Necromany changes in 2.1 (take a seat: you'll need it)

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Jolly Joker
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Necromany changes in 2.1 (take a seat: you'll need it)

Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 27 2007, 15:22

Well. Necro has changed dramatically. The changes might make Necropolis the most interesting faction to play - EVER, in any heroes game.

Necromancy is 20%, 30%, 40% for basic, advanced and expert skill, respectively.
You'll get a certain amount of Dark Energy each week, depending on hero level, buildings and so on. Don't expect masses. I started a game and started with 201 points of DE. The Pillar of Bones will add 150 points to this. You'll get more the better your hero gets. *catches his breath*
Err, different creatures to raise cost a different amount of Dark Energy, for example (figures I actually had):

18 Skeletons: 39 points (
9 Skeleton Warriors: 30 points
18 Skeleton Warriors: 60 points
Umm, 7 SPECTRES: 87 points
Umm, 3 Liches: 150 points

Raise Archers as an ability is gone. Instead Mark of the Necromancer is Necro ability now.
This is what I found about what is raising what:
Level 1 and 2 creatures will raise Skeletons (no matter whether upgraded or not: Familiars raise Skellys). Shooter units will raise skeleton ARCHERS (Gremlins and MGs, Archers and Marksmen).
Blackbear Riders (upgraded Level 3) allowed me to raise SPECTRES. I could have raised 11 Spectres out of 24 beaten BBRs (with advanced Necromancy, I think), could raise only 7, though, due to lack of DE).
I attacked a stack of Druids (with 120 Skelly Archers, 2 dozen Zombies, 9 Ghosts and 7 Spectres). I killed those 25 Druids without any loss at all and could have raised 8 LICHES out of it (I had only points for 3, though), which seems to hint at getting Liches out of spell-casting creatures (and probably Arch-Liches out of the upgraded ones).

That's all I know at this point. I don't know whether Necromancy skill is necessary or not to raise higher level creatures. I don't know whether Dragons will raise Dragons (which I'd guess). I've no idea whether you can raise Vamps and Wraiths as well (maybe not).

But it looks as though things have become a whole new ball game for Necro (and don't let me even start about how great this plays).

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Postby Phobos » Jan 27 2007, 15:27

This is fantastic news! I can't wait to get to use this new Necromancy!

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Postby Elvin » Jan 27 2007, 15:28

...:shh:

Wow...Thanks for the warning...The chair was needed.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 27 2007, 15:36

So they're slowly turning stuff into their H4 equivalent... and i'll bet won't even realize it, and praise them for their originality. God, i hate humanity.

Don't really like the Dark Energy concept, but as long as it's balanced...
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 27 2007, 15:42

It goes far beyond H 4. In fact, the only thing that is like H 4 is the fact that you can raise more than one creature, but they do it without the downsides H 4 had here, because it looks like it depends completely on the creatures you fight what you can raise, and you may have to do fights without being able to raise, so you have to actually decide whether you want to "waste" your energy on, say, Ghosts, because you fought Bear Riders, or spare the energy to raise a Lich or two in your next fight against some druids.

So while this is indeed more based on H 4 now, it's completely different as well.

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Postby Alamar » Jan 27 2007, 16:04

I remember discussing [almost] exactly this sort of a system earlier in a "balance Necromancy" thread a long time ago. The conclusion that I came to is that a change of this nature was too radical ..... no wonder the patch took so long .... This type of change COULD be a headache to get the balance right.

How does the balance seem so far?

I would think that by adding in the Dark Energy into the mix at least you've got a shot at balancing it properly AND it will be more interesting than what I was proposing earlier ...

NOTE: The system we were discussing earlier didn't include building perks ... just the type of creatures you fought and what level your hero was .... Also my system didn't give you a choice -> you could just raise X amount of XP per week based on your hero's level. This new system looks interesting indeed.

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EDIT: I obviously haven't played with the system but it sounds very promising!!

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 27 2007, 17:41

Hmm. Just raised Plague Zombies from Horned Overseers. Plague Zombies cost 6 points per creature, btw.

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Postby Elvin » Jan 27 2007, 17:54

Since mark of the necromancer became an ability, now what does master of curses unlock? Or is there nothing there anymore?
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Postby TheJet » Jan 27 2007, 18:03

So... I take it I should finish up the Necromancer campaign before I apply the patch then... I'm still on track to hit the Necro ultimate ability, and I'd hate to have wasted all that time up to this point... Sounds like the skill wheel will need to have some changes after this update.

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Postby Amis » Jan 27 2007, 18:16

Elvin wrote:Since mark of the necromancer became an ability, now what does master of curses unlock? Or is there nothing there anymore?


It could be something connected with dark energy. And what about
JJ, can you test if one can raise creatures from elemental or mechanical creatures. And do you know anything about training yet?

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Postby Shauku » Jan 27 2007, 18:59

Please JJ, keep bringing the good stuff :)

No Vampires raised for the moment?

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Postby King Imp » Jan 27 2007, 19:07

As long as this works properly and the game understands to raise the upgraded units when beating an upgraded unit, then I'm fine with this.

I know you said it does, but Nival has a way of screwing things up constantly.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 27 2007, 19:18

Sure. Mechanical and Elemental (and undead) uncreatures can't be raised. I know for fact about mechanical and undead, but didn't fight Elementals yet.
Training is limited to 7 creatures per week with Training Grounds and 20 per week with TG and Hall of Heroes.

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Postby Pitsu » Jan 27 2007, 20:53

Conceptually good fixes. It is beyond me why they couldn't do it already in the original game, but scratch the original system and build something completely new in a *patch*... I remember how big issue it was when NWC decided/agreed to do minor modifications to fortress stats in SoD expansion.

I understand 1.41 does not have it yet, and people without HoF have to wait for another soonTM? I would love to give the new system a try.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 27 2007, 21:16

Pitsu wrote: It is beyond me why they couldn't do it already in the original game, but scratch the original system and build something completely new in a *patch*...


H4 BAD... HULK SMASH.

Of course once they buy the game you can show them it's really not... and yes JJ, i know it's not the same, but it is a pretty logical progresion, something that should have been done in the first place, as opposed to pretending H4 didn't exist. There's actualy a glimmer of hope for H6 after all.
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Postby AllanPoe » Jan 27 2007, 22:10

This sounds interesting. Necro is my favourite faction but after a few maps you get bored collecting archers and smashing the opposition after a few months. Let's hope these changes bring new strategies into the game.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jan 27 2007, 22:22

It is an interesting change. I hope the levels of dark energy needed will help balance it and not result in large numbers of higher levels of creatures instead of huge stacks of archers. Too many free higher level creatures would make the necros even more powerful than before and may make them able to rush anyone with impunity.

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Postby okrane » Jan 27 2007, 22:46

awsome.... finally some good news

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Postby Omega_Destroyer » Jan 28 2007, 4:04

A nice throwback to the days of Heroes 4.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 28 2007, 10:00

Nah, it's not nearly H4.
First thing is, Dark Energy levels are really limiting, especially for the higher creatures. 50 points for a Lich. With the Pillar of Bones, who'll "produce" DE only starting with the new week a high level Necro might have something like 400 points per week.
Of course, having two Necro towns with two Pillars will add to it.
The system looks like the following:
Foot sloggers with low HPs (6 and below I think) raise basic Skeletons. Sloggers from 7 to, well, 20 or 25 or so raise Plague Zombies. Shooters raise Skeleton Archers. Sloggers beyond that raise Spectres. Even Depp Hydras raise Spectres. Spell casting units raise Liches.
Raising costs so far are:
Skeletons: 2 1/6 points
S. Archers: 3 1/3 points
Plague Zombies: 6 points
Spectres: 12 and something points
Liches: 50 points

The interesting thing is that you cannot "plan" an army because it depends on the map. You won't have many Skeleton Archers. I'm doing a hell of a lot with Zombies now. Mark of the Necro, Zombies and Raise Dead accomplishes a lot.


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