Less Dragons as top lvl creature pls!

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Slayer of Cliffracers
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 3 2010, 12:14

parcaleste wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:... Shadow Dragons/Black Dragons
Emerald Dragons/Green Dragons
Fire Dragon/Magma Dragon.

So 6 kinds of dragons. Compare that to Heroes III...

    Green Dragons/Gold Dragons
    Red Dragons/Black Dragons
    Faerie Dragons
    Azure Dragons
    Rust Dragons
    Crystal Dragons

Yikes! :baby:


Yes, there are basically 6 types of dragons (counting upgraded dragons) in Heroes III, 2 types of dragons (black and faerie) in Heroes IV and 3 types of dragons in Heroes V.

Less dragons is basically like saying no dragons at all. I say MORE DRAGONS!

We need to add one dragon-type for each god in the Heroes of Might and Magic world. These need not be in any factions army list but they should be in.

Light- Gold Dragons (already in Heroes III).
Black Dragons - Black Dragons (already in Heroes V, VI, III, II?, I?).
Water- Sea Serpants (aquatic dragons)
Fire- Fire Dragon (already in Heroes V)
Air- Azure Dragon (as in Heroes III)
Earth- Green Dragon (already in Heroes V)
Order- Law-Guardian (a chinese dragon basically, very appropriate for order dragon given meaning of dragons in said culture).
Chaos- Hydra-Dragon (a dragon with many heads)

In addition to the Faerie Dragon of course.
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Postby Soronarr » Sep 3 2010, 12:15

ThunderTitan wrote:
Typo.. a MAN with superpower is not really a (G)god.
Sure, you can call him a god if you want, but it's the same as calling a stool "fish".

A god that can be easily fooled, defeated, tricked and is in essence very limited, doesn't feel godly at all.


Then you must follow an abrahamic religion, coz in any others only the leader god, and in most not even then, is immune to being tricked or defeated.



Which is exactly why they feel so underwhelming. They don't feel like a powerful force, more like tinpot dictators just waiting to be killed.

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Postby Soronarr » Sep 3 2010, 12:18

B.t.w. - cna we have other units done like that?

Just add Color/mineral/Element <CreatureName> and we can have potentially thousands of creatures.


Blue Angel
Fairy Hydra
Crimson Minotaur
Crystal Dragon Jesus

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 3 2010, 12:25

Soronarr wrote:Which is exactly why they feel so underwhelming. They don't feel like a powerful force, more like tinpot dictators just waiting to be killed.


What did that guy Nietzsche said again?

Plus, you're making it sound so easy to kill a god... when one can easily make them incredibly hard to kill, which would benefit a story better then the deity being invincible, indestructible etc. and just there as decoration (up until it's needed for the deux ex machina at the end).

@Slayer of Cliffracers

Yeah, we should totally have the same creature over and over again, just coloured differently...

And the lore doesn't really support Order and Chaos dragons, as the elemental ones are technically her dragon children, while Chaos seems to have spawned the demons instead, with the most powerful being equivalent of the elemental dragons.

But as long as they stop adding them to towns and give us plenty of other neutrals they can have as many dragons as they want.
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Postby Tress » Sep 3 2010, 13:15

God as omnipotent creature is bad for any fiction. If he interferes with story then it diminishes intput of acting heroes, and it creates deusex machina situation that is generally considered as bad thing. Secondly if God is allmighty then there can only be one of those, otherwise it will create irresistible force paradox. I wont start on commenting on Bibles logic out of respect for people's religious feeling (and fear of being banned) but imo biblical concepts shouldn't be brought up when discussing fiction and logic.
Basically all mighty god as plot device is useless, for fantasy literature because he either cant act or if he do he creates Deusex machina. I have red only one fantasy book where human god was based on Christianity god. I think it was David Eddings "Saphire rose", but as I said such god was shown as even if he was thought omnipotent he was unable to act and thus was not really used as plot device.
Besides if dragon gods seem odd to someone, they should check god emperor of dune where "God" is portrayed as hideous worm creature. If someone diss that concept he is dissing literary classic.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Sep 3 2010, 14:39

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes, there are basically 6 types of dragons (counting upgraded dragons) in Heroes III, 2 types of dragons (black and faerie) in Heroes IV and 3 types of dragons in Heroes V.


Why does the undead dragons count in H3 but not in H4? And then there were the Dragon Golems...
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Postby MattII » Sep 3 2010, 18:30

parcaleste wrote:Green Dragons/Gold Dragons
Red Dragons/Black Dragons
Faerie Dragons
Azure Dragons
Rust Dragons
Crystal Dragons

Faerie, Azure, Rust and Crystal don't count for much as they were rarely seen, and when they were you'd hardly ever be able to recruit one (kill 3 Azures to recruits 1? Bad investment, especially considering their price).

H3 had (basically) 3/3 dragons in 8/9 towns, so 0.375/0.333
H4 had (basically) 2 dragons (4*1/2 to account for the alternates) in 6 towns, so 0.333
H5 had 3/4/4 dragons in 6/7/8 towns, so 0.5/0.571/0.5

See the issue?
Last edited by MattII on Sep 3 2010, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Soronarr » Sep 3 2010, 21:12

tress wrote:God as omnipotent creature is bad for any fiction. If he interferes with story then it diminishes intput of acting heroes, and it creates deusex machina situation that is generally considered as bad thing. Secondly if God is allmighty then there can only be one of those, otherwise it will create irresistible force paradox. I wont start on commenting on Bibles logic out of respect for people's religious feeling (and fear of being banned) but imo biblical concepts shouldn't be brought up when discussing fiction and logic.
Basically all mighty god as plot device is useless, for fantasy literature because he either cant act or if he do he creates Deusex machina. I have red only one fantasy book where human god was based on Christianity god. I think it was David Eddings "Saphire rose", but as I said such god was shown as even if he was thought omnipotent he was unable to act and thus was not really used as plot device.
Besides if dragon gods seem odd to someone, they should check god emperor of dune where "God" is portrayed as hideous worm creature. If someone diss that concept he is dissing literary classic.



Bull***

As evident by Tolkiens writing, that has PLENTY of deep history, interesting plots and great battles.
And IMHO, Dune is garbage.

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Postby Tress » Sep 3 2010, 21:59

And IMHO, Dune is garbage.

Somehow I feel that everything that doesnt fit your narrow standards is considered garbage, HOMM_ garbage, any blizzard universe - garbage, frank herbert garbage , greek mythology- garbage.That pretty much leaves only Bible and LOTR as not-garbage. I am not a huge fan either but like it or no, but those books are probably way more popular and with more intrinsic value than anything I, you or many actual fiction writers will ever create. It is immortal classic just like LOTR. It would be same as if I would claim that LOTR is garbage.

As evident by Tolkiens writing, that has PLENTY of deep history, interesting plots and great battles


Yes and even though LOTR have supreme deity it generally takes little action, and action is simply redirected to 1 or 2 levels lower, to wizards that are roughly speaking something between man and god, and for purposes of plot and story telling we just come to the same situation again.

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Postby Soronarr » Sep 3 2010, 22:13

tress wrote:
And IMHO, Dune is garbage.

Somehow I feel that everything that doesnt fit your narrow standards is considered garbage, HOMM_ garbage, any blizzard universe - garbage, frank herbert garbage , greek mythology- garbage.That pretty much leaves only Bible and LOTR as not-garbage. I am not a huge fan either but like it or no, but those books are probably way more popular and with more intrinsic value than anything I, you or many actual fiction writers will ever create. It is immortal classic just like LOTR. It would be same as if I would claim that LOTR is garbage.


No. I have a broad system of categorizing thing. Things I like and are good, things I like and are mediocre, things I don't care about, things I hate, but are OK, things I hate and are garbage.
I give credit where it's due.

Dune is just...meh. Not garbage, but you shouldn't take everything I say too literaly.


Yes and even though LOTR have supreme deity it generally takes little action, and action is simply redirected to 1 or 2 levels lower, to wizards that are roughly speaking something between man and god, and for purposes of plot and story telling we just come to the same situation again.


No, it's not the same situation...because it's not the same. That much should be obvious.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 4 2010, 7:41

Dune is just...meh.


Wow, deja vu... it's Corribus all over again...

Gaidal Cain wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes, there are basically 6 types of dragons (counting upgraded dragons) in Heroes III, 2 types of dragons (black and faerie) in Heroes IV and 3 types of dragons in Heroes V.


Why does the undead dragons count in H3 but not in H4? And then there were the Dragon Golems...


Probably because the orignal post about it failed to include the Bone/Ghost dragons too... posting inertia at work.
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Postby Qurqirish Dragon » Sep 4 2010, 12:26

MattII wrote:
parcaleste wrote:Green Dragons/Gold Dragons
Red Dragons/Black Dragons
Faerie Dragons
Azure Dragons
Rust Dragons
Crystal Dragons

Faerie, Azure, Rust and Crystal don't count for much as they were rarely seen, and when they were you'd hardly ever be able to recruit one (kill 3 Azures to recruits 1? Bad investment, especially considering their price).

H3 had (basically) 3/3 dragons in 8/9 towns, so 0.375/0.333
H4 had (basically) 2 dragons (4*1/2 to account for the alternates) in 6 towns, so 0.333
H5 had 3/4/4 dragons in 6/7/8 towns, so 0.5/0.571/0.5

See the issue?


If you are going to divide the H4 by 2 to account for alternates, then shouldn't you note that each town had 5 units, instead of 7? :|

I'd happily take one or two redundant units if it meant 40% more overall.

For the sarchasm-impaired:
Yes, I know that even though you could only build 5 units, the towns had 8- I'm just using the bookkeeping method in the comparison to make a point.
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Postby MattII » Sep 4 2010, 17:14

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:If you are going to divide the H4 by 2 to account for alternates, then shouldn't you note that each town had 5 units, instead of 7? :|

How does having 5 creatures affect what the top-tier creature in each town is?

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 4 2010, 21:30

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:For the sarchasm-impaired:


Relax, my chasm is quite sared...
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Postby Qurqirish Dragon » Sep 5 2010, 13:35

MattII wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:If you are going to divide the H4 by 2 to account for alternates, then shouldn't you note that each town had 5 units, instead of 7? :|

How does having 5 creatures affect what the top-tier creature in each town is?


You are saying the quality of the rosters is based solely on not having top-level dragons. I'm saying that sacrificing half the roster to get rid of that condition is stupid. Otherwise, why not have 3 factions with 1 unit each, but no dragons? That would be the best of all!
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Postby Corlagon » Sep 5 2010, 15:04

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:As for the dragon-god thing, I do not make the mistake of treating the lore of Heroes V as an objective factual account of events, particularly because there is a continuation between Heroes IV and Heroes V referenced in the campaign+town descriptions, and this conflicts with some aspects of the time-line (like the necromancers originating as wizards and the wizards creating so many creatures), which we know cannot be true. It is largely fiction within fiction, fantasy within fantasy ;).


There were only about three town bios making reference to Erathia and Aranorn and they were in custom maps. You can be 99% certain they were left in the game by accident. Hardly a decent reason to discredit the entire H5 backstory into some sort of in-universe apocryph.
Last edited by Corlagon on Sep 5 2010, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MattII » Sep 5 2010, 16:47

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:You are saying the quality of the rosters is based solely on not having top-level dragons.

No, I'm saying that having too many dragons (all at top level) is a sign that the designers couldn't be bothered to try and come up with something more interesting. The same goes for the Dungeon and Fortress lineups, a desire to be new, both in form and in substance, but the lack of imagination to come up with some really good factions.

I'm saying that sacrificing half the roster to get rid of that condition is stupid.

One creature and one creature alone doesn't count as half-the-roster.

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Postby Avonu » Sep 5 2010, 18:35

Corlagon wrote:There were only about three town bios making reference to Erathia and Aranorn and they were in custom maps. You can be 99% certain they were left in the game by accident. Hardly a decent reason to discredit the entire H5 backstory into some sort of in-universe apocryph.

Four at least. And they were in single-player mission - Nival forgot to change cities bios there.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 5 2010, 19:31

Oops - you're right, I've done an audit and it seems I totally underestimated the sheer number of these mistakes.

History of Ammi-eshuh is the history of permanent struggle between the Death and the Great Forest of the Aranorn Elves. Every night hundreds of the dead walk to the town walls and destroy the young forest growth which tries to secure a place under the sun. During the day the Great Forest takes its ground back, and then the cycle repeats.


In the old days, a majestic city was rising here - one of the first founded by refugees from Erathia. During its history the town survived many wars but finally has been destroyed. Now, when Shagarakti was built on the ruins, the ancient graves serve as a source of reinforcements for the Undead army.


Each Demon must visit Gradl - the first Demon town in Axeoth - at least once during their lifetime. That's where it all started, and according to the legend that's where it all is going to end. Every week pilgrims come to town, providing it reliable protection.


Many years ago Elf troops came to help the defenders of Hadiya fighting against the Undead. In memory of that battle the Druids of Aranorn put a powerful spell on the graves of the fallen now every week crystals grow on the burial mounds, to protect the dead from the dark magic of Necromancers.


Lost in the thickets of Aranorn, Meneflor is a Druid town. Here they talk to the Forest and absorb its power and wisdom. Some of the Druids become hermits and get from the Forest permission to settle down near Meneflor. They are always ready to help in case of emergency.


Timberwood's resource warehouse is a gift from the Aranorn Elves to the Humans, to commemorate the signing of the White Treaty. Now the Great Forest of the Elves produces twice the regularly amount of wood for Timberwood residents.


According to a very old tradition, the annual marksmanship competition in which the best Aranorn archers participate, takes place in Halthilloth. And for all these years Halthilloth was home for the best arrow makers even the town smithy, against all customs, works exclusively for the needs of the contenders.


Shuma-ishkun was founded by Necromancers in the long-ago times, when the plague raged all over Axeoth. These were the years of despair, and many came to Shuma-ishkun hoping to live on after the inevitable death. The bodies of these unfortunates still serve as a source of military might for Shuma-ishkun.


The legend says that the Gate to another world is hidden inside the Amel-ishkun mountain - the world where the dead will find eternal peace. That's why hundreds of the dead are gnawing into the mountain, incidentally extracting tons of ore. The Necross rulers don't interfere - it's the third location of the mythical Gate the search for which provides a good source of income for Necross.


Yaffiah is the place where Emilia, the founder of Arcane, is buried. In the middle of the town a majestic monument to Emilia rises and if enemy gets close to Azhar walls, defenders of the town just need to take one look at the monument to restore their spirits and repel the attack.


As if Sandro wasn't enough, they killed Emilia too and misspelled her nation. At least I guess tress will be pleased to hear it. :lol:

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Postby Mirez » Sep 5 2010, 19:44

lol I found this mistake just now, not relevant with the h3 lore but a mistake nevertheless

[img]http://a.imageshack.us/img837/5521/22192321.png[/img]
Last edited by Mirez on Sep 6 2010, 12:27, edited 1 time in total.
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