H3: Fav Lvl2 critter.

[Metathron]

In fact core units are always 3rd and 4th levels. Marksmen are good, but they have very tight line between from to be a core unit to cannon fodder.

Look, Pol, your knowledge of the game is obviously limited. I have read a lot of your posts so I do know what I am talking about. If you don't want to learn the game, that's fine, but try not to share your knowledge too loudly... you might as well mislead some inexperienced people.

I am somewhat bothered by this elitist attitude, not just from you, from anyone who expresses such a view and tries to stifle others from expressing theirs. Why not explain yourself, rather than speaking down from a lofty pedestal?

What exactly counts as 'sharing your knowledge too loudly'? You may consider yourself as the paragon of the Heroes universe, and expect others to take your opinion as the be-all end-all word, but those who don't are still free to express their opinions in a civilized manner.

That said, I don't think ad hominem attacks contribute anything to the discussion either. The moderators ought to edit them out to retain the integrity of these boards.

[csarmi]

Look, what do yoy do, when someone claims some rediculous statement such as "the sun sets on the east"?

For the first time, you correct it and explain why. For the second time, you probably do the same. Maybe even the 3rd time. After a while, you just correct him for you grow tired, but still, the misinformation can't stay unanswered, no?

nd with just a little bit of reading and searching, the guy can find the correct information and even the why's... cause it's been answered several times alread...

But when the same guy does it for the 10th time and he keeps doing things like that, you probably just sit there idle and do nothing? Or type the same kind of correction again, knowing that he won't even read it and even if he does, he'll simply deny it and come up with some similar nonsense? Or just tell him to refrain from doing so?

Nucleon is well over the line. Pol is getting closed to it.

I really admire someone, who can keep posting, correcting, answering, doing it over and over again. But I am not that guy. Sorry.

[wimfrits]

-Need 20k gold, 5 woods, and 12 of every other ressources (but in ore, where you gain 5) more, creatures cost themselves being out of the equation. We need a most generous map.
-Forget about buying a lot of these at the start of week 3.

- you perhaps. Not me.
- you perhaps. Not me.

The dwellings do not cost less for you, friend. What Nucleon wrote there -and denied by you- is by no way subjective; It is cold calculations.

I responded to “we need a most generous map” and “forget about buying...”
That is not the case for me. Don’t presume to know how I play.

Yes, it’s kind of difficult to get a Portal of Glory if you are sacrificing resources and precious town building times for a non-cost-efficient unit like griffins.

That does not make much sense.

It was already obvious this does not make sense to you. After all, you’re the one who still thinks using griffins is a good strategy.
I’ll give up my attempts to enlighten you.

(sight) Griffins are cheap 1) to produce and 2) to buy.

*sigh*
1. barracks griffin tower upgraded griffin tower griffin bastion. You have a 4 buildings delay in the rest of town building compared to me. These buildings cost money and the fact that you don’t upgrade your town hall as quick as I do costs you money as well.
2. you buy the griffins produced

1+2 = my income is soaring compared to yours.

150? Griffins conservatories house 20-100 Griffins, max. 1 Angel per 20 griffins.

If I remember correctly it’s 5 groups of 10, 20 or 30 griffins (of which 1 group is royal). So 50, 100 or 150 in total; resulting in 1, 2, or 3 angels. I could be wrong though. Perhaps the amount of griffins is lower on lower difficulty settings, I don’t know.

Yet, you say that building Portal of Glory and buying Angels is somewhat cheaper. A single one of them cost (in gold) what all three Griffin dwelling cost. For 1 Angel, you can have 12.5 Royal Griffins, and still you will have to spit a gem more. How can you build a 20k Portal and still afford to buy some whitout having a Capital? Nucleon suspects an easy, generous map.

Lol. You seem to forget that my town develops a lot faster than yours and therefore my income will be higher than yours. As for map preference, I prefer the tough, barren maps. Maps where every enemy would decimate any stack of griffins any time

Simple logics:
- the stronger your stack, the better your chances to win.
- the higher the difficulty, the more difficult it is to preserve a big stack.
Conclusion: your ability to play at high difficulty depends on having a 'strong' stack and your ability to preserve it.
- part of griffin’s strength is their retaliation.
- retaliation means casualties
Conclusion: part of griffin’s strength is also their weakness. This becomes more apparent as difficulty increases. Like I said earlier, losing 1 griffin in week 2 means losing 5% of your army potential.

This is simplistic logic indeed. Multiple retaliation is an advantage, not a hindrance! It would be, if there was a retaliation on the retaliation itself... If you compare R-Griffins with say, S-Pegasi, the later makes an attack, get a retaliation, and gets attacked again. The R-Griffins retaliate for each attack they would receive, taking no more damage than S-Pegs just because they retaliate. Doesn't everybody knows that?

Read each line of my comments again. Perhaps then you will understand.
Sure, multiple retaliation is an advantage when you can afford casualties.
You can’t afford casualties on high settings. If you make full use of the griffin’s ‘strength’, your stack will be incapable to do anything after 1 or 2 fights. Part of the griffin’s ‘strength’ in fact depends on their casualties, no matter how you put it.
I’m getting tired of having to explain the same concept over and over again, so I will stop that now.

Enough. Nucleon challenges you to built a Portal of Glory in the second week at impossible settings. We don't even talk about buying some yet; Just build the thing. Then save your game and prepare to show it to Nucleon.

Pfft. I have better things to do with my time. And I’d much rather let you dabble around with griffins
That and I haven’t seen my H3 disc in years.

I really admire someone, who can keep posting, correcting, answering, doing it over and over again.

Banedon can. That's one of the things I admire in him.
I'm giving up though.

[Bandobras Took]

Marksmen is Castle's core unit. And no good player builds griffin dweliing at all unless he has absolutely nothing else to do. It's a waste of time, money, and resources. There may be special cases, but even then, I would prefer to go for cavaliers.

As for voting, I don't think I have voted.

Wow, this brings the total of things you've said that I agree with up to about ten or so!

But I do agree. The early-game clearing that Marksmen provide is what allows the Castle to compete. Wandering around with a bunch of hand-to-hand troops will not be as effective. This only becomes truer on harder difficulty levels where resources are in short supply.

[Gaidal Cain]

Mod Note: Unless the tone some of the posters in this thread use gets more civil, it will be closed. Calling other people names aren't nice. Assuming things on what people are in real life isn't an argument. Now play nice, or else...

[Nucleon]

*sigh*
1. barracks griffin tower upgraded griffin tower griffin bastion. You have a 4 buildings delay in the rest of town building compared to me. These buildings cost money and the fact that you don’t upgrade your town hall as quick as I do costs you money as well.

That is erronous; The Barracks are a prerequisite of both the Monastery (which in turn is needed for the Portal of Glory) and the Griffin Tower. Check it out.

2. you buy the griffins produced

Well, yeah. This way, Nucleon's got a speed 9 unit that is both polyvalent and efficient.

1+2 = my income is soaring compared to yours.

After you bought (or attempt to) Portal of Glory? It will take many, many weeks of Royal Griffin production to equate the cost of the Monastery, then the Portal itself, then the Angels. Plus, Chances are Nucleon will have the Capital towards the end of week two, even on high difficulty maps.

If I remember correctly it’s 5 groups of 10, 20 or 30 griffins (of which 1 group is royal). So 50, 100 or 150 in total; resulting in 1, 2, or 3 angels. I could be wrong though. Perhaps the amount of griffins is lower on lower difficulty settings, I don’t know.

Don't bother remembering; Check it out. Take the editor, select the Griffin Conservatory, right click on it and chose "What is this?". Here is what its going to tell you; The Conservatory's population is random, no matter the map, and the maximum of Griffins it can house is 100. For each 20 Griffins therein (minimum 40), you shall win one Angel in the end. 30% chances of fighting 40, 60 and 80 Griffins; 10% chance to fight 100.

Lol. You seem to forget that my town develops a lot faster than yours and therefore my income will be higher than yours.

Okay, but your equation lacks a variable, probably replaced by "then a miracle occurs".

Let us pretend, shall we? Let us pretend that we both have Castle. Nucleon thinks that our first week may not be so different. It is a given that we build in that time (in loose order):

-The Village Hall
-Mage Guild one
-The Market Place
-The Blacksmith
-The Town Hall
-The Barracks.
-The Archer tower, if not already present. Some player will be cheesy enough to restart the game until they get it, but that looks bad in Multiplayer, right?

If it is there indeed, that's when Nucleon will builds the Griffin Tower. Others can build the Citadel at this point, to benefit from more Archers. Others will upgrade them now. All are valid options, dependingonthemap. Second week, Nucleon, with costs:

-Marksmen upgrade, 1000g, 5 wood, 5 ore, plus the production
-Griffin Upgrade, 1000g, 5 ore. Production, 7 units = 1680g
-Citadel, 2500g, 5 ore
-Castle, 5000g, 10 woods, 10 Ore
-Capital, 10000g
-Griffin Bastion, 1000g

Total cost of Nucleon's week two, minus Marksmen, is 22180g, 15 woods, 25 ore. At the start of week 3, He's got a 4000g daily revenues, and 20 Royal Griffins to hire. From there on, it goes smooth.

Now, week two, Wimfrits (Nucleon assume you upgraded the Marksmen in week 1, costing you 5 more wood in the end):

-Monastery; 3000g, 5 wood, 5 ore, two of each other ressources.
-Portal of Glory, 20000, ten of each other ressources. Production 1 Angel, 3000g plus 1 gem.

Stop the presses; already, your costs surpasses those of Nucleon with 26000g, 10 wood, 5 ore 13 gems and 12 of each other ressources.

And what do you have for that? One Angel, and less of all the other troops. The 3 "Cs", Citadel, Castle and Capital, have very few chances to see the light on week two my friend. Force is to admit that Nucleon's building scheme is much more suited to Expert and Impossible maps. On the first day of week 3, Nucleon will have enough money to buy more forces than you ever will, and He may well have more Angels on the map -as opposite to in the walls, whereas you will have 2 more, as well as in the future, since His Castle is already built.

Read each line of my comments again. Perhaps then you will understand.
Sure, multiple retaliation is an advantage when you can afford casualties.

No, the condition is wrong. Nucleon would like all of His troops to have Unlimited retaliation. There is even a spell that attempts to mimic it: "Counterstrike", a 24 pts level 4 spell, nothing less, and not nearly as good as the Royal Griffin's hability.

You can’t afford casualties on high settings. If you make full use of the griffin’s ‘strength’, your stack will be incapable to do anything after 1 or 2 fights. Part of the griffin’s ‘strength’ in fact depends on their casualties, no matter how you put it.
I’m getting tired of having to explain the same concept over and over again, so I will stop that now.

Wait! So if Nucleon understands correctly, it would be a mistake to attempt melee combat. It that it? No melee unit can claim superiority over any shooter, right? Damn! Nucleon is getting good! Thanks to you, Wimfrits!

Pfft. I have better things to do with my time. And I’d much rather let you dabble around with griffins

...Of course...

That and I haven’t seen my H3 disc in years

Nucleon must say: It shows a bit.

[csarmi]

No, that's perfecty fine in multiplayer. Actually, it makes the game more balanced (both players will start with lvl2 prebuilt, of course).

Well if you go into just about any game week 3 with only those dwellings built, you have already lost. Unless you are fighting the AI, of course.

And that's a fact.

[Nucleon]

And that's a fact.

Yeah. A csarmi fact.

You "speak" like if you've got authority, or even credibility to Nucleon's eyes. Delude yourself: you have less and less of that as He reads more of you. That too, is a fact.

Things like that:

Nucleon, there is nu such thing as a ranged attack fan. Ranged attack simply rules. Makes you win against high odds. This game is all about ranged attack combined with mass slow.

So Nucleon guess you're no fan of Inferno, are you? Because such a ridiculous statement, if it had a remote chance to be true, would be tantamount to say that Inferno cannot win.

And you expect to be taken seriously?

[Banedon]

Stop idolizing the guy. Last thing you want is to be like him (or is it her?)

csarmi may have some personality problems and an elitist attitude, but he / she is an awesome player. You have to respect that. Alexander Alekhine was a drunk and Nazi sympathizer, but he was also the World Champion at Chess. Even now, players respect him for the high level of play he achieved.

Barracks are a pre-requisite for both the Griffin Way and the Angel Way; You need it to build the Monastery, which in turn is needed for the Portal of Glory.

I think you missed the point.

Every Castle player will have to build Barracks. But not every Castle player must build the Griffin dwelling - only those who intend to use Griffins (like you). This costs Gold which can be channeled to Angels.

Still, when the going gets tough, it is better deal than what you might have at an intown market.

When the going gets tough, I far prefer to have 5,000 gold than an extra +1 Wood, +1 Ore a turn.

You are obviously a ranged attack fan. Nucleon thinks that you put much effort to get "Archery" and "Tactics" he? Classic. One thing you ignore though, is that such a hero build would be as efficient with any ranged troop. So your assessment of the Marksmen could be off because of that.

If a hero is not going to use Ranged attacks, he needs fast and powerful fliers. I've said this before, and I say it again. Stronghold and Inferno make do with Thunderbirds and Efreet Sultans. They're not Ranged, but they work well.

The towns fortunate enough to be blessed with powerful, low-level Ranged troops - Castle, Rampart, Conflux and Dungeon - are much easier to play than the others (especially Fortress).

Vampire Lords are fast. With your army capped at Monks/Zealots, your fastest units are your much-maligned Royal Griffins -if you built the dwelling, that is. Conceding you the advantage, you may cast a "haste" or a "slow", whatever you have in mass version, but the opposing plyer may reverse it with the opposite spell as soon as he can, almost giving him two fast successive attacks.

Indeed. That's why I said there's this thing as good play and bad play affecting the duel. If the Necropolis player moves first and casts Mass Slow, it's a mistake if the Castle player has Mass Haste. But this is not the end of the duel, and more permutations can occur.

Assuming that the V-Lords have already been attacked, Nucleon would immediatly send them at your Marksmen, from the start of turn two. Not just because of our discussion, but mainly because Marksmen are great to replenish the V-Lords; Weak defenses and an irritant attack. If they are surrounded by defenders, the whole package get Death Clouded before.

Well let's assume a fight between the two. Vampire Lords move first. They wait (reasonable, since moving forward would needlessly tip their hand. Zealots move next. Castle player casts MASS HASTE. Zealots and Marksmen both aim at the Power Liches, which drastically reduces their numbers. Without a significant Death Cloud, Necropolis could get overwhelmed (that's assuming they don't have 2k Skeleton Warriors )

You see? And, even if the Vampire Lords do hit the Marksmen, it's one attack. Next up would be the single-Pikeman stack attacking the Vampire Lords, then the Crusaders, the Zealots, the main Pikeman stack (if there is one) and finally the Marksmen (who may choose to Defend). The Vampire Lords too could get overwhelmed, without significant aid from the back.

Nucleon does not believe that units are getting better or worse according to the difficulty. Starting ressources are affected by difficulty, as is the AI. That's all.

At higher difficulty settings, you won't have 20 Griffins. But you may have 20 Marksmen. Now 20 Marksmen is a significant early-game force, and with them you can really hope to expand without much problems.

On Easy difficulty however, you may be able to reach Angels by the end of Week 1. Now obviously Marksmen aren't so important. The logical conclusion therefore is: Ranged attackers get stronger at higher difficulty settings.

Nucleon grants you that Lizard Warriors will be as targeted as Marksmen for discussion's sake (He would rather think that Dragonflies would rather be, but let's). However, at equal agression, the Lizard Warriors will last longer because they have better defenses and Health.

I would advance another conclusion. At equal aggression, neither the Lizard Warriors nor the Marksmen would lose significant numbers in any fight save a castle siege or a battle against an enemy hero.

If your defenders are so thin, they will be killed by the Liches before the Vampire Lords come and feast.

Not if they do not group up, and I highly doubt the Power Liches would aim at a single-Pikeman stack.

You can claim that you will use your Marksmen to great effect inside the boundaries of your army, but you cannot claim that Marksmen are superior to Lizard Warriors. Did you try to compare them in a vs fight, 50 on each side? Marksmen lose every time.

Have you ever computed the Ancient Behemoths vs. Archangels fight? The Ancient Behemoths win - but does that make them stronger? Would you prefer 50 Ancient Behemoths, or 50 Archangels?

All fo One is a typical tournament map, which displays all of what the early H3 had to offer. That being said, almost all tournement maps are over generous in lose ressources and chest, to favor a quicker game.

Suggest a different map then. A different map where multiplayer is possible.

That is erronous; The Barracks are a prerequisite of both the Monastery (which in turn is needed for the Portal of Glory) and the Griffin Tower. Check it out.

wimfrit's point is this. The player going for Griffins will need:

Archer Tower
Barracks
Griffin Tower
Upg. Griffin Tower
Griffin Bastion.
Upg. Archer Tower (this is needed sooner or later)

However, the player going for Crusaders will need:

Archer Tower
Upg. Archer Tower
Barracks
Upg. Barracks

Comparing the two, one finds that going for Griffins takes 6 turns, while taking the Crusader route takes 4. This is a crucial advantage. Because the Crusader player can go directly to Zealots and Angels without ever building the Griffin Tower, he gains the resource advantage.

After you bought (or attempt to) Portal of Glory? It will take many, many weeks of Royal Griffin production to equate the cost of the Monastery, then the Portal itself, then the Angels. Plus, Chances are Nucleon will have the Capital towards the end of week two, even on high difficulty maps.

You won't have enough Royal Griffins to recruit. If you have 24,000 gold in your bank at the start of a new week, does it mean you can recruit 100 Royal Griffins? No, because there won't be enough! The Castle player tends to have enough Gold to completely recruit his Marksmen and Crusaders, and this is all that is necessary. The remaining resources go to the Portal of Glory.

Week 1 build for Castle -

1. Town Hall
2. Upg. Archer Tower
3. Blacksmith
4. Barracks
5. Monastery
6. Citadel
7. Castle

The extra revenue you gain here is a boon for you, but not too big a boon. It can be compensated for by loose resources, and since a Castle player using this build would have Marksmen early, he would be able to take out neutrals with greater ease than one using your build. This equates to more resources, albeit those being non-renewable resources.

Week 2.

1. Mage Guild level 1.
2. Marketplace
3. City Hall
4. Stables (or save the gold, or Capitol)
5. Wait (or any necessary building)
6. Wait (or any necessary building)
7. Portal of Glory

Again, though this build costs more gold, that extra gold can be found. It does not need to be earned. The player using this build expands much faster, and this is the compensating factor.

And what do you have for that? One Angel, and less of all the other troops. The 3 "Cs", Citadel, Castle and Capital, have very few chances to see the light on week two my friend. Force is to admit that Nucleon's building scheme is much more suited to Expert and Impossible maps. On the first day of week 3, Nucleon will have enough money to buy more forces than you ever will, and He may well have more Angels on the map -as opposite to in the walls, whereas you will have 2 more, as well as in the future, since His Castle is already built.

A difference in one Angel is insignificant in the war against neutrals, but such a difference is crucial in the end fight. Having 1 extra Angel on the battlefield in Week 3 will not give you any advantage, while having 2 extra Archangels in Month 2 Week 1 will give wimfrits a huge advantage. See?

Having extra creatures is irrelevant if an army lacking those same creatures can destroy neutrals just as quickly.

No, the condition is wrong. Nucleon would like all of His troops to have Unlimited retaliation. There is even a spell that attempts to mimic it: "Counterstrike", a 24 pts level 4 spell, nothing less, and not nearly as good as the Royal Griffin's hability.

True, Unlimited retaliation is a strong ability that is of great use in the final battle. But it is not an ability that you would exploit against neutrals (unlike Marksmen's double shot, for example). You take too much damage.

Wait! So if Nucleon understands correctly, it would be a mistake to attempt melee combat. It that it? No melee unit can claim superiority over any shooter, right? Damn! Nucleon is getting good! Thanks to you, Wimfrits!

If you are going to attempt melee combat with the same efficiency as ranged combat, you need to outlevel your prey, as in using level 5 Thunderbirds against level 2 Marksmen. Where a good stack of Power Liches can aspire to an easy win against Minotaurs, the same stack of Thunderbirds will take casualties.

Nucleon must say: It shows a bit.

To this I'll quote a Chess book I've read.

"Tactical prowess fades with time [away from the board], but strategical understanding stays with a player forever." wimfrits may have gone 6 years without playing a serious game of Heroes 3, but he / she remains a brilliant player.

So Nucleon guess you're no fan of Inferno, are you? Because such a ridiculous statement, if it had a remote chance to be true, would be tantamount to say that Inferno cannot win.

Actually, csarmi was arguing for Inferno against Conflux in the previous forum You can ask him about it.

[Nucleon]

When the going gets tough, I far prefer to have 5,000 gold than an extra +1 Wood, +1 Ore a turn.

Yet, this particular silo can provide survival in the most severe maps. Not a first weeks construction, Nucleon agrees.

If a hero is not going to use Ranged attacks, he needs fast and powerful fliers. I've said this before, and I say it again. Stronghold and Inferno make do with Thunderbirds and Efreet Sultans. They're not Ranged, but they work well.

That's what Royal Griffins are, at a smaller scale. Yet you underestimate them.

The towns fortunate enough to be blessed with powerful, low-level Ranged troops - Castle, Rampart, Conflux and Dungeon - are much easier to play than the others (especially Fortress).

Nucleon would argue that Forteress is not so disavantaged even in the shooter's angle at game starts, but he would disgress. He agrees that the faction you named are the easiest one for a beginner, as shooter strategy is a very basic one.

At higher difficulty settings, you won't have 20 Griffins. But you may have 20 Marksmen. Now 20 Marksmen is a significant early-game force, and with them you can really hope to expand without much problems.

Much true.

On Easy difficulty however, you may be able to reach Angels by the end of Week 1. Now obviously Marksmen aren't so important. The logical conclusion therefore is: Ranged attackers get stronger at higher difficulty settings.

Nucleon would rather advance that fine troops get stronger at higher difficulty settings, by the same token.

I would advance another conclusion. At equal aggression, neither the Lizard Warriors nor the Marksmen would lose significant numbers in any fight save a castle siege or a battle against an enemy hero.

It depends how you define "significant" in this case. Nucleon is also tempted to think that Lizard Warriors would significantly survive more than Marksmen for the final battles, even thought He recognize that the later are of more use in game starts.

Have you ever computed the Ancient Behemoths vs. Archangels fight? The Ancient Behemoths win - but does that make them stronger? Would you prefer 50 Ancient Behemoths, or 50 Archangels?

Mmmh, not a comparable test. A-Behemoths, like Mighty Gorgons, are made to be 7th lvl killers, while the Archangels are much more polyvalent. In comparison, Marksmen and Lizard Warriors have about the same purpose, thus being much more comparable, IHO.

You won't have enough Royal Griffins to recruit. If you have 24,000 gold in your bank at the start of a new week, does it mean you can recruit 100 Royal Griffins? No, because there won't be enough! The Castle player tends to have enough Gold to completely recruit his Marksmen and Crusaders, and this is all that is necessary. The remaining resources go to the Portal of Glory.

Week 1 build for Castle -

1. Town Hall
2. Upg. Archer Tower
3. Blacksmith
4. Barracks
5. Monastery
6. Citadel
7. Castle

The extra revenue you gain here is a boon for you, but not too big a boon. It can be compensated for by loose resources, and since a Castle player using this build would have Marksmen early, he would be able to take out neutrals with greater ease than one using your build. This equates to more resources, albeit those being non-renewable resources.

Week 2.

1. Mage Guild level 1.
2. Marketplace
3. City Hall
4. Stables (or save the gold, or Capitol)
5. Wait (or any necessary building)
6. Wait (or any necessary building)
7. Portal of Glory

Again, though this build costs more gold, that extra gold can be found. It does not need to be earned. The player using this build expands much faster, and this is the compensating factor.

This is a great build-up, really, ideal for "Barbarian Breakout", but Nucleon have a few problems with it, on Expert difficulties. Let us look at it, if you will.

The cost of all your first week buildings amounts at 20k gold, 30 wood, 25 ore and 2 of each other ressources. Add to that a second Hero (2500), upgrades for eight Archers (400), 9 fresh Marksmen (1350) and the 14 Pikemen left (840). Didn't bought any Swordsmen yet. The bottom line of the bill, apart from the raw ressources, is 25 690 gold.

Let's see what you've got; Selecting the money option, you start with about 10.5k gold, plus 1000 gold each day from day two on. That's 16.5k gold on day seven. You also have 10 wood, ore, and 4 of each other ressources.

Your deficit: 20 wood, 15 ore, and 9190 gold. That gives you an idea of the kind of map you will need. Also, you won't have much on day 8; 1000 gold, plus your "gains".

Nucleon's buildup costs 6000 less, just in buildings. Its ressources costs will be of 15 wood, 15 ore. He also will earn 2000 a day from day 6 on. On day eight, that's 9000 golds more than you, at equal map giveaway. What will be the use of all this money? Well, buy all troops, take experience from chests from now on, maybe even recruit from external dwellings!

Having extra creatures is irrelevant if an army lacking those same creatures can destroy neutrals just as quickly.

Did you ever had an army with too much forces? It never happened to Nucleon.

True, Unlimited retaliation is a strong ability that is of great use in the final battle. But it is not an ability that you would exploit against neutrals (unlike Marksmen's double shot, for example). You take too much damage.

Well, its better to have it, in any case.

To this I'll quote a Chess book I've read.

"Tactical prowess fades with time [away from the board], but strategical understanding stays with a player forever." wimfrits may have gone 6 years without playing a serious game of Heroes 3, but he / she remains a brilliant player.

Oh, by no way Nucleon wanted to attempt to diminuish Wimfrits's playing skills, but just to remark that some of his rememberances were a bit rusty. Just a bit.

[Banedon]

Yet, this particular silo can provide survival in the most severe maps. Not a first weeks construction, Nucleon agrees.

In the most severe maps, it is much, much more important to use the 5,000 gold cost in dwellings and creatures. For 5,000 gold I can buy more than 20 Royal Griffins. Surely that would be more important than the +1 Wood and Ore a day.

That's what Royal Griffins are, at a smaller scale. Yet you underestimate them.

Maybe I underestimate them, but you yourself has agreed. They are "at a smaller scale". Now at a smaller scale, unless one has a very large army of Royal Griffins, you cannot attack a stack of (say) Wraiths and come out with zero losses. But with 9 Thunderbirds (two week's worth of Stronghold's production), you can.

Therefore the Royal Griffins suffer from attrition, and they are therefore less effective.

Nucleon would argue that Forteress is not so disavantaged even in the shooter's angle at game starts, but he would disgress. He agrees that the faction you named are the easiest one for a beginner, as shooter strategy is a very basic one.

Regarding Fortress's ranged strategies, it would be best to ask Bandobras Took, since he is the Fortress master.

The shooter strategy may be basic, but it is also deadly efficient. It is far less easy to make a mistake with ranged creatures than with melee forces, and it is also far easier to compensate for morale and luck with ranged creatures (sometimes it doesn't even affect the battle at all).

Nucleon would rather advance that fine troops get stronger at higher difficulty settings, by the same token.

No, it's ranged troops. Crusaders are strong. No doubt about that. But at higher difficulty settings you won't be able to recruit lots of them. However, for a melee stack to work well, it must be able to destroy its target in a hit (or at least reduce its numbers so significantly that any retaliation is negligible). Ranged creatures can take their time (relatively), and so are more effective at low numbers.

Regardless of what race you play, at higher difficulty settings, it is the ranged creatures that take over. I can't envisage Fortress playing at Impossible difficulty relying on Basiliks (unless one starts with Bron).

It depends how you define "significant" in this case. Nucleon is also tempted to think that Lizard Warriors would significantly survive more than Marksmen for the final battles, even thought He recognize that the later are of more use in game starts.

I contend that the difference is insignificant. This is the heart of the problem at the moment.

Mmmh, not a comparable test. A-Behemoths, like Mighty Gorgons, are made to be 7th lvl killers, while the Archangels are much more polyvalent. In comparison, Marksmen and Lizard Warriors have about the same purpose, thus being much more comparable, IHO.

It is a comparable test. Both are level 7 creatures. Both exist to slaughter their opponents. Archangels, like Ancient Behemoths, function as Castle's main damage dealer. They serve the same role. If, in a Castle army, the Archangels do not undertake the task of destroying the opposing level 7, who else is going to do it?

Marksmen and Lizard Warriors have about the same purpose. The same applies to Ancient Behemoths and Archangels. On the other hand, it would be erroneous to pit Mighty Gorgons in a straight fight against Minotaur Kings (but in the mroe general sense, it is erroneous to judge units simply by their performances against each other).

Your deficit: 20 wood, 15 ore, and 9190 gold. That gives you an idea of the kind of map you will need. Also, you won't have much on day 8; 1000 gold, plus your "gains".

It doesn't, and such requirements are easily obtained. On typical maps you'll find a Sawmill with abour 2 loose stacks of wood around, within easy reach of the castle. That takes care of the wood requirement. Ore is the same case, with Orepits generally abundant. 9190 Gold is not a difficult thing to achieve; just take a few treasure chests and pick Gold. There may be Campfires or loose gold, or maybe Leprechaun Gardens and so on.

You bought too little heroes though. In more general circumstances I would buy a few more (1-2). That's an extra 2500 or 5000 gold, but it would allow me to expand in multiple directions. These heroes cannot claim mines, but they can pick up resources and generally more than compensate for it.

What will be the use of all this money? Well, buy all troops, take experience from chests from now on, maybe even recruit from external dwellings!

Experience grants you an advantage if we battle early (though Gold tends to grant an even larger advantage). Later we are essentially even. Gold is far more important than Experience, and unless you are completely sure you no longer need Gold, take it! That is a primary rule in Heroes 3. As for recruiting from external dwellings, why would you want to? Unless it's a level 5+ dwelling, those few creatures you get, unupgraded even and probably not aligned with your town, don't really help.

Did you ever had an army with too much forces? It never happened to Nucleon.

No. But you misunderstood me. Read the post again.

There is no difference between having 10,000 Marksmen and 1,000 Marksmen early in the game. Both allow you to expand equally fast. What really matters is how many Marksmen you can bring to the final battle.

Well, its better to have it, in any case.

Here I quote another saying I read in the same Chess book:

"An advantage not suited to the position is not an advantage at all."

In the same manner, if this ability is not exploitable, it is not of much use. If I use Royal Griffins, it's because of their strength and sturdiness, not because of their unlimited retaliations.

[csarmi]

First to Nucleon:

If I claim something to be true, you can bet on it. I am seldom wrong. So yes, that's a csarmi-fact. Set in stone.

To Banedon:

Actually, you are much more likely to lose Lizard Warriors in your fights, because they are slower and they lack some firepower (so the enemy might close up on you). They are also less useful at clearing the map for this very reason (less damage converts to some fights turning impossible).

Arch Angels kill Ancien Behemoths in an equal fight (assuming they are not supported by heroes, if you give both heroes 10 attack and 10 defense, for example, things change drastically). If you put up 1 archangel vs 1 AB (and 0/0 bonus), that's an interesting fight with an amazing strategy required and some years ago I calculated the winning chances. AA came out better I believe. But I am not sure.

I don't think it's a good idea to go for Crusaders, but Wimfrits is right of course.

You should be starting the second week with the stable bonus given to most of your heroes (if no outside stable, build it day 8, if outside stable is available, go for cavaliers asap! - i would go for them over crusaders anyways, 2 champions week one, 6 champions week 2 are enough to do most of the fights - here you go with your powerstack)

And btw, having one angel in the beginning is a game-deciding factor because it enables you to do some key fights you couldn't imagine without it. So the difference of one angel is actually MORE significant against the map (than in the endfight).

I might have argued in favor of inferno, but I surely mentioned that conflux is unstoppable (and so is Necropolis).

And sorry, but on AB vs AA part, I have to agree with Nucleon completely. You shouldn't compare them, because they play a completely different role in endfights. What he fails to see is, however, that Marksmen and LW's should be compared by their damage dealing ability for this reason.

[Pol]

If I claim something to be true, you can bet on it. I am seldom wrong. So yes, that's a csarmi-fact. Set in stone.

Much better.

Anyway Marksmen aren't core unit and have no chance to be until units with lvl 5 and higer are comming to play. My logic: lvls are 1-6 (seventh is an extra should not been in towns and it actually substituting all other neutral "higher" units)

So csarmi let see:
1 -- 2 -- 3 -- 4 -- 5 -- 6

You only problem, regarding the speech, is that you are only T or MP player, passing all other views. I'm going to ask you, why are you playing this game? From strategical/mathematical reasons? That's should be fine, but this is not the main value of this game. (Too many exploits)

Note: Yes, here are exceptions for Dendroids and Elementals.
Another note: It's very simple example but the game is based on it, I noticed several times before that your ability to understand these things is rather low, you surely don't need to be bothered about, ...until you will try to making your own games.

csarmi may have some personality problems and an elitist attitude, but he / she is an awesome player. You have to respect that. Alexander Alekhine was a drunk and Nazi sympathizer, but he was also the World Champion at Chess. Even now, players respect him for the high level of play he achieved.

Sweet example....

[csarmi]

Yea I must have serious problems cause I have to admit, I understand nothing of this post of yours.

[Pol]

Also ambiguous, hm...

[Metathron]

If I claim something to be true, you can bet on it. I am seldom wrong. So yes, that's a csarmi-fact. Set in stone.

I honestly doubt any of your other character traits or fields of expertise match the astronomical extent of your hubris. You are doing yourself a great disservice and swiftly losing credibility with statements like that.

[Nucleon]

In the most severe maps, it is much, much more important to use the 5,000 gold cost in dwellings and creatures. For 5,000 gold I can buy more than 20 Royal Griffins. Surely that would be more important than the +1 Wood and Ore a day.

No. no; Nucleon means severe maps. He agrees, however, that his is not your average game, but He has seen a couple of them. The wood and ore silo can ensure survavibility almost in a vaccum, something the other silos can't provide.

But we disgress.

Maybe I underestimate them [Griffins], but you yourself has agreed. They are "at a smaller scale". Now at a smaller scale, unless one has a very large army of Royal Griffins, you cannot attack a stack of (say) Wraiths and come out with zero losses. But with 9 Thunderbirds (two week's worth of Stronghold's production), you can.

Therefore the Royal Griffins suffer from attrition, and they are therefore less effective.

Comments like these makes Nucleon wonders how does people play their Griffins; Nucleon think they are excellent in game starts! It is a two-hex creature, well-suited to protection because of that and the extra retaliation if you fight grunts, and they have high speed and decent survival chances if you confront shooters (from which they won't take much damage in melee).

One man's meat is another one's poison, like it should be written in your chess book somewhere.

The shooter strategy may be basic, but it is also deadly efficient. It is far less easy to make a mistake with ranged creatures than with melee forces, and it is also far easier to compensate for morale and luck with ranged creatures (sometimes it doesn't even affect the battle at all).

Two things with shooters; First, if you have only one stack that will be affacted by bad morale, it will be your shooters, for some reason Nucleon cannot fathom. Second, the shooter strategy, while efficient and fool-proof, is also predictible.

No, it's ranged troops. Crusaders are strong. No doubt about that. But at higher difficulty settings you won't be able to recruit lots of them. However, for a melee stack to work well, it must be able to destroy its target in a hit (or at least reduce its numbers so significantly that any retaliation is negligible). Ranged creatures can take their time (relatively), and so are more effective at low numbers.

There's another thing; That feeling that the game's difficulty will affect the creature themselves; It doesn't. Once you've got the creature, you use it exactly as you would in any difficulty. There is no reason to play less efficiently in lower difficulties.

Regardless of what race you play, at higher difficulty settings, it is the ranged creatures that take over. I can't envisage Fortress playing at Impossible difficulty relying on Basiliks (unless one starts with Bron).

Ranged creature have a free ride up until foot units with speeds 7+ and town sieges are part of regular play. If what you advance was true, Gremlin Masters would last until the final battle.

I contend that the difference is insignificant. This is the heart of the problem at the moment.

Indeed.

It is a comparable test. Both are level 7 creatures. Both exist to slaughter their opponents. Archangels, like Ancient Behemoths, function as Castle's main damage dealer. They serve the same role. If, in a Castle army, the Archangels do not undertake the task of destroying the opposing level 7, who else is going to do it?

Marksmen and Lizard Warriors have about the same purpose. The same applies to Ancient Behemoths and Archangels. On the other hand, it would be erroneous to pit Mighty Gorgons in a straight fight against Minotaur Kings (but in the mroe general sense, it is erroneous to judge units simply by their performances against each other).

Nucleon disgrees; It is like comparing Evil Eyes and Griffins, both 3rd level creatures that are "existing to slaughter their opponents" (do you know a creature whose job isn't that anyway?).

It doesn't, and such requirements are easily obtained. On typical maps you'll find a Sawmill with abour 2 loose stacks of wood around, within easy reach of the castle. That takes care of the wood requirement. Ore is the same case, with Orepits generally abundant. 9190 Gold is not a difficult thing to achieve; just take a few treasure chests and pick Gold. There may be Campfires or loose gold, or maybe Leprechaun Gardens and so on.

Optimistic, almost to the point of being jovialistic. You'll need that: Your second week is more costly still. Chances are your construction scheme will be severly delayed in most Expert difficulty maps, meaning insured defeat.

You bought too little heroes though. In more general circumstances I would buy a few more (1-2). That's an extra 2500 or 5000 gold, but it would allow me to expand in multiple directions. These heroes cannot claim mines, but they can pick up resources and generally more than compensate for it.

Are you sure that this exemple is set in Expert difficulty? That is a scheme that ressemble Nucleon's first tries at the game.

Experience grants you an advantage if we battle early (though Gold tends to grant an even larger advantage). Later we are essentially even. Gold is far more important than Experience, and unless you are completely sure you no longer need Gold, take it! That is a primary rule in Heroes 3.

With your construction scheme, that's hardly an option indeed.

As for recruiting from external dwellings, why would you want to? Unless it's a level 5+ dwelling, those few creatures you get, unupgraded even and probably not aligned with your town, don't really help.

With the patches comes creature dwellings that are assorted with a chosen town on MP maps. As for RPG maps, it is an even truer thing; Most of the time, nearby dwellings are matched with your town.

If I claim something to be true, you can bet on it. I am seldom wrong. So yes, that's a csarmi-fact. Set in stone.

Heresy, mortal! Nucleon, and Nucleon alone is omniscient!

Actually, you are much more likely to lose Lizard Warriors in your fights, because they are slower and they lack some firepower (so the enemy might close up on you).

Considering your supranormal powers, certainly you already know what Nucleon will answer to that.

[Nucleon]

I'm going to ask you, why are you playing this game? From strategical/mathematical reasons? That's should be fine, but this is not the main value of this game.

Exactly. Nucleon thinks that guys who are coming with one strategy, only that one and no others, ever, are too stiff and close-minded to be good, or even experienced players. This game is about adaptability, not pre-made recipes.

No matter the faction, there is no immuable modus operandi that will ever guarantee you victory. A human player is still required to play the game, as opposed to automatons.

Sitations differ, They also can change. Luck is a factor, as well as the performence of the opposition. If it wasn't the case, Nucleon would not play this game.

[Bandobras Took]

If I claim something to be true, you can bet on it. I am seldom wrong. So yes, that's a csarmi-fact. Set in stone.

I honestly doubt any of your other character traits or fields of expertise match the astronomical extent of your hubris. You are doing yourself a great disservice and swiftly losing credibility with statements like that.

Actually, if csarmi does in fact not say something unless he is sure of it, then his statement is true.

I have yet to see any crushing logic that proves anything he's said wrong. We might complain about the way he says it, but, then, consistently referring to one's self in the third person irritates almost as much as a lack of manners.

[Bandobras Took]

I'm going to ask you, why are you playing this game? From strategical/mathematical reasons? That's should be fine, but this is not the main value of this game. (Too many exploits)

The main value of a Turn-Based Strategy game isn't strategy?

Besides which, as soon as we start talking about the worth of a creature in the game, a strategy/mathematic view is about the only way we're going to get anywhere. We can't really decide it on artwork or cool death animations.