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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 11 2007, 18:39

@JJ

oh yeah, he back paddled out of that one fast... and started making assumption on H6's budget to help his backstroke...

And i'm curious, what did Nival learn exactly that's so not transferable that Ubi can't make a new developer stick to the lessons? (not that i delude myself that any other dev Ubi picked would have done that much of a better job, the money being the same and all)

>Trust me, they're aware of its lack of the "I" in A.I<


They just rather insult people and lie then admit it?! (see MistWeaver's post and the "advice" about difficulty levels they gave).
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 11 2007, 18:45

Oh, and Orfinn, what does liking Starcraft have to do with my thoughts on a TBS? Or are you implying that my standards are too high because i want balance, visuals and gameplay to be given the same importance?!
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Postby Sir Charles » Oct 11 2007, 20:11

@ TT

-------------------------------------

quote from "ThunderTitan"

"@JJ

oh yeah, he back paddled out of that one fast... and started making assumption on H6's budget to help his backstroke...

And i'm curious, what did Nival learn exactly that's so not transferable that Ubi can't make a new developer stick to the lessons? (not that i delude myself that any other dev Ubi picked would have done that much of a better job, the money being the same and all) "

-------------------------------------

I "backpaddled"? What ARE you talking about? I simply stated that when H5 was being shopped around for a developer, the best one available for the budget alloted to H5 AND someone with TBS experience, that Nival was the best available. Then I mentioned that with the success H5 has had, Ubisoft will most likely increase the alloted budget for H6. At the very least it'll remain the same as for h5. But the situation still remains the same, there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.

In regards to the AI, I certainly haven't seen anyone from either Ubi or Nival lie about it or its shortcomings. It's far from a great AI. But it's also not an absolutely horrible AI either. It has improved over the past several months via patches. But I think to re-work it from scratch would involve more man-hours and an increase in the current budget to pull it off. And at this late of a date from the initial release, I don't see Ubisoft forking over the capital to do it. And truthfully, I'd rather see them focus their revenue on H6's development. Fabrice & Nival are fully aware of the AI's deficiencies and it'll certainly be a priority for H6 earlier on.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 11 2007, 22:55

>I certainly haven't seen anyone from either Ubi or Nival lie about it or its shortcomings.<



Sorry, i should have said "praising it's stupidity"...

And do show me where they admit the AI sucks?!

>I simply stated that when H5 was being shopped around for a developer, the best one available for the budget alloted to H5 AND someone with TBS experience, that Nival was the best available.<


Yeah... in your second post...

>At the very least it'll remain the same as for h5.<


And this isn't back paddling either, i presume...


>But it's also not an absolutely horrible AI either.<


what, it's good that it's not the lowest you can go... i certainly can take comfort in that.


Oh, and JJ: >But the situation still remains the same, there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.<
I this still me taking it out of context? :tongue:
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 12 2007, 6:50

ThunderTitan wrote:Oh, and JJ: >But the situation still remains the same, there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.<
I this still me taking it out of context? :tongue:

No, that's a perfectly fair and valid quote. But I wonder what you make out of it, that is so terrible.
Anyway, why would they change the developer? Makes no sense at all at this stage. If you look at the development history and the "product curve" and add in some other not so public info, why would you change anything, just when Nival got a really firm grip on things and produces a top notch product, showing that they are not only promising but capable as well. You'll see that people's comments about ToE will be enthusiastic, and they will get even more so, when they see patch 3.1/1.6 which will come this month.
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Postby PhoenixReborn » Oct 12 2007, 11:52

Jolly Joker wrote:>when they see patch 3.1/1.6 which will come this month.<


You shouldn't have said that! 2 years from now when everyone is arguing about heroes 6 posters will be saying you can't trust Jolly Joker because he was wrong about the patching schedule.

If you don't believe me just look at how they snapped up Fabrice's we'll patch 'once a month' comment. It's the first ammunition in everyone's gun.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 12 2007, 12:55

>No, that's a perfectly fair and valid quote. But I wonder what you make out of it, that is so terrible.<


It says the exact same thing as the one you said was unfair... you do know they made Etherlords, right? So the question is, what do you find so terrible about it? because i just quoted it, you're the one that felt something about it was detrimental... :tongue:


>Anyway, why would they change the developer?<


As i said before, i do agree that asking them to change devs is rather pointless as they can't really get one that would increase the chances of getting a great game from the get-go...


@PhoenixReborn
2 years? Maybe 2 years ago... and who mentioned the "once a month" comment? Except 4 you right now...
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Oct 12 2007, 13:34

Jolly Joker wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote: You'll see that people's comments about ToE will be enthusiastic, and they will get even more so, when they see patch 3.1/1.6 which will come this month.


Well, my copy of TOTE will not even arrive until the 17th probably but what are some things that 3.1 is supposed to change?

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 12 2007, 14:05

ThunderTitan wrote:
>No, that's a perfectly fair and valid quote. But I wonder what you make out of it, that is so terrible.<


It says the exact same thing as the one you said was unfair... you do know they made Etherlords, right? So the question is, what do you find so terrible about it? because i just quoted it, you're the one that felt something about it was detrimental... :tongue:


It doesn't say the exact same thing. And *I* don't find anything terrible about it - that's why I asked YOU what you'd find so terrible about it - because I don't see anything.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 12 2007, 14:06

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote: You'll see that people's comments about ToE will be enthusiastic, and they will get even more so, when they see patch 3.1/1.6 which will come this month.


Well, my copy of TOTE will not even arrive until the 17th probably but what are some things that 3.1 is supposed to change?

GOW

You'll see that when you read the readme of 3.1, sorry.
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Postby MistWeaver » Oct 12 2007, 14:38

>Anyway, why would they change the developer?
>Makes no sense at all at this stage.


Hmm.. maybe because all major H5 developers are not in Nival anymore ? (read: After finishing new game of famous series /HoMM/ moved to newly created Nival Online which was sold, so someone /Nival CEO/ could make a lot of money)

Ft. Lauderdale, FL October 25, 2006. Nival Interactive, Inc., an international developer of high-quality computer, video and mobile games, today announced that it has sold its massive multiplayer online (MMO) spin-off Nival Online to an undisclosed party. Terms of the transaction were not announced.

http://www.nival.com/press/2006/5137/

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 12 2007, 14:50

So who made ToE then?
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Postby Sir Charles » Oct 12 2007, 14:54

quote="ThunderTitan"
"Sorry, i should have said "praising it's stupidity"...

And do show me where they admit the AI sucks?! "

-----------------------

Can you really picture a gaming company stating publically "our AI sucks"? No. Do I think it does? No. Do they think it does? No. Apparently you do though. Fine. Everyone's entitled to thier opinion. However, I do know that they're aware of the shortcomings. I do know that they'll place the AI's development higher on the list of priorities for H6. But do I have a quote for you? No. Does George Bush know that the majority of the world's population thinks he's an utter moron? Yes. Do I have a quote for you proving that? No. Not everything can be proven with a quote, yet at the same time one can easily assume certain things.

------------------------

"Yeah... in your second post...

And this isn't back paddling either, i presume... "

------------------------

Ummm...okay then. Firstly you should realize that I wasn't aware that I was trying to make a legal argument and that my quote would be scrutinized by the Heroes legal department. I thought I was just commenting on something based on my own opinion and knowledge of things. Please forgive my assumption on that fact. Secondly, how about you get over yourself. I'm not "back paddling" on anything. It's called clarifying your statement. You made it abundantly clear that you didn't understand what I was saying...so I elaborated. I didn't change my opinion. I expanded on it. And I'm also pretty certain that you're aware of that. Don't be such an @ss.


---------------------------
what, it's good that it's not the lowest you can go... i certainly can take comfort in that.
---------------------------

Again, you're reading too much into my comment. It's a middle of the road AI. I think the AI does well. I'd prefer that it was much better. There IS room for improvement. But it currently provides a nice challenge. I don't have any experience on how it preforms on the lower difficulties, so I can't speak to that. But don't make it seem as though it's utter cr@p. It's not. Look to H4 for that.

---------------------------

Oh, and JJ: >But the situation still remains the same, there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.<
I this still me taking it out of context? :tongue:[/quote]

--------------------------

Okay, I just don't get your POINT. That statement is my opinion (based on numerous facts). What exactly is wrong with it? Please...elaborate oh genius of all things Heroes? *sigh*
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Postby MistWeaver » Oct 12 2007, 15:01

Jolly Joker wrote:>So who made ToE then?


I said *major* developers. And making addon is not the same thing as making game from scratch, right ?

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 12 2007, 15:11

So which "major" developers are gone since February 06? What exactly DID they develop - or more specific - what was their part in the development?

Frankly, I can't say that I have the feeling that Nival would suffer something like a creative loss since Feb 06. I'd say, on the contrary, except I don't, because I don't know exactly who made what and who is responsible for what, and - yes - cleaning the house and adding a wing is not quite the same than building a new one, I agree.

On the other hand, seeing that you were not so enthusiastic about the game from the beginning - shouldn't you welcome the fact that "major" developers have left the boat?
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Postby Cleanpea » Oct 12 2007, 15:25

My ToE will arrive next week. I am looking forward to it.

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Postby PhoenixReborn » Oct 12 2007, 16:02

ThunderTitan wrote:@PhoenixReborn
2 years? Maybe 2 years ago... and who mentioned the "once a month" comment? Except 4 you right now...


We'll start with this one:

>posted Friday September 21st 2007
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote: Patches have already been verrry slow comming out, much slower than the once per month that was promised.

GOW<


from this thread:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7064

There's plenty more on the official forum but I'll stick to CH.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 12 2007, 16:13

Sir Charles wrote:>Okay, I just don't get your POINT. That statement is my opinion (based on numerous facts). What exactly is wrong with it? Please...elaborate oh genius of all things Heroes?<


As i said, ask JJ, he's the one that went all up in arms about it the first time... maybe he can explain it better then me. (or at least with more enthusiasm, at least to him it would be something new).


>I didn't change my opinion. I expanded on it.<


just like Bush expanded on his conditions for victory in Iraq... you lowered the standard without admitting to it.

Nival made the lowest bid, that's why they were chosen... oh, but they have TBS experience too, so at least they didn't chose the cheaper guys with no TBS experience.

Also, you changed H5 for H6... in parentheses... i know i'm back paddling when i do it... :devil: why is it different for you?


>Can you really picture a gaming company stating publicly "our AI sucks"?<


I also have problems imagining people not taking things so literal... a simple "the AI has problems" would suffice... but NO, the AI is working great, because it lets us win... hey, guess what, so does ZERO AI...


>Does George Bush know that the majority of the world's population thinks he's an utter moron? Yes. Do I have a quote for you proving that? No.<


I just couldn't resist:
"One of the great things about books is, sometimes there are some fantastic pictures."

If that's not an admission i don't know what is.

And on a more serious note: "I would like to thank all you Canadians for your warm welcome at the airport. Especially those of you who waved (Pause) with all 5 fingers."
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 12 2007, 17:18

ThunderTitan wrote:
Sir Charles wrote:>Okay, I just don't get your POINT. That statement is my opinion (based on numerous facts). What exactly is wrong with it? Please...elaborate oh genius of all things Heroes?<


As i said, ask JJ, he's the one that went all up in arms about it the first time... maybe he can explain it better then me. (or at least with more enthusiasm, at least to him it would be something new).


No, buddy, not this time. Who's back-pedalling now? YOU quoted this, when I told you that first quote was unfair and posted the WHOLE quote. *I* said, that quote was fair, but I wouldn't understand what's wrong with it, so you quoted it instead. So it's YOU who's being asked why you quoted it in the first place and to prove what exactly. You SAID it would say the same thing, but it definitely does NOT - which I already said.
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Postby Sir Charles » Oct 12 2007, 18:11

ThunderTitan wrote: just like Bush expanded on his conditions for victory in Iraq... you lowered the standard without admitting to it.

Nival made the lowest bid, that's why they were chosen... oh, but they have TBS experience too, so at least they didn't chose the cheaper guys with no TBS experience.

Also, you changed H5 for H6... in parentheses... i know i'm back paddling when i do it... :devil: why is it different for you?


Just out of curiosity, are you delusional? I never lowered any standards. I stated that for the current budget, Nival was the best available. Period. What you're reading into it is that Ubisoft looked for the cheapest developer and just happened to get one with TBS experience. No. They looked around at all the developers with TBS experience FIRST...then let the companies put in bids. Nival's was the most attractive. If Ubi didn't think they were qualified to do the job they wouldn't have hired them. You don't just hire the cheapest workers you can find because you'll end up LOSING money in the end due to a sub-standard product being made. And H5 is NOT sub-standard. Regardless of your opinion. It has sold VERY well and the majority of fans really like it.

As for the parentheses...I never changed anything. I was saying that considering how successful H5 has been, the budget for H6 will be increased...not the current h5 budget. Therefore, no AI budget increase for h5.

Concerning that first quote that JJ said was an unfair quote...sorry. I now see what you meant by it. It was just an example of how to represent a quote rather than a problem with what was said in the quote. At least that's how I'm reading it now.
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