MM8: Who's the 2nd earliest dark elf who can join my party?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

By 2nd, I mean the first dark elf besides Rohani Oscleton. She sucks and is only level 5, I was already lv 10 with a full party when she joined the adventurers inn. I wanted Jasp Thelbourne, but I'm lv 16 and he still doesn't want to join!

By the way, I noticed that after promoted they are supposedly called "Dark elf patriarch". Does that mean the females get called Matriarchs? That would be odd to have female patriarchs!

[Phobos]

If you want a really good one, Cauri Blackthorne would be a good choice... she's easy to get - all you need to do is complete the Dark Elf Patriarch quest and she'll join you immeadiately. You can do it any time, but I would advise you to get someone who can fly, preferrably Ithilgore the Dragon. Cauri might make the game too easy for you, however, if you decide to use her early (she's level 50), so do what you think is best.

And no, the females won't be called Matriarchs...

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Thanks, but I'd prefer to stick with characters of my own levels, for gameplay's sake.

As for dragons, I outright refuse to use them - dragons are monsters to be slaughtered to my knights' spear, I refuse to let one of them join my heroic group! My necromancer will have the fly spell shortly anyway.

[HodgePodge]

… As for dragons, I outright refuse to use them - dragons are monsters to be slaughtered to my knights' spear, I refuse to let one of them join my heroic group! My necromancer will have the fly spell shortly anyway.

*sniff sniff* The friendly little dragon in Garrote Gorge isn't a monster … he's only a level five and would love to join your cause. If you're dissatisfied with Rohani Oscleton, then give Ithilgore a chance to prove himself.

When you get to the part where you have to choose alliance members, you'll understand the meaning of the first line in my signature.

[Kareeah Indaga]

As for dragons, I outright refuse to use them - dragons are monsters to be slaughtered to my knights' spear, I refuse to let one of them join my heroic group! My necromancer will have the fly spell shortly anyway.

I find your comment ironic. Heroic group containing a Necromancer?

[Suleman]

As for dragons, I outright refuse to use them - dragons are monsters to be slaughtered to my knights' spear, I refuse to let one of them join my heroic group! My necromancer will have the fly spell shortly anyway.

I find your comment ironic. Heroic group containing a Necromancer?

How dare you so insult the most learned men and women of Jadame? These are the people who have devoted their lives to study life and death. There is nothing unheroicl about that. You should be ashamed.

[Corlagon]

And of course there's nothing unheroic about their leaders Sandro and Thant, the first of whom stole numerous priceless artifacts and started an inter-continental war all on his own, and the second of whom has converted more human beings into vampires than any other soul alive. Such gallant chaps!

[Suleman]

And of course there's nothing unheroic about their leaders Sandro and Thant, the first of whom stole numerous priceless artifacts and started an inter-continental war all on his own, and the second of whom has converted more human beings into vampires than any other soul alive. Such gallant chaps!

Well, everyone stole artifacts at that time. I mean, he actually succeeded in it. How does that make him less a hero than all the others?
There's nothing wrong with transformation to vampire. I mean, it's just a minor change in your sleeping rhtym and a slightly different diet. Nothing wrong with that.

[DaveO]

Just because you have to make a choice between the Dragon Hunters and the Dragons does not mean you need to take a Dragon along. None of the alliance quest require its respective racial member to be present. You do need a Troll briefly for one quest, but he's expendable past that point. Let UndeadHalfOrc play his party and quests as he sees fit.

[Corlagon]

Well, everyone stole artifacts at that time. I mean, he actually succeeded in it. How does that make him less a hero than all the others?

It doesn't, unless you remember that he used those artifacts to raise a phenomenal army of undead Liches, not only desecrating the bodies of countless fallen warriors, but also using these same legions to pillage and burn entire countries full of harmless innocents. Yippee!

[UndeadHalfOrc]

… As for dragons, I outright refuse to use them - dragons are monsters to be slaughtered to my knights' spear, I refuse to let one of them join my heroic group! My necromancer will have the fly spell shortly anyway.

*sniff sniff* The friendly little dragon in Garrote Gorge isn't a monster … he's only a level five and would love to join your cause. If you're dissatisfied with Rohani Oscleton, then give Ithilgore a chance to prove himself.

When you get to the part where you have to choose alliance members, you'll understand the meaning of the first line in my signature.

That's all great! I heard that baby dragons taste like chicken when roasted. I look forward to it

And to respond to the necromancer comment: they are the most heroic characters you can get - they sacrifice their own mortal form to benefit the group!

[Suleman]

Well, everyone stole artifacts at that time. I mean, he actually succeeded in it. How does that make him less a hero than all the others?

It doesn't, unless you remember that he used those artifacts to raise a phenomenal army of undead Liches, not only desecrating the bodies of countless fallen warriors, but also using these same legions to pillage and burn entire countries full of harmless innocents. Yippee!

It's not like the wizards minded the added power, and no one was using those corpses anyway.
All the other "heroes" wage war, too. How is Tarnum or any Ironfist better than the necromancers, then?

[Corlagon]

While they have waged war, and have caused some widespread death and destruction in their wake, Tarnum or the Ironfists have never done this sort of thing to anybody...

The bushes rustle and you prepare for attack. Even in Erathia there are beasts to be wary of. It is not beasts, but peasants. Blood is caked and dried on their faces and wraith-like bodies. Terror grips these peasants and holds them captive. Barely able to stutter out the horrors they were witness to. Finally, after a bit of water and some coaxing one of them tells the tale in a near-senseless jumble of words.

"I-I was farming and my wife was out picking berries with the children." He closes his eyes to squeeze out the images and breathes deeply. "Th-then we were beset upon by a wailing none of us had ever heard before. Frozen in terror, I watched as these ghastly things flew towards my wife and children." He sobs, unable to speak for a moment. "Then I ran and ran and ran. Never looked back. Mortimer found me two days later. But he's dead now, or at least sort of. He walks, but does not see or hear that we are his friends. He killed his own son!" The man finally breaks down completely and sobs like a child. This was worse, much worse. Reports from the others confirm your worst fears.

A rustle comes from a bush alongside the road. You leap off your horse, sword in hand, to investigate. You peer into the bush for a moment and then suddenly thrust your arm inside and pull out a man-sized, red-skinned creature. The pit fiend picks himself off the ground and dusts himself off.

"Who are you and why have you been spying on us!" you demand.

The pit fiend looks at you and smirks. "I am Shalongrarg. I am here on orders from my brother from the north-east."

"And just who is your brother to order you to spy on me?"
"My brother is The Great Lord Jared," the pit fiend declares proudly. "No doubt you have heard of him. His conquests are legendary. All tremble at his name."

The pit fiend's arrogant smile vanishes as you burst out laughing. "Jared? Yes, I know of him. I have heard that he is a two-bit highwayman who leads a ragtag band of hedge thieves on miserable little raids. Legendary conquests? His laughable escapades are like the buzzing of a gnat that is barely worth the effort to swat. And you, Shalongrarg, have the gall to try to intimidate me with such a pathetic reputation!. Tell me, you sunburned toad, what does this laughingstock of a lord want with the great Sandro?"

"I... I have orders to remain silent." Shalongrarg stammers, at a loss for words. Never before has anyone dared to speak of his brother thus.
"Tell me of your brother's plans or I will have you quartered one limb at a time."

The pit fiend slouches and stares silently at the ground. You grab his horns and force him to look you in the eyes. "You have been looking for Sandro and now you have found him. Now tell me why your worm of a brother is interested in him!" Shalongrarg's eyes bulge and ears bleed under the immense pressure of your grip. You pull him close to your face. "I will crush your skull like an eggshell if you don't answer my questions!" You suddenly release the wretched demon, and he falls to the ground. You raise your foot and place it on top of his head.

"Wait, wait!" the pit fiend sobs. "I'll tell you want to know. When my brother learned that you had the artifacts, he ordered his troops to seize them from you at all costs. I was sent to get information on your numbers and movements."

You pick Shalongrarg up by the head again and look him in his terrified eyes again. "So, your brother plans to challenge me. Perhaps some of your people have courage in them. Perhaps they are not all like you, sheep to be slaughtered." With a quick twist of your wrist, Shalongrarg's neck snaps loudly and he falls to the ground. Suddenly you hear a loud noise from all of the bushes surrounding you. A large army attacks you.
.

Now I have nothing against wise Necromancers who understand their own power such as Gauldoth, but gits like Sandro are just plain evil.

[Suleman]

While they have waged war, and have caused some widespread death and destruction in their wake, Tarnum or the Ironfists have never done this sort of thing to anybody...

The bushes rustle and you prepare for attack. Even in Erathia there are beasts to be wary of. It is not beasts, but peasants. Blood is caked and dried on their faces and wraith-like bodies. Terror grips these peasants and holds them captive. Barely able to stutter out the horrors they were witness to. Finally, after a bit of water and some coaxing one of them tells the tale in a near-senseless jumble of words.

"I-I was farming and my wife was out picking berries with the children." He closes his eyes to squeeze out the images and breathes deeply. "Th-then we were beset upon by a wailing none of us had ever heard before. Frozen in terror, I watched as these ghastly things flew towards my wife and children." He sobs, unable to speak for a moment. "Then I ran and ran and ran. Never looked back. Mortimer found me two days later. But he's dead now, or at least sort of. He walks, but does not see or hear that we are his friends. He killed his own son!" The man finally breaks down completely and sobs like a child. This was worse, much worse. Reports from the others confirm your worst fears.

A rustle comes from a bush alongside the road. You leap off your horse, sword in hand, to investigate. You peer into the bush for a moment and then suddenly thrust your arm inside and pull out a man-sized, red-skinned creature. The pit fiend picks himself off the ground and dusts himself off.

"Who are you and why have you been spying on us!" you demand.

The pit fiend looks at you and smirks. "I am Shalongrarg. I am here on orders from my brother from the north-east."

"And just who is your brother to order you to spy on me?"
"My brother is The Great Lord Jared," the pit fiend declares proudly. "No doubt you have heard of him. His conquests are legendary. All tremble at his name."

The pit fiend's arrogant smile vanishes as you burst out laughing. "Jared? Yes, I know of him. I have heard that he is a two-bit highwayman who leads a ragtag band of hedge thieves on miserable little raids. Legendary conquests? His laughable escapades are like the buzzing of a gnat that is barely worth the effort to swat. And you, Shalongrarg, have the gall to try to intimidate me with such a pathetic reputation!. Tell me, you sunburned toad, what does this laughingstock of a lord want with the great Sandro?"

"I... I have orders to remain silent." Shalongrarg stammers, at a loss for words. Never before has anyone dared to speak of his brother thus.
"Tell me of your brother's plans or I will have you quartered one limb at a time."

The pit fiend slouches and stares silently at the ground. You grab his horns and force him to look you in the eyes. "You have been looking for Sandro and now you have found him. Now tell me why your worm of a brother is interested in him!" Shalongrarg's eyes bulge and ears bleed under the immense pressure of your grip. You pull him close to your face. "I will crush your skull like an eggshell if you don't answer my questions!" You suddenly release the wretched demon, and he falls to the ground. You raise your foot and place it on top of his head.

"Wait, wait!" the pit fiend sobs. "I'll tell you want to know. When my brother learned that you had the artifacts, he ordered his troops to seize them from you at all costs. I was sent to get information on your numbers and movements."

You pick Shalongrarg up by the head again and look him in his terrified eyes again. "So, your brother plans to challenge me. Perhaps some of your people have courage in them. Perhaps they are not all like you, sheep to be slaughtered." With a quick twist of your wrist, Shalongrarg's neck snaps loudly and he falls to the ground. Suddenly you hear a loud noise from all of the bushes surrounding you. A large army attacks you.
.

Now I have nothing against wise Necromancers who understand their own power such as Gauldoth, but gits like Sandro are just plain evil.

Now you're confusing the concepts of heroism and good/evil.

[Kareeah Indaga]

How dare you so insult the most learned men and women of Jadame? These are the people who have devoted their lives to study life and death. There is nothing unheroicl about that. You should be ashamed.

I know you should.

Why should the noble lizards who give up comfortable caves and refrain from devouring the rest of the party regardless of how low the food stores get be thought of as less heroic than the spindly spellcasters too cowardly to face final death?

[side_tangent]

It's not like the wizards minded the added power, and no one was using those corpses anyway.

Except most all of them were in use before Sandro came along, as they weren’t corpses before then. And afterwards their souls get trapped in their own corpses, denied a chance at the afterlife and used to slaughter their own family, friends, neighbors etc.

All the other "heroes" wage war, too. How is Tarnum or any Ironfist better than the necromancers, then?

Depends on which game you’re talking about; in WotW Tarnum was an evil git too, near the end. Archibald was a necromancer later on so no better at all.

But in, for example, Clash of Dragons, the Immortal Hero fought to protect others from being overrun by Mutare, free the good Dragons from her control and so on. Not to fuel his own greed for power. Roland fought Archibald so the people of Enroth would have an alternative to Archi. Unlike Sandro and the average lich, they didn’t fight solely for their own personal gain.

[/side_tangent]

[HodgePodge]

When you get to the part where you have to choose alliance members, you'll understand the meaning of the first line in my signature.

Just because you have to make a choice between the Dragon Hunters and the Dragons does not mean you need to take a Dragon along. None of the alliance quest require its respective racial member to be present. You do need a Troll briefly for one quest, but he's expendable past that point. Let UndeadHalfOrc play his party and quests as he sees fit.

We are only making suggestions, not telling anyone how to play or not play his or her game. At least looking at a Dragon Character would be in the best interest of anyone playing MM8; and besides, recruiting as many characters as possible gives more space to store inventory items.

Anyhow, I only mentioned the meaning of my signature line because of the unbelievablity cruelty of those Dragon Hunters.

… Why should the noble lizards who give up comfortable caves and refrain from devouring the rest of the party regardless of how low the food stores get be thought of as less heroic than the spindly spellcasters too cowardly to face final death?

My thoughts exactly.

[Corlagon]

Now you're confusing the concepts of heroism and good/evil.

Seriously, did you really need to quote the whole thing? Anyway, no I'm not, that was simply a fleeting example. I have many more quotes to detail Sandro's less than admirable behaviour. There's nothing heroic that I can see in kidnapping and 'violating' a warlord's daughter, pretending to be a bumbling Wizard to cheat decent people into finding numerous unholy artifacts, killing your own troops for observing your weaknesses, betraying your master and best friend for your own personal gain, throwing a hissy fit when you've been beaten fair and square... I have text examples of all of this, if you'd like them just ask.

[Kareeah Indaga]

Now you're confusing the concepts of heroism and good/evil.

Seriously, did you really need to quote the whole thing? Anyway, no I'm not, that was simply a fleeting example.

I believe he was quibbling over the definition of ‘heroic’. To another Necromancer Sandro’s deeds and power might indeed be worthy of praise. Their foul nature aside, many of his actions are daring, ambitious and contain many other hallmarks of heroic actions in their scope. However, we the players (or most of us anyway) recognize Sandro as the villain, not the hero, as he is the antagonist rather than the protagonist, and is additionally an evil CWD, and therefore do not consider his actions to be heroic, instead reserving that term for actions with good intent.

[Suleman]

Now you're confusing the concepts of heroism and good/evil.

Seriously, did you really need to quote the whole thing? Anyway, no I'm not, that was simply a fleeting example. I have many more quotes to detail Sandro's less than admirable behaviour. There's nothing heroic that I can see in kidnapping and 'violating' a warlord's daughter, pretending to be a bumbling Wizard to cheat decent people into finding numerous unholy artifacts, killing your own troops for observing your weaknesses, betraying your master and best friend for your own personal gain, throwing a hissy fit when you've been beaten fair and square... I have text examples of all of this, if you'd like them just ask.

's not like Conan didn't do all those and more...

[Corlagon]

Misunderstand me not, Sandro's probably my favourite character in the entire series after Tarnum and probably Archibald. Anyway, the original point was that a Jadamean Necromancer 'in a group' is to be considered heroic and that we should be ashamed for thinking otherwise. I suppose I've proved that point wrong at this stage.

Now as for Sandro being a hero to other Necromancers, well of course he's worthy of some praise, but his numerous failures speak for themselves:

I have come to believe that there are two great forces at work in the Universe - creation and destruction - and I have dedicated myself to understanding one of them in the hope of learning the secrets of the Universe as well. Destruction is indiscriminate. It uses all of us for its purposes. There was a time when I thought only necromancers such as myself represented the force of destruction and death. Not true.

All things must crumble. All things must die. This is the one truth in the Universe.

And thus, even a nation commanded by a necromancer (the embodiment of death) must be destroyed. When others like the powerful necromancer, Sandro, sought to control the world, the force of destruction supported them temporarily. Then, for lack of a better description, it changed its mind. Destruction and death turned upon itself. That's why no single man has ever ruled the world for long.

All things must die.

As long as our fickle Universe doesn't notice what you're doing, you're safe!

's not like Conan didn't do all those and more...

Add to the above the aforementioned fact that Sandro has also forced countless mortal souls to reinhabit their bodies as Liches, Skeletons and what have you. That's the equivalent of inflicting unforgiveable torture on hundreds and hundreds of people. Then there's the fact that he started the Restoration Wars, so add indirect genocide to the list. How's that for you?