Best level 4 unit

[Metathron]

This might just be the most difficult choice to make, so many great options.

Vote away.

[Lord Lakely]

For me it's the Griffin.

[konfeta]

True... I think it's easier for me to choose the suckiest ones.

Berserker and Grim Riders would be those. Everyone else on this list is actually pretty awesome - I love using all of them.

[Asheera]

Berserker and Grim Riders would be those. Everyone else on this list is actually pretty awesome - I love using all of them.

Are you serious? Or you meant Brisk Raiders?

I voted for Grim Raiders... their 100% defense reduction when charging is awesome

[John.Galt]

No contest - vampires own. There's a reason that vampirism is a really good level 5 spell.

15 vampires with raise dead can creep almost any creature stack. I've had stacks of 100 vampires kill entire armies with just raise dead. Throw in some summoning magic (See other thread) and dark magic (Again, see other thread) and 100 vampires can easily kill massive armies without losing any units - simply because of life drain.

[konfeta]

I meant Riders as a whole. They are nice, assuming you don't lose many of them during killing neutrals, but other tier 4 units (with exception of berzerkers) are much nicer.

Imperial Griffins are pure, unadulterated ownage. If they trigger morale during the dive (common occurrence with that faction), they will often wipe out the enemy stack before it has a chance to move.

Succubus Seducer is Puppet Master in a tier 4 unit. And Mistresses themselves aren't too shabby as far as shooters go.

Vampires are self-explanatory. They scale with numbers better than 90% of other creatures in the game.

High Druids single handily make Rangers rival magic heroes.

Archmages, well, they are probably down there on the list of awesome, but they are more useful for clearing neutrals than Raiders, who are basically cannon fodder.

Berzerkers are just mediocre. Decent damage, but they die too fast and you rarely have many of them.

Daughters are critical for stronghold success IMO. Haste/Slow independent of hero actions alone makes them worth it, and they aren't bad fighters.


I mean, Raiders hurt with the capital H, but overall I find them less useful when comparing to other tier 4 troops.

[Asheera]

Archmages, well, they are probably down there on the list of awesome, but they are more useful for clearing neutrals than Raiders, who are basically cannon fodder.

I don't even use Raiders for creeping, Stalkers and Furies and a Destructive Hero are enough if used well, trust me

[konfeta]

That still doesn't change that other tier 4 troops are just better.

[Asheera]

You probably never experienced a Grim Raider charging towards a Tier 7 creature with high defense (especially a Magma Dragon) and see how much damage they inflict.

And they get better as the enemy Hero's Defense increases, since more defense will be reduced

They also have very high stats, and the most HP for a tier 4 I think

[konfeta]

And you never seen Seducers neutralize two stacks in one swift motion? Imperial Griffins decimating enemy shooters? High Druids turning their hero into nuking machines comparable to Warlocks? Vampires literally being impossible to kill without cheesing Divine Vengeance or focusing basically all your damage on them, only to see them come back to full numbers? All of that in addition to these units being useful through-out the game?

Raider stats are above average for their tier, but not the best - their HP is their main area of excellence. Their special is also not as devastating as the one that other tier 4 troops have; nor are they as useful through out the game.


Overall, I appreciate what other tier 4 untis do for their factions more than what raiders do for Dungeon.

[Asheera]

Well, I somehow agree, most of those tier 4s you said are great as well, but not the Vampires... for me they just aren't too powerful and die too quickly.

[konfeta]

Well, Vampires are oriented for killing neutrals and massive battles. A large vampire stack with Vampirism cast on it literally needs to be taken out between it's turns. I find them to be the core of my late game necro force - my victory hinges on Necromancer's magic and their ability to last forever.

They are not without counters, of course, but they are exceedingly difficult to take care off when supported by a well built Necro. When fighting them, this is the one time I don't feel dirty casting Divine Vengeance.

[Wolfsburg]

Vampires... dont die... too fast.

For dying is a definitive concept.

Handled by an experienced Vladimir, with arcane armor and vampirism on them, supported by eventual raise dead, they just turn the rest of the battlefield into minced meat.

[John.Galt]

I just don't see how you can not pick vampires... They're probably second most imba unit in the game for their tier (Next to Arcane Archers ofc)

Just today in my game I watched 12 vampire lords kill 20 champions without taking any casualties. I didn't have to raise dead once. (Granted I abused terrain and was casting banshee howl, but oh well, they're still imba)

[Banedon]

I just don't see how you can not pick vampires... They're probably second most imba unit in the game for their tier (Next to Arcane Archers ofc)

Just today in my game I watched 12 vampire lords kill 20 champions without taking any casualties. I didn't have to raise dead once. (Granted I abused terrain and was casting banshee howl, but oh well, they're still imba)

How high level heroes are we talking about here? My Zehir killed, if I remember correctly, more than 200 Flame Lords with 6 Rakshasha Kshrati and one Archmage, but that was hardly the Rakshaha's prowess at combat, it was all Zehir's work.

I personally have rather a low opinion of Vampires. They just don't deal enough damage. Like last time I faced a Neropolis army in a fight, the Wraith stack ended up causing much more damage to my army than the Vampires. Up against neutrals where you can throw as many buffs and curses as you want sure the Vampires can do a lot ... but against another human they can even be safely ignored for a while (learning from my experience, I'd certainly prioritize the Wraith, Lich and Spectral Dragon stacks vs. Necroplis).

This level in general -

Imperial Griffins are awesome.
Succubi Seducers / Mistresses, like all the other Inferno units, are bad. It is the hero that makes them good (aka. Gating). Mistresses' unfocused damage goes against them as well. Seduce is a fine ability though.
Vampire Lords are average.
High Druids' only real job is to pump the Ranger's spell power -> Rain of Arrows. That said, they really make the Ranger a lot stronger.
Raiders are great damage dealers and so great units. No idea why anyone would use them as cannon fodder; sacrifice either Minotaurs or Stalkers instead.
Archmages are fine units, very important to Academy, but they do scale a little badly.
Berserkers are weak.
Daughters are critical for Stronghold; Stronghold simply cannot not have them.

Tough decisions here. I'd rule out Archmages, Berserkers, Vampires and Succubi at once. Raiders I'd probably rule out too, since you don't usually need them until the final battles (when they can be a large threat). That leaves the Imperial Griffins, High Druids and Daughters, all of which have their uses, and all of which are great units.

I guess I'll pick the Griffins by personal preference.

[konfeta]

just don't see how you can not pick vampires...

While they are awesome, they are a critical mass unit. Which means very large maps and long games, which many people don't play.

[John.Galt]

While they are awesome, they are a critical mass unit. Which means very large maps and long games, which many people don't play.

I never play short games :-)

I've never had a H3 or H5 game last less than 4 months. I play on large maps and I never leave my "area" with my hero until everything is fully conquered in my area and my towns are fully built.

[John.Galt]

How high level heroes are we talking about here? My Zehir killed, if I remember correctly, more than 200 Flame Lords with 6 Rakshasha Kshrati and one Archmage, but that was hardly the Rakshaha's prowess at combat, it was all Zehir's work.

All I was doing was casting banshee howl repeatedly since the ones that couldn't reach my vampires kept cleansing it off themselves, but I would have won without it I believe.

Edit: Sorry for double posting, I thought I had clicked edit instead :-/

[blizzardboy]

Wow this is a tough poll. A lot of really good tier 4 units. I went with the succubus. She's a solid ranged unit and the damage bounce is really sweet too. Top that off with ranged retaliation to discourage enemy ranged units from shooting her, or at least to make them pay for doing it.

I can understand why vampire is a popular choice since it's easy to exploit that against computer-controlled monsters. But I'm thinking in terms of player vs. player, and a player will probably either ignore the vampires till last or concentrate on them so you can't optimize your use of the life drain.

Archmage is another really effective one in early game. But they somewhat lose their power in late game since you don't have room to keep them in multiple stacks anymore. They're also an easy to kill unit whereas the succubus make pretty solid tanks (as far as ranged units are concerned),

[Wolfsburg]

I personally have rather a low opinion of Vampires. They just don't deal enough damage. Like last time I faced a Neropolis army in a fight, the Wraith stack ended up causing much more damage to my army than the Vampires...
... against another human they can even be safely ignored for a while (learning from my experience, I'd certainly prioritize the Wraith, Lich and Spectral Dragon stacks vs. Necroplis).
...Vampire Lords are average...

I suggest you check out the following thread http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... php?t=9018
Page 3, Elvin's combat-replay Inferno vs. Necro.

Id like to see Bane ignoring THOSE vampires. They pretty much make seducers disappear from the highlights.

p.s - I didnt bring in Elvin's original link to this thread, cause I didnt ask for his permition.