain]

Not quite. There's only one point they have in common- the splitting of the water. Everything else is quite different.

And there you have it. The only solid thing we've got is that both stories will have a king become undead.

Not quite the same: in the one case, it's a small event, and in the other, it's quite certain to be a central plot element. There was really nothing in the story that made it 100% necessary that Jean would save the rest from an incoming flood- it was conveinent, but the water wasn't the important thing in the scene.

The factions involved are a result of game design. If you've got an Inferno faction, eventually they're going to have to go around conquering somebody. And the Inferno faction was barely a presence in the RoE campaigns; that's why they got such a spotlight in AB, along with other underused factions -- the Dungeon, the Stronghold, the Fortress, and the Tower.

Actually, one could have the Demons and the Necromancers switch roles and have a story that would work quite OK...

But to be fair, we can't include expansion campaigns. It must be strictly RoE for comparison. And in that case, Sandro was in prison. It wasn't his fault that he got rescued.

Why? They're part of the story as well. If the whole campaign setup had been similar to what happened to Sandro just prior to and during the restoration war, I would've complained as much, even if it was spread out over two games....

[Akul]

About Agrael and Raelag:
https://www.celestialheavens.com/486 - Raelag
https://www.celestialheavens.com/513 - Agrael

This should clear the things.

[Akul]

And in RoE the Demons conquered Stedwick.

Nighon conquered Steadwick by either attacking the castle or by geting it from demons. Demons had a minor role in RoE.
You must know the story before you talk about it

Oh, and even Nicolai being undead isn't 100% sure.

Good old Nicolai. I alredy see that he is the one responsible for the war because he started a war here

[ThunderTitan]

What?! Nighon conquered Steadwick?! Since when? The intro movie clearly stated that both Nighon and Eeofol forces have barricaded themselves in the city. You just assumed that because there are more Dungeons than Infernos, but that's because 3 of their cities are underground. The Dungeon Overlord where more like mercenaries.

And notice how "nothing is known about Raelag's past"?

[Akul]

What?! Nighon conquered Steadwick?! Since when? The intro movie clearly stated that both Nighon and Eeofol forces have barricaded themselves in the city. You just assumed that because there are more Dungeons than Infernos, but that's because 3 of their cities are underground. The Dungeon Overlord where more like mercenaries.

And notice how "nothing is known about Raelag's past"?

Nighon had the major role as they planed. Kreegans were just a help in war. Even Catherine tells that Eofol had a minor role during the Restoration War. And even during the campaigns it can be seen that Nighon is the faction most people talk about and it is Nighon who talks during "Dumgeons and Devils" campaign and it is Nighon who has bases in first map of human campaign and it is Nighon who attacked wizards during the H3 intro. Too much of Nighon in the story.

Agreal and Raelag:
That just confirms that he isn't Agrael because during the war a traitor would be known. And bios's aren't similiar. Bios of Rhaelag confirms that Raelag is known for very long time. Else it would be writen that he was a demon cultist before.

[ThunderTitan]

The demons attacked the Elves, and the Dungeon was important because their tunnels alowed both of them to take Steadwick. And the Wizards and Warlocks killing eachother plays perfectly into their opposing themes (B.Dragon/Titan)!

About Agrael/Raelag:

Sure, they should make the bio read: Raelag is actualy Agrael's identity in the dungeon, and he'll betray the demons and then get killed by Isabel and/or Nicolai. Just so you know I saw the bio long before this thread started.

Also:

Raelag
Nothing is known of Raelag’s past, and though he is direct and ruthless in battle his plans and tactics are kept as secret as his personal history. Because he often out-thinks, outflanks, and outmaneuvers his opponents, they move with a great deal of hesitation when facing him in battle. When up against this wily and intimidating warrior, his enemies often find themselves second-guessing their own plans.

Notice how there's nothing about how long he's been known, and the fact that his special is the reverse of Agraels? And ur kinda missing the point, which was that Agrael is actualy a Dark Elf in disguise. Notice what mount he was in the demo?

[Orfinn]

The demons attacked the Elves, and the Dungeon was important because their tunnels alowed both of them to take Steadwick. And the Wizards and Warlocks killing eachother plays perfectly into their opposing themes (B.Dragon/Titan)!

About Agrael/Raelag:

Sure, they should make the bio read: Raelag is actualy Agrael's identity in the dungeon, and he'll betray the demons and then get killed by Isabel and/or Nicolai. Just so you know I saw the bio long before this thread started.

Also:

Raelag
Nothing is known of Raelag’s past, and though he is direct and ruthless in battle his plans and tactics are kept as secret as his personal history. Because he often out-thinks, outflanks, and outmaneuvers his opponents, they move with a great deal of hesitation when facing him in battle. When up against this wily and intimidating warrior, his enemies often find themselves second-guessing their own plans.

Notice how there's nothing about how long he's been known, and the fact that his special is the reverse of Agraels? And ur kinda missing the point, which was that Agrael is actualy a Dark Elf in disguise. Notice what mount he was in the demo?

Yep, exactly! And except the dino pet Ag is riding, Agraels red armor nicely cover in what he could be, a dark elf in disguise. It would be a different matter if we clearly have seen a demon instead of a armor clad guy, like Erasiel or any other demon.

[Akul]

The demons attacked the Elves, and the Dungeon was important because their tunnels alowed both of them to take Steadwick. And the Wizards and Warlocks killing eachother plays perfectly into their opposing themes (B.Dragon/Titan)!

Demons didn't attack elven faction. They just attacked elves who lived in Erathia.

About Agrael/Raelag:

Sure, they should make the bio read: Raelag is actualy Agrael's identity in the dungeon, and he'll betray the demons and then get killed by Isabel and/or Nicolai. Just so you know I saw the bio long before this thread started.

Also:

Raelag
Nothing is known of Raelag’s past, and though he is direct and ruthless in battle his plans and tactics are kept as secret as his personal history. Because he often out-thinks, outflanks, and outmaneuvers his opponents, they move with a great deal of hesitation when facing him in battle. When up against this wily and intimidating warrior, his enemies often find themselves second-guessing their own plans.

Notice how there's nothing about how long he's been known, and the fact that his special is the reverse of Agraels? And ur kinda missing the point, which was that Agrael is actualy a Dark Elf in disguise. Notice what mount he was in the demo?

[/quote]

Who told they should write it that way? I told that it would be writen this way: "Raelag was demon Sovereign's right hand until something happened. Now he and his talents help the dark elven queen." Or something else as player would know that they are the same characters and it would be writen there.

And with longer time known I think about that that his bio woud be more secretive. And not knowing about his past is posible because elves live very long time.

And just because you reversed the name doesn't mean that they are the same persons. If there was Luke in Academy and Lucas in Necropolis, you would think that they are the same persons. Name is just a name.

P. S. I don't know which mount he had in demo because I don't have it! I know that he isn't a demon and I know that he is a demon spy. He could be a Dark Elf, but I don't believe he is Raelag.

[ThunderTitan]

He has a lizard mount. There are screen shots on the forum. And Raelag is a campaign hero. Why the heck would they just give away the whole story in his bio. The revelation that Agrael is Raelag could come smack in the middle of the Dungeon campaign, or maybe even in the last campaign.


The demons attacked the Gold Dragon's Queen, the dragons are from the Rampart. Wouldn't that kinda mean they attacked an important ally of the elves faction? Thus attacking the elven faction?

[Bandobras Took]

Yes, but it's still only one map. In both the Fall of Steadwick and its recapturing, the Inferno plays a nearly nonexistent role. In the last map of Long Live the Queen, there aren't even any Infernos around to conquer.

But to be fair, we can't include expansion campaigns. It must be strictly RoE for comparison. And in that case, Sandro was in prison. It wasn't his fault that he got rescued. smile

Why? They're part of the story as well. If the whole campaign setup had been similar to what happened to Sandro just prior to and during the restoration war, I would've complained as much, even if it was spread out over two games....

This was a response to Thunder Titan's list of character parallels. If we're going to assign character parallels, we must either:

1) consider the story of H5 strictly against RoE. Otherwise we're drawing from three or four separate stories.

2) wait for expansions on H5 to give us more stories to draw upon.

Anything else is just a reach. The basic complaint has been that that the story in H5 is too similar to the one in RoE. If you have to include the stories in AB and SoD in order to make the claim workable, you weaken the case by saying that RoE is insufficient to contain everything in the H5 campaign. By extension, this would mean that the raising of Nicolai is only one subset of H5's story, because you have to go looking at stories in H3 where a king is not raised from the dead.

[ThunderTitan]

Wait, the map where you can take Steadwick you can chose if you want to play with Inferno or Dungeon Heroes.

And the character parallels don't restrict us to RoE. It's not like they only appeared in RoE, or that SoD's story doesn't link at all with RoE.


And Sauron, why are you arguing when you haven't even played the Demo, or even seem the screens with Agrael?! Ur entire opinion is based on what U read here? What's up with that?

[Bandobras Took]

Wait, the map where you can take Steadwick you can chose if you want to play with Inferno or Dungeon Heroes.

That's true. I'll upgrade the map count two two and a half, but that still doesn't make the Inferno anything close to a major player in the RoE campaign.

And the character parallels don't restrict us to RoE. It's not like they only appeared in RoE, or that SoD's story doesn't link at all with RoE.

Perhaps a parallel example will serve here:

Suppose I were arguing that the H5 campaign is a rip-off of the Half-Dead campaign from H4 because both feature raising someone from the dead (Mardor) and large-scale battles against a Demon Insurgence.

Suppose you then point out that there's a lack of a beautiful female character, and this pokes a rather large hole in my argument.

If I then respond with, "But the Order Campaign of Heroes IV featured the beautiful female character, and the two stories are linked because they mention each other," what has become of my original argument?

It's no longer valid. I have to change it to say that the Heroes V campaign has elements with similarities to elements from the campaigns in Heroes IV.

Suppose it is true that you can find parallels in the H5 campaign if you take every other campaign that NWC or 3DO ever put forth. So what? If you take a large enough sample, it's going to happen.

If we're going to complain about the correspondence between Nicolai and King Gryphonheart both being raised, then we need to keep it with RoE. Otherwise we're just saying what everybody already knows: you can find similarities between any two stories. Which means that we don't have much of a complaint.

[Akul]

And Sauron, why are you arguing when you haven't even played the Demo, or even seem the screens with Agrael?! Ur entire opinion is based on what U read here? What's up with that?

I have alredy seen the screen with Agrael. Just don't think that Raelag and he are the same person
Agrael is a spy and is not a demon, we know that even before we saw the bios's. And who is a better spy then a Dark Elf? Agreal=Raelag is a guess, not a fact. Undead betrayal is a guess, not a fact. All guesses and very little facts.

And why am I here? Too see your silly comparisons

If we're going to complain about the correspondence between Nicolai and King Gryphonheart both being raised, then we need to keep it with RoE. Otherwise we're just saying what everybody already knows: you can find similarities between any two stories. Which means that we don't have much of a complaint.

Totaly agree

[ThunderTitan]

@Took:
We'll the whole war in RoE was caused by Sandro's backup plan from SoD. And the event's of AB spun out of the Death of the former Demon ruler at some time in RoE. Ur also forgeting the whole Demons have Roland, get him back map.

The Half-Dead campaign had a beautiful female Priest. Gauldroth tricked her into activating the last point of power or whatever, which killed her. And the campaign in H3 were linked by a continuing storyline, just not all of them. The SoD bonus one->RoE->AB, the campaign, not expansion. The H4 ones just happened in the same world.

Oh, and i just checked out the story for RoE again, and guess what? The undead do ally with Catherine against her father. They just changed around the order of events.

And there are stories that have no similarities. The one that do it's mostly because they're inspired by common sources, or one from another.

@Sauron:
Yes, their guesses, but so are yours! And how the heck did you know about Agrael?

[Bandobras Took]

@Took:
We'll the whole war in RoE was caused by Sandro's backup plan from SoD. And the event's of AB spun out of the Death of the former Demon ruler at some time in RoE. Ur also forgeting the whole Demons have Roland, get him back map.

Yes, but the essential point remains: If you have to pull Catherine from RoE for one similarity, Sandro from SoD for another, and the Kreegan from AB for another, you've not got much of a specific similarity. You're pulling things out of a grab-bag.

And I am including the Roland Map. Two and half maps out 20 doesn't really qualify them as a focus of the campaign.

The Half-Dead campaign had a beautiful female Priest. Gauldroth tricked her into activating the last point of power or whatever, which killed her.

I know, but she's not a playable character, and so can't fit the Isabel slot. The whole point is that the similarities between campaigns are where you find them . . . based on the points I listed, we've got as strong a case for a rip-off of the H4 campaigns as for the rip-off of H3 campaigns. Which leads into . . .

And the campaign in H3 were linked by a continuing storyline, just not all of them. The SoD bonus one->RoE->AB, the campaign, not expansion. The H4 ones just happened in the same world.

But they do interact. The Order and Death campaigns of H4 specifically make reference to each other.

Oh, and i just checked out the story for RoE again, and guess what? The undead do ally with Catherine against her father. They just changed around the order of events.

And there are stories that have no similarities. The one that do it's mostly because they're inspired by common sources, or one from another.

Now, we're getting somewhere. For the H5 campaign to qualify as a rip-off of the H3 campaign (or campaigns, if you want to broaden the argument):

1) The King must be killed, and this must spark an invasion . . .

. . . however, it seems that the King in H5 gets killed halfway through, when the invasion is already in full swing.

2) The Queen must rally her troops against the threat . . .

. . . this happens, but it's principally a generic thing; Godric and Beatrice are also trying to rally troops.

3) The King must be raised as an undead to lead the same faction that killed him . . .

. . . and nothing less will suffice. If an entirely different faction raises the King, that's enough of a difference in the storyline.

4) The Queen must receive help from a splinter group within the faction that started the war . . .

. . . up in the air. In depends upon what Agrael/Raelag decides to do with himself through the campaigns, I think.

5) The Queen must lead her forces to victory against the bad guys.

. . . also up in the air. What I've seen in the campaign leads me to think that at least a part of the human faction will become the bad guys.

I think that's the essential list for a rip-off. One of them, we've got, but it's the one that was most likely to be similar, anyway. Most of the others are up in the air, and we'll have to adopt a "wait and see" mode. This is why I feel it's too early to be complaining about the H5 campaign being a replica of any other.

[Gaidal Cain]

Yes, but the essential point remains: If you have to pull Catherine from RoE for one similarity, Sandro from SoD for another, and the Kreegan from AB for another, you've not got much of a specific similarity. You're pulling things out of a grab-bag.

Not so. They're all part of a continous storyarc. Exactly what happened in a specific campaign isn't very relevant.

I know, but she's not a playable character, and so can't fit the Isabel slot. The whole point is that the similarities between campaigns are where you find them . . . based on the points I listed, we've got as strong a case for a rip-off of the H4 campaigns as for the rip-off of H3 campaigns. Which leads into . . .

You may think so. Only proves that you can't distinguish plot from story elements. Mardor was an element of the story, but he wasn't crucial in a way that he couldn't have been replaced by something playing a similar role.

But they do interact. The Order and Death campaigns of H4 specifically make reference to each other.

Please. Two events in the death campaign that has no impact on gameplay whatsoever, and you're calling it interaction?

1) The King must be killed, and this must spark an invasion . . .

. . . however, it seems that the King in H5 gets killed halfway through, when the invasion is already in full swing.

Not quite. The king was killed as part of the invasion plans. Something similar apparantly goes on in the H5 campaign as well...

. . . this happens, but it's principally a generic thing; Godric and Beatrice are also trying to rally troops.

It's also such a general thing that it's hardly worth mentioning. A country being invaded by demons are going to rally, and if you're the heir to said country, you're probably going to get involved in that effort...

3) The King must be raised as an undead to lead the same faction that killed him . . .

. . . and nothing less will suffice. If an entirely different faction raises the King, that's enough of a difference in the storyline.

Actually, I could live with some variations if enough other points are fulfilled.

4) The Queen must receive help from a splinter group within the faction that started the war . . .

. . . up in the air. In depends upon what Agrael/Raelag decides to do with himself through the campaigns, I think.

5) The Queen must lead her forces to victory against the bad guys.

. . . also up in the air. What I've seen in the campaign leads me to think that at least a part of the human faction will become the bad guys.

Actually, I'd say that the Queen leading her armies together with a splinetr group to defeat her undead father/husband would be enough. You're again confusing plot with specific elements...

I think that's the essential list for a rip-off. One of them, we've got, but it's the one that was most likely to be similar, anyway. Most of the others are up in the air, and we'll have to adopt a "wait and see" mode. This is why I feel it's too early to be complaining about the H5 campaign being a replica of any other.

I'd say that having even two or three of these would be enough to feel dissapointed with Ubisoft for either copying an old story or not doing their homework on previous storylines. It doesn't have to be an exact fit.

[Bandobras Took]

On the whole, I agree with you. So long as we're not jumping the gun on the complaints.

One or two minor quibbles, and I'll have done:

I was deliberately exaggerating the H4 idea to show that most of the similarities people have been working on are based on shaky premises.

And I'd put it at three or four of the list rather than two or three, but maybe I'm a bit more forgiving with my TBS Storytelling expectations.