Heroes 3: Favorite Barbarian

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Plus the H3 luck doesn't doubles the damage, instead it does a little over the max damage without bless, and does about +25-50% damage with bless.

Huh?

I'm not so sure about this...

As far as I have seen, Luck always double the damage when it triggers.
Are you trying to calculate global damage increase taking the probability into account?

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

Long ago someone told me that only the unmodified damage is doubled. I don't know if that's actually true. If it is though, Luck is pretty useless for a Barbarian.

[Jolly Joker]

It might be interesting to note that a Stronghold Mage Guild cannot have Curse...
In a campaign Fire Magic for a Barbarian may make some sort of sense - later. Given enough time and visited Mage Guilds (of different alignment) everything is possible, and on map 5 of it even a Barbarian can play the Blind/Resurrect game.
Casting expert Blind repeatedly may indeed be a big help in killing insanely large neutral stacks, but that's not the game.

If the pick was indeed Fire Magic or First Aid then this does indeed illustrate the point.

Anyway, beating the normal AI is not what you should aim at - this is quite easy in H3, no matter the difficulty level. One of the reason is that the AI heroes suck and just don't cast no mass spells for example. This is of course different on especially prepared maps or against human players.

You may want to try the Battleground map for Stronghold - you'll have serious opposition there and can test your favorite development against apt AI opponents.

[Yurian Stonebow]

"Sometimes I think I'm going mad
We're loosing all we had and no one seems to care
But in my heart it doesn't change
We've got to rearrange and bring our world some love

And does it really matter
If there's a heaven up above
We sure could use some love

'cause we all live under the same sun
We all walk under the same moon
Then why, why can't we live as one
'cause we all live under the same sky
We all look up at the same stars
Then why, tell me why can't we live as one"

-Scorpions, Under The Same Sun


Indeed, does it really matter? We should concentrate more on things we all agree with than things we disagree. (even if people hammer their point of view through by using capital letters) Still, I hold to my vision how to build a good general. It suites my style and plays along the semi-random way of the skill system itself. I guess you just can't please 'em all...




Yurian

[Jolly Joker]

God forbid, you'd admit to a plain FACTUAL error, wouldn't you? Because the question is not a point of view here, as I've repeatedly shown, but a plain simple fact of mathematics and probabilities.
Shrugging it all off with some meaningless phrases like "you just can't please 'em all" isn't going change the facts, you know...

[Muszka]

Plus the H3 luck doesn't doubles the damage, instead it does a little over the max damage without bless, and does about +25-50% damage with bless.

Huh?

I'm not so sure about this...

As far as I have seen, Luck always double the damage when it triggers.
Are you trying to calculate global damage increase taking the probability into account?

I'm 100% sure about this. For example last night when I played a map (although WoG map, that doesn't count), my supreme Archangels had double strike twice due to Barbarian Lord's Axe of Ferocity.
On first strike they done 9,5K damage with luck and 7,5K damage without luck.
I also noticed that in RoE, AB, SoD. You might wanna test that, but I'm sure as hell, and I observed this with many copies of the game.

@JJ
sometimes it's enough only one Expert Blind, to allow a retaliationless strike. Also you can find "curse" on external shrines, or other towns.

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

@ Yurian
I may not know you well enough to get away with this, but I think you should do yourself a favor and don't waste energy on defending a right that is not being violated. No one says you shouldn't like a hero who comes with one skill on Advanced better than any other.
The whole point is that if a hero comes with two skills that are both part of the eight you'd like to end up with, you have a bigger chance of succeeding in getting them all. This is a fact you may try to argue against, but it's easy to back it up with mathematics.
That is not to say that Offense speciality isn't able to counterbalance (and later on outweigh) this disadvantage.

@JJ
Yeah yeah of course it illustrates your point. I just thought people would appreciate the novelty of 3 magic schools AND Wisdom on a Barbarian. With two slots left. It'll probably never happen again in my life.
(Fortune has smirked on me a little, for I got at another point of choosing between two new skills, Leadership and Learning. That cost me Tactics because I figured I'd better get Ballistics for the last slot.)
Acquiring Curse has neither been a problem nor a priority. The hardest part will be getting my hands on Berserk.
I know the AI is pretty lame but at least they level up well along with me, at this point in the campaign they often do have some nasty magic up their sleeve and several Castles to recruit from. I've just emerged from a fight with Thant who had Expert Air and at least Advanced Earth. I was really lucky I knew Resurrection.
I got the Battleground maps about a month ago and I like them a lot, they're really challenging especially with the sieges. Still plenty of ways to use the AI's crumminess to your advantage. Maybe I need to finally get into playing it online. Battleground should be a great off-ramp.

@ Muszka
That could also be explained through that theory I posted before. I don't have WoG but looking at their stats it's pretty safe to say that you had a huge A/D differential. The bulk of the damage would come from your Attack value and not get doubled at all.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Much has been said negatively about H3's AI...

But, it's still the most competent AI in the series.

I rank it ahead of Heroes 2. I played tons of H2 yesterday to test out a new map I've made (Concript Lake). The AI simply doesn't consolidate his armies on 1 big hero like it can in H3. And in battle, H3 at least tries to inflict the most damage it can in its turn, while in H2 the AI is simply obsessed with killing off your shooter stacks.

I have not played WoG much, but I venture to say that the AI must be relatively worse than normal H3 because all those new features must confuse the poor CPU to hell. (Unless they managed to tinker with the H3 AI, in which case they are indeed Gods )

[Jolly Joker]

@BigThing
Yeah, for a campaign it's probably worth the novelty effect to have a Barbarian with 3 magic skills, and if I had to pick between FA and FM I'd pick FM as well - which wouldn't stop me from going for the all important Earth Magic and in the Barbarian case Air Magic as well.

[Gaidal Cain]

An expert Blind can help you to leave the battlefield without casuelties,

It would be a really contrieved situation if Mass Slow/Haste can't help you but Expert Blind can.

or an expert curse makes though battles easier.

Mass Haste and Slow are better. I do happen to think that Fire Magic is underestimated, but to me, using four slots on magic skills is wasteful when all you have is 40 mana.

Let me put it this way: you have a Barbarian, and can give him whatever skills you'd want, except those normally banned. Would you choose Fire Magic as one of your eight skills?

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

Would you choose Fire Magic as one of your eight skills?

Of course not, but Muszka and myself are just making the best of the situation.
If we're going to linger on it though (which, don't get me wrong, I would rather enjoy, but I don't really know how much this board values topicality and everything), I think my eight skills for a Barb are

Air
Earth
Offense
Tactics
Logistics
Wisdom
Resistance
Ballistics/Armorer

Ballistics for large maps/campaigns, Armorer for small (it has that nasty bug that causes enemy castle turret shooters to do more damage than usual).

There aren't many runners up really. Possibly Leadership. Possibly Diplomacy. Possibly Intelligence or Mysticism. Possibly maybe Pathfinding.
All these appeal to me equally to a third elemental school mastered. Of course there probably won't be a battle where I make use of them all, but it increases my flexibility and if nothing else, that makes the game more enjoyable to me.

Even if a Barbarian could get Water Magic I don't think I'd prefer it over Fire unless I'm guaranteed a Prayer spell and the necessary Wisdom soon.

EDIT On second thought, on a smaller map I probably wouldn't want to bother with Wisdom, and then I would prefer Intelligence/Mysticism or Diplomacy (in hopes of getting good punchbag joins) to Fire Magic.

[Jolly Joker]

Umm, agreed 100%. Except... on a smaller map everything is theory because it's unlikely you max out, but if indeed you'd have all eight skills I'd take Ballistics AND Armorer instead of Wisdom (or Armorer AND Ballistics).

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

That occurred to me as well, but there's a grey area in M maps (or L with little or no underground) and I didn't want to complicate any further. For now.

Frankly, almost everything here is theory because I always take a Battle Mage as main hero with Stronghold. So much easier to use. I don't think I've ever led a Barb through a small map, I might try that famous Tyraxor rush sometime but meh.

[Muszka]

I have not played WoG much, but I venture to say that the AI must be relatively worse than normal H3 because all those new features must confuse the poor CPU to hell. (Unless they managed to tinker with the H3 AI, in which case they are indeed Gods )

Don't make hasty conclusions if you enable double build/day what means triple (with two free builds) on impossible, you'll see how AI can catch up, and how much luck you need to win an S map with such setting, if you enable stack experience for AI too, it's a pain to defeat any AI.

That could also be explained through that theory I posted before. I don't have WoG but looking at their stats it's pretty safe to say that you had a huge A/D differential. The bulk of the damage would come from your Attack value and not get doubled at all.

It's not a WoG issue, it's a general. It is present in RoE and all other games as well, even in heroes complete. Just run a couple of test and you'll see very soon, that it doesn't do get doubled regardless of attack. It does somewhere 15-40% extra, and that's all. And I was wrong before, that bless counts, because it doesn't.

It would be a really contrieved situation if Mass Slow/Haste can't help you but Expert Blind can.

As you know, Expert Blind provides a significant bonus to Blind, the first strike is retaliationless. That can save me Behemoths from a mighty gorgon retaliation, or from any other big stack, what I can't kill with a blow.

Let me put it this way: you have a Barbarian, and can give him whatever skills you'd want, except those normally banned. Would you choose Fire Magic as one of your eight skills?

OK.

On S maps: I certainly wouldn't, because I can't use it so much to waste 3 precious point on it. But if the choise is between Fire magic and some useless skill, I can go with it. A blind is always helpful.

On M, L, XL maps: Let's see.
I go with Logistics/Wisdom/Earth/Air/Diplomacy/Offense/X/XX
X and XX are map dependent. One is pathfinding, the other is restrained for if I get Water magic from a Witch Hut, If I don't need pathfinding I take fire magic, or if I don't get WM from a WH I take fire magic again.
The only thing that can make me not to pick fire magic it is Pathfinding, or the fact that I didn't got the chance to pick it. It saved my back so many times that I can't tell of many of the non-magic skills. In my experience Fire Magic is the school of nasty Blind Berserk, Sacrifice, Armageddon.

And yes I would pick it even if I have just 4 Knowledge. Once I won a battle (Hot Seat), thanks to Berserk (Expert) where my playing pal had 50% more units and 10 of each primary attribute more. He just beat himself. Although it's not in the same priority category with the other magic skills, it's still a skill I value over non-magic skills.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Too bad Blind/Berserk don't work on undead though.

[Gaidal Cain]

It would be a really contrieved situation if Mass Slow/Haste can't help you but Expert Blind can.

As you know, Expert Blind provides a significant bonus to Blind, the first strike is retaliationless. That can save me Behemoths from a mighty gorgon retaliation, or from any other big stack, what I can't kill with a blow.

Mass Haste or Slow would allow you to take the hit with something that can stand it, or to weaken the stack with your shooters. And with Earth Magic, Resurrection would allow you to recover the losses anyway.

On M, L, XL maps: Let's see.
I go with Logistics/Wisdom/Earth/Air/Diplomacy/Offense/X/XX
X and XX are map dependent. One is pathfinding, the other is restrained for if I get Water magic from a Witch Hut, If I don't need pathfinding I take fire magic, or if I don't get WM from a WH I take fire magic again.

OK. I'd personally prefer Tactics over Fire Magic, though.

[Muszka]

Mass Haste or Slow would allow you to take the hit with something that can stand it, or to weaken the stack with your shooters. And with Earth Magic, Resurrection would allow you to recover the losses anyway.

If possible I don't want to lose any unit. I find every detail important

[Avonu]

Yog - for speciality (I know - hard to buld cyclops cave) and I like him from H1 (only barbarian with blue skin - well, only (half)human with blue skin ).

[Bimbasto]

Shiva (vote), nice lady and Yog. Others too "barbarian" I think...

[Storm-giant]

Voted Craj Hack, He gives what anyone expect from a barbarian: Power.