Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 05 Feb 2024, 10:29

Terelyn wrote: 03 Feb 2024, 23:02 The game crashes if you attempt to enter the Blades' End in New Sorpigal before purchasing membership. I'm using the lastest version of the Merge with Revamp.
Works for me. Have you deleted Scripts directory before copying Revamp files?
Or do you use some localization?
Last edited by cthscr on 05 Feb 2024, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 05 Feb 2024, 10:36

raekuul wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 14:52 It works in MM6 because MM6 didn't lock anything behind masteries to begin with (even the Baa Temple's Perception requirement - you just need to have a high enough perception score that just happens to be what you'd have with Expert 4)
I'd say that's because CheckSkill was bugged in vanilla MM6-8: Expert 4 wouldn't pass check for Normal 4. (I considered it a bug and put a fix for it in Comm/Revamp.)

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 05 Feb 2024, 10:42

toadking wrote: 01 Feb 2024, 00:25 Excuse me, the magic resistance in the game can only reach 255. Is there a way to break through the limit of 255?
Yes, several asmpatches in proc 0x4485EC (twice near 0x448A00 for Base Resistance, twice near 0x448A6A for BonusResistance).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby raekuul » 05 Feb 2024, 12:45

cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 10:36
raekuul wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 14:52 It works in MM6 because MM6 didn't lock anything behind masteries to begin with (even the Baa Temple's Perception requirement - you just need to have a high enough perception score that just happens to be what you'd have with Expert 4)
I'd say that's because CheckSkill was bugged in vanilla MM6-8: Expert 4 wouldn't pass check for Normal 4. (I considered it a bug and put a fix for it in Comm/Revamp.)
well no i mean Expert 4 is equivalent to Novice 8, and that is enough to open a door to the inner corridors at Kriegspire Baa, so you can clear the game with just skill ranks and not masteries (one of the doors has the wrong value set but Expert 4 is enough to get in and do the required stuff). MM7 introduced more unique effects at higher masteries (axe cutting armor class, for example) while in MM6 it was only really spells that were properly differentiated by mastery level.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby toadking » 05 Feb 2024, 12:56

cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 10:42
toadking wrote: 01 Feb 2024, 00:25 Excuse me, the magic resistance in the game can only reach 255. Is there a way to break through the limit of 255?
Yes, several asmpatches in proc 0x4485EC (twice near 0x448A00 for Base Resistance, twice near 0x448A6A for BonusResistance).
ASM scripts are a bit difficult for me. Is it possible for future versions to include this feature,break through the limit of 255?

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 05 Feb 2024, 13:49

raekuul wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 12:45
cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 10:36
raekuul wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 14:52 It works in MM6 because MM6 didn't lock anything behind masteries to begin with (even the Baa Temple's Perception requirement - you just need to have a high enough perception score that just happens to be what you'd have with Expert 4)
I'd say that's because CheckSkill was bugged in vanilla MM6-8: Expert 4 wouldn't pass check for Normal 4. (I considered it a bug and put a fix for it in Comm/Revamp.)
well no i mean Expert 4 is equivalent to Novice 8, and that is enough to open a door to the inner corridors at Kriegspire Baa, so you can clear the game with just skill ranks and not masteries (one of the doors has the wrong value set but Expert 4 is enough to get in and do the required stuff). MM7 introduced more unique effects at higher masteries (axe cutting armor class, for example) while in MM6 it was only really spells that were properly differentiated by mastery level.
Expert 4 isn't equal to Novice 8 in evt.CheckSkill. Check wouldn't be passed. Game hint is wrong. There was an issue about it in Merge.

Code: Select all

> Party[0].Skills[0]=JoinSkill(8,1)
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 1, 8)
  true
> Party[0].Skills[0]=JoinSkill(4,2)
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 1, 8)
  false
I said wrong thing before, Expert 4 would pass Normal 4 check, it's Master 4 who wouldn't pass Expert 4 check.

Code: Select all

> Party[0].Skills[0]=JoinSkill(4,2)
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 1, 4)
  true
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 2, 4)
  true
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 3, 4)
  false
> Party[0].Skills[0]=JoinSkill(4,3)
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 1, 4)
  true
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 2, 4)
  false
> evt.CheckSkill(0, 3, 4)
  true

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 05 Feb 2024, 15:20

toadking wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 12:56
cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 10:42
toadking wrote: 01 Feb 2024, 00:25 Excuse me, the magic resistance in the game can only reach 255. Is there a way to break through the limit of 255?
Yes, several asmpatches in proc 0x4485EC (twice near 0x448A00 for Base Resistance, twice near 0x448A6A for BonusResistance).
ASM scripts are a bit difficult for me. Is it possible for future versions to include this feature,break through the limit of 255?
Commit 82f4685e. In vanilla increasing resistance (for both base and bonus) will reduce it to 255 if it was bigger than 255 initially. I don't think this behavior should be preserved. So, ResistancesEvtBaseMax and ResistancesEvtBonusMax in Data/Tables/ModSettings.txt, default values for Revamp are 32000 now.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Terelyn » 05 Feb 2024, 15:57

cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 10:29
Terelyn wrote: 03 Feb 2024, 23:02 The game crashes if you attempt to enter the Blades' End in New Sorpigal before purchasing membership. I'm using the lastest version of the Merge with Revamp.
Works for me. Have you deleted Scripts directory before copying Revamp files?
Or do you use some localization?
It works now. I forgot to set compatibility mode to win XP SP2.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby toadking » 05 Feb 2024, 15:59

cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 15:20
toadking wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 12:56
cthscr wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 10:42
Yes, several asmpatches in proc 0x4485EC (twice near 0x448A00 for Base Resistance, twice near 0x448A6A for BonusResistance).
ASM scripts are a bit difficult for me. Is it possible for future versions to include this feature,break through the limit of 255?
Commit 82f4685e. In vanilla increasing resistance (for both base and bonus) will reduce it to 255 if it was bigger than 255 initially. I don't think this behavior should be preserved. So, ResistancesEvtBaseMax and ResistancesEvtBonusMax in Data/Tables/ModSettings.txt, default values for Revamp are 32000 now.
Thank you for your strong help. I don't need to worry about magic resistance now. :tsup:

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Macros the Black » 07 Feb 2024, 23:59

I fiiinally got around to finishing my first playthrough! It took me way too long...

But I did take notes for feedback along the way. I have more but I'll keep it to the most basic/important stuff for now.

I found that actually playing through all 3 games with one party is an awesome idea but it's almost too much content... In practice I actually liked some of the quality of life changes that the mod brings the most, like getting a lot of the MM7/8 improvements added to MM6, and being able to play different race/class combinations from all 3 games. As well as the added spell hotkeys and monster bolstering (or at least, I like the idea of monster bolstering).

That said, I don't know what all the plans are but I think if there is still work being done on this mod then adding more of those kinds of improvements and maybe some extra content here and there throughout the continents would be the best way to improve the mod going forward. At least that's just my impression for now; and I don't yet know what some of the different versions of the merge mod offer in comparison so maybe some of these suggestions already exist in some form.

I think Bolstering can still be fine-tuned a bit more. This could involve testing different scalings for each stat that changes how fast it increases at different level brackets with expected items for those levels. There should still be variety in threat level among enemies. But the way I experienced it was that early on in the game enabling bolstering made things too difficult a bit too quickly. Midgame (or lategame for your first continent), even with bolstering everything seemed a bit too easy. Then in the lategame having played more than one continent, enemies start getting enormous hit point pools even with the hit point scaling set very low, and their damage just doesn't seem to grow fast enough relative to hit points gained on level up for the party. (maybe it's because Light Magic is OP) Except for some spells which can be very dangerous, especially AOE spells. So most areas of the game are boring and only Mass Distortion does meaningful damage to enemies but they can't really threaten you either, and then suddenly you visit The Pit and your party dies in 2 seconds. The way the scaling works could still use some finetuning imo. Maybe it needs different growth speeds for level 1-50 and 51+, or something like that.

I've read before that having a maximum of 4 mob types per area/dungeon was a self-imposed limit and isn't actually a limitation of the engine or the way the game is scripted. If true, that means a lot more variety of enemies could potentially be placed throughout the gameworld. Like adding Lizardman Archers to Daggerwound as guards, or adding more types of undead in all the dungeons they should logically be found in etc. And some fun surprises could be done, like having enemies show up in unexpected but fitting places (for example Gargoyles and/or Golems in the hidden compartment ambush trap in Agar's Laboratory instead of just more of the regular enemies).

And adding more named boss enemies / making named boss enemies actually have different stats, abilities, and spells from their regular counterparts would be a fun idea.

Would also be nice if shop opening times in Enroth could be standardized to follow the same rules as the MM7 and MM8 shops, with them all opening and closing at 6 AM and 6 PM, respectively. And I find it really handy that Deyja, The Pit, and Nighon have reversed opening times, allowing you to sell gear at any time without having to wait or sleep all the time. Would be fun if this could also be implemented in “evil” towns in Enroth and Jadame: so Mire of the Damned and Shadowspire. (Blackshire is also kind of an evil town, but the citizens are werewolves so they wouldn't be selling anything at night.)

Splitting the MM8 races into a class and a race. Troll class can be Barbarians, Minotaurs can be Defenders, Dark Elves can be just Adventurers / Raiders or more fun: a Pirate class. And then having all the promotion trainers in all the continents. And then adding all the relevant promotion and skill trainers to each continent so one doesn't need to dimension door to learn these things and we can play just one continent if we prefer.

Would also be nice to add MM8 style fixed hirelings to Enroth and Antagarich if possible. There are plenty of unused doors and other places to find where they could be added, or some already existing npcs can be made into hirelings (with the right portraits) if you get creative enough. My idea would be that the focus should be on staying true to the original games but adding things where it makes sense.

One more thing I'll mention for now: the thing I don't like about the MM8 sytle hirelings is that once you have made your team the way you want them, and you've started leveling them, there is often no point in hiring other characters anymore. Especially once you're level 50+. Aside from hiring Cauri early or getting dragons, there's not really that much point to it vs just making your own team. There are other games like for instance Dragon Age, where you also have more hirelings than you can use at once and it's more fun to mix and match them throughout the game. The main difference imo (aside from the hirelings having dialogue and being actual characters in the story) is that every hireling simply levels up as your main character levels up. So everyone is always the same level. I think if this can be implemented in the Merge Mod it would really help make the hireling system more fun. Maybe they can still have a minimum level in which case they just won't level up further until the main character surpasses them, but you can still get rewarded with a higher level character for a bit by doing the relevant quests early. This would also require a change for the Learning skill, but it might be okay to just make the learning bonuses from all active party members + npcs additive for the main character, given how weak the skill currently is.
You'd think Darkmoor was a ghost town, but instead there's plenty of life among the dead.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Xfing » 08 Feb 2024, 19:18

I like all these suggestions. I did remember also feeling like it'd be nice to mesh the units from the 3 games together where it fits. Imagine liches in the Necromancer's Guild for example, the lack of lich enemies kinda underplayed the evil of the Necromancer's Guild in MM8. But that'd require sitting down and thinking what enemies would fit where, don't know what implementation would look like.

As for the other stuff you mentioned, it's just content additions that would require dedicated work - like static hirelings in Enroth for example
- although we do have a "radiant" mechanic for that already + peasants, so there is no dearth of hireable characters.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Avatar86 » 08 Feb 2024, 19:44

Can we make the Peasant class be able to learn ALL skills?!

Wouldn’t that be awesome! How you start from the litteral bottom and make your way to a god! :D

(Yes I know it would take work, but it’s not impossible, we got ”the merge mod” wich no one thought possible…)

Who else likes the idea?
Now, how would we go about it? What hinders are we facing?

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby justl » 09 Feb 2024, 13:18

Xfing wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 12:51
joanthedark wrote: 01 Feb 2024, 14:08 Bad example because Path of Exile allows you to do exactly that and is very successful for it, having a Marauder able to pick up a wand because that's what the randomness of the loot dropped and since you're stranded you gotta make do with what you get, makes it for a huge immersion-building gameplay, rather than immersion-breaking like you state.
PoE is known for its gimmick of having a shared passive tree between all the classes. Still, it later added ascendancies which have drastically narrowed the number of viable paths for each class archetype. What you'd need in MM6-8 is just a class that can learn any skill to any mastery, only then would you have full liberty
the merge is generally highly customizable:
you can edit the skills under data\tables\ (class skills.txt), put boots and helmets on a minotaur (character doll types.txt), choose which races you can select on which continent (character selection.txt)

i'm sure there is a way to do this to artifact edits (good/bad/dontcare) in tables as well
V2: Compendium of mm6-8 Secrets + Details about the base merge and DaveHer's redone merge
https://www.mightandmagicworld.de/fileb ... index.html

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Terelyn » 09 Feb 2024, 13:23

I found some bugs in the Might and Magic 6 section.

1. You can't give harpy feathers to Bonnie Rotterdam in exchange for gold.
2. Clicking on the tree beside the invisible bridge should make it visible in Mire of the Damned.
3. There is a secret room in Gharik's Forge that's inaccessible because it doesn't open when you pull the right lever.
4. The journal doesn't record the location of the teachers.
5. When you join the guilds in Enroth, the journal records them as if you joined in Antagarich.

I'm using the latest version of the merge with revamp. I hope this is the right place to report bugs.
Last edited by Terelyn on 09 Feb 2024, 15:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 09 Feb 2024, 15:15

Terelyn wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 13:23 I found some bugs in the Might and Magic 6 section.

1. You can't give harpy feathers to Bonnie Rotterdam in exchange for gold.
Not a bug. You can but feathers from the Circus only (that aren't reagents).
2. Clicking on the tree beside the invisible bridge should make it visible in Mire of the Damned.
Bridge facets should have some Id set and event 220 should be rewritten to use that id. (Requires map recompile. Both Base and Revamp.)
3. There is a secret room in Gharik's Forge that's inaccessible because it doesn't open when you pull the right the lever.
There's no door with id 53. Someone should create it and assign corresponding facet to it. Editor doesn't seem to let you make it easy way. (Requires map recompile. Both Base and Revamp.)
4. The journal doesn't record the location of the teachers.
Not a bug (but lack of new feature), there were no such records in MM6.
5. When you join the guilds in Enroth, the journal records them as if you joined in Antagarich.
Revamp-specific, Base doesn't distinguish between continents. Fixed, thanks.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Tomsod » 09 Feb 2024, 15:20

cthscr wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 15:15
Terelyn wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 13:23 1. You can't give harpy feathers to Bonnie Rotterdam in exchange for gold.
Not a bug. You can but feathers from the Circus only (that aren't reagents).
No, in vanilla MM6 you can sell all circus items in Free Haven. It's not really worth it, but the option is there.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 09 Feb 2024, 17:01

Tomsod wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 15:20
cthscr wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 15:15
Terelyn wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 13:23 1. You can't give harpy feathers to Bonnie Rotterdam in exchange for gold.
Not a bug. You can but feathers from the Circus only (that aren't reagents).
No, in vanilla MM6 you can sell all circus items in Free Haven. It's not really worth it, but the option is there.
There is MM7's reagent Harpy Feather (Id in MMMerge - 1009). You can't give it to Bonnie. There is MM6's misc item Harpy Feather (id in MMMerge - 2091) with a description "A souvenir from the Circus of the Sun". You can give it to Bonnie.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Tomsod » 09 Feb 2024, 17:10

Oh, my bad, I thought "but" was a typo for "buy". Now I get what you wrote.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby Terelyn » 10 Feb 2024, 09:16

cthscr wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 15:15
Terelyn wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 13:23 I found some bugs in the Might and Magic 6 section.

1. You can't give harpy feathers to Bonnie Rotterdam in exchange for gold.
Not a bug. You can but feathers from the Circus only (that aren't reagents).
I see, my bad.
cthscr wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 15:15 There's no door with id 53. Someone should create it and assign corresponding facet to it. Editor doesn't seem to let you make it easy way. (Requires map recompile. Both Base and Revamp.)
The mod is excellent, but there seems to be some issues with the map here and there.
For example, the bridge in Gharik's Forge seems to be glitchy. I don't know what the issue is, but the screen starts shaking after you step on it. It persists even after crossing it and you have to jump once to return to a normal state.
Also you can't walk up the ramp to the top of the castle in Castle Ironfist. It is very glitchy, it seems like you bounce back from it.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

Unread postby cthscr » 12 Feb 2024, 14:34

cthscr wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 15:15
Terelyn wrote: 09 Feb 2024, 13:23 3. There is a secret room in Gharik's Forge that's inaccessible because it doesn't open when you pull the right the lever.
There's no door with id 53. Someone should create it and assign corresponding facet to it. Editor doesn't seem to let you make it easy way. (Requires map recompile. Both Base and Revamp.)
Haven't thought about Ctrl. So part about Editor isn't true. Should be fixed.
2. Clicking on the tree beside the invisible bridge should make it visible in Mire of the Damned.
Bridge facets should have some Id set and event 220 should be rewritten to use that id. (Requires map recompile. Both Base and Revamp.)
Should be fixed.
Rodril wrote: bump
6d18.{blv,dlv} could be taken from revamp_mm6.games.lod. OUTC3.EVT could be taken from revamp.T.lod and facets from model 4 should get Id=4 (map files for outc3 contain some other changes as well that might not suit Base).


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