Which MM has the best character customization rules?

[BMJedi]

Hello, I know that this has probably been discussed to death in earlier threads, and in fact, I'd love to be linked to those threads if you know of any; however, it seems we have a group of new players in here this summer, so I'd like to try to start a new discussion about this.

I am finding that I much prefer the character development system of MM6. This system, in my opinion, had the perfect balance between cost and benefit while still allowing the player to have the most freedom to have his/her own fantasy experience.

Many people complained that the MM6 system was too permissive, and that it caused the various classes to lose their distinctiveness. In my opinion, MM7 and MM8 far overcompensated in response to the complaint. I now find that in order to maximize my enjoyment of MM7 and MM8, I have to use the much-appreciated character editors that have been uploaded to the cloud.

My own system is to use the character editor to put in the desired masteries and grandmasteries for each character in order to customize them to my own D&D-influenced character classes, and then I also use the character editor to make sure that I have paid an appropriate cost.

I also make sure that I have completed the appropriate in-game requirements for mastery and grandmastery, including promotion quests and teacher access, as well as subtracting the appropriate amount of gold in the character editor.

I believe that the system limits itself, because of the scarcity of skill points that is consistent in MM 6-8. You cannot, for example, train a dark elf as both a thief and a mage-fighter, because the game will end before you could ever build an effective mage-fighter-thief.

So, I would love to hear other opinions, and as an idea to throw out there, I would love to have a mod that adjusts the system of MM7 and MM8 to match the system of MM6, with the addition of the grandmastery level of course. It shouldn't be that hard to make such a mod, because all you'd have to do would be to find a way to remove the inappropriate, "this skill level cannot be learned by the ...class" in the teacher houses.

EDIT: the site doesn't let me edit the poll once I've posted it. It should say "customization" and it should be "Worlds of Xeen (WoX)", not "Clouds of Xeen(CoX)".

[hatsforclowns]

Probably MM6. I hate classes, alignments, and any other hobgob. At least with MM6 I had a lot more freedom to play according to my style and my character's attributes, rather than some arbitrary and utterly useless class or alignment.

The class system doesn't worsen the gameplay nor does it deter me from playing the games, but it's just not my style. On the other hand, it's still much better than Morrowind -- the game might just as well give me 100 in all attributes and skills at the start of the game :( The problem with MM7/8 is that the game is too short and the world too small, compared to MM6 which was both long and large.

I usually use an editor to remove the armour skills and give me it's cost in gold, unless the character can only use leather or can GM in it.

What makes Might and Magic so good is its simplicity. IMHO it could use skill groups, a few more skills (and some tweaking), a few more spells (and some tweaking), and a slight orientation towards attribute-based skills...but that's just me. My biggest gripe, however, has always been the world and the story. Larger, longer.

[BMJedi]

I hate classes, alignments, and any other hobgob.

Hm, that's a very interesting way to look at character customization. I've always thought that the classical four-way division of RPG party function was useful, but that individual npc's or players should not be limited in their ability to multiclass - the advancement in one for a time denies advancement in the other for that time, which is very true to real life.

I believe that Gygax first imagined character class as a way to state at character creation a direction in which the player character had allocated his or her education through childhood and up to game start. As such, it is a useful starting point for a game.

Thus, as in MM6, certain characters would have more "mana" and less "hit points", and would have earlier access to certain skills as opposed to later-in-life access to those skills.

But, on which I suspect you would agree with me, the idea that a sentient being is forever locked into a certain career path by age 20 is completely ludicrous.

Therefore, all characters should have access to all skills in the world, depending on how they spend their practice time, as implemented in MM by the skill point system, and as best represented in MM6. (and maybe the earlier incarnations, to which I cannot speak since I have not played them.)

[UndeadHalfOrc]

My own system is to use the character editor to put in the desired masteries and grandmasteries for each character in order to customize them to my own D&D-influenced character classes, and then I also use the character editor to make sure that I have paid an appropriate cost.

I also make sure that I have completed the appropriate in-game requirements for mastery and grandmastery, including promotion quests and teacher access, as well as subtracting the appropriate amount of gold in the character editor.

I totally agree about MM7-MM8. I do much the same, except instead of manually changing the skills and the gold cost, I change the class of the character, go in game to pay to learn the skill or the expertise, then change the class back.

I do that mostly for miscellanous skills, but some weapon/armor magic skills too.

For instance, in MM8 I allow Minotaurs GM Plate, and shield usage up to master (trolls too).

[hatsforclowns]

I believe that Gygax first imagined character class as a way to state at character creation a direction in which the player character had allocated his or her education through childhood and up to game start. As such, it is a useful starting point for a game.

Seldom is such a system implemented, rather class simply becomes your set-in-stone career path :( Attributes, traits, adaptations, acquired abilities and knowledge, "education through childhood," I still prefer to define those things in other ways than through simple classes. In that sense Morrowind was pretty good...it was more the levelling up that completely nullified all customisation.

And who is "Gygax?"

Therefore, all characters should have access to all skills in the world, depending on how they spend their practice time, as implemented in MM by the skill point system, and as best represented in MM6. (and maybe the earlier incarnations, to which I cannot speak since I have not played them.)

MM6 was indeed good.

[MMXAlamar]

lol @ CoX

[Spin]

MM6 for me.

I know there are people who will only call an RPG if there's choice customisation (there was a big thing for Dragon Age II having "hawke"). but i'm almost the opposite. Choice in MM6 was close to perfect i must say, picking necessary skills but still not punishing you a lot if you chose any bad skills, since you could learn them fairly early on. The freedom of skills was fantastic, much better defined with just the Expert and Master levels in addition to basic.

I never really liked the might and magic stat systems since they didn't mean a lot to me. To be honest the only stat system i love is the Baldur's Gate stat system, where all you stats are designed during creation and your HP/damage/accuracy is increased with level. It makes you really define your character in a number of ways at the start, and then items can later assist you in the game should you need higher stats.

[tolich]

CoX

Clouds of Xeen @ CoX+DoX=WoX

[Avonu]

Why there isn't MM9 in poll?

Also MM3 and MM4-5 have same system (much or less).

[Tress]

MM7 imo.
1-5 have random stat generation that really kill's game for me. I hated that in BG, iwd, and any other game. Removal of this aspect is one of rare good trends in crpg evolution.
mm6 had way too little difference between classes since all could master any skill they could learn, and only advantage of mage/knight over hybrids were slightly larger mana/health pools due to meditation/bb. Other than that my sorrcerer with his 2 dagger could do almost same if not bigger damage than knight in melee.
MM8 have very little character customization at all. If you play game optimally, customizable character matters only at start and then becomes weight for rest of team.
MM9 was very bleak so I wont comment much.
MM7 indeed overcompensated too much for premisive system of mm6, however it is vitally needed to divide classes. If mm7 would allow for example druid to get GM in all schools and similar changes to make hybrid classes more viable then I think it would be perfect.

Also MM3 and MM4-5 have same system (much or less).

They vitally changed role of druid/ranger from mm3 to xeen series. In mm3 he had unique spells , while in xeen he is hybrid like in mm6-7

[Macros the Black]

I don't understand why so many of you liked the way skills were done in MM6, imo it just feels like an incomplete system to me. It doesn't make sense that everyone can learn to become a master in the bow skill, then why do we have an archer in the party? And the Knight is completely useless because the only advantage he is a big hit point pool, but it doesn't matter since there's no way to get monsters to attack him instead of the casters. The skill/class system, improved combat (better turn-based system, stronger and fewer monsters), improved UI and the two storylines are all things I see as improvements over MM6.

MM6 is still my favorite, don't get me wrong, but not when it comes to the class/skill system...

MM7 indeed overcompensated too much for premisive system of mm6, however it is vitally needed to divide classes. If mm7 would allow for example druid to get GM in all schools and similar changes to make hybrid classes more viable then I think it would be perfect.

I agree, but the hybrid classes should still be weaker in magic throughout the game.
So for the druid, paladin and archer, they get their master magic skills at first promotion, and grandmaster magic skills at the last promotion.
The sorcerer and cleric can learn their grandmaster magic skills at first promotion, and light/dark grandmastery at second promotion.

[BMJedi]

And who is "Gygax?"

Gary Gygax is the author, creator, and later the executive producer of the Dungeons and Dragons fantasy RPG system in the 1970's and 1980's.

I and many other people credit him with being the first to take materials and ideas from Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, which had a resurgence of popularity in the 1960's, and turning those materials and ideas into a role-playing game where you could create your own hero and play out your own story.

His D&D gaming system influenced later popular culture in many areas and became iconic. The entire Might and Magic series reflects his influence very heavily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax

BTW - I didn't even think to put MM9 in the poll, because it's so horrible I don't even consider it part of the series. It was a debacle of game-making gone terribly wrong. I apologize if anybody actually likes it, but that's how I feel.

[hatsforclowns]

And who is "Gygax?"

Gary Gygax is the author, creator, and later the executive producer of the Dungeons and Dragons fantasy RPG system in the 1970's and 1980's.

I and many other people credit him with being the first to take materials and ideas from Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, which had a resurgence of popularity in the 1960's, and turning those materials and ideas into a role-playing game where you could create your own hero and play out your own story.

His D&D gaming system influenced later popular culture in many areas and became iconic. The entire Might and Magic series reflects his influence very heavily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax

BTW - I didn't even think to put MM9 in the poll, because it's so horrible I don't even consider it part of the series. It was a debacle of game-making gone terribly wrong. I apologize if anybody actually likes it, but that's how I feel.

Great...two things I despise rolled into one :(

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I wanna add that although I prefer MM6's system, I do think that it's way too permissive when it comes to weapons.

Like someone else pointed out it makes no sense to have an Archer class if everybody can master the bow so I only allow him and the Knight to master it. That way, the Knight does at least one thing that the Paladin can't.

And I disallow the Archer to learn the Mace skill (as in MM7-8) , and to dual wield an Axe with a Sword, or a Trident/Halberd with a Sword (sure I allow him to dual wield 2 swords or 2 daggers, but that's it.)

However, the many miscellanous skills restrictions of MM7/8 are just a pain in the ass. ESPECIALLY Bodybuilding and Meditation - those skills are ALREADY innately balanced by their mechanics!!!!
Only Armsmaster's restrictions makes sense but that's more of a Weapon skill than a Misc. skill, really.

And MM8 Vampire should be allowed to Learn bodybuilding & meditation, and Expert: Armsmaster, Bow.
And Trolls and Minotaurs are allowed to Master Shield, damnit. And Minotaurs can GM Plate.

[hatsforclowns]

I wanna add that although I prefer MM6's system, I do think that it's way too permissive when it comes to weapons.

Like someone else pointed out it makes no sense to have an Archer class if everybody can master the bow so I only allow him and the Knight to master it. That way, the Knight does at least one thing that the Paladin can't.

And I disallow the Archer to learn the Mace skill (as in MM7-8) , and to dual wield an Axe with a Sword, or a Trident/Halberd with a Sword (sure I allow him to dual wield 2 swords or 2 daggers, but that's it.)

However, the many miscellanous skills restrictions of MM7/8 are just a pain in the ass. ESPECIALLY Bodybuilding and Meditation - those skills are ALREADY innately balanced by their mechanics!!!!
Only Armsmaster's restrictions makes sense but that's more of a Weapon skill than a Misc. skill, really.

And MM8 Vampire should be allowed to Learn bodybuilding & meditation, and Expert: Armsmaster, Bow.
And Trolls and Minotaurs are allowed to Master Shield, dammit. And Minotaurs can GM Plate. :)

Wasn't the Minotaur in MM8 pretty much useless, due to a bug where the bonuses to the Axe skill don't work?

[BMJedi]

I wanna add that although I prefer MM6's system, I do think that it's way too permissive when it comes to weapons.

Like someone else pointed out it makes no sense to have an Archer class if everybody can master the bow so I only allow him and the Knight to master it. That way, the Knight does at least one thing that the Paladin can't.

And I disallow the Archer to learn the Mace skill (as in MM7-8) , and to dual wield an Axe with a Sword, or a Trident/Halberd with a Sword (sure I allow him to dual wield 2 swords or 2 daggers, but that's it.)

However, the many miscellanous skills restrictions of MM7/8 are just a pain in the ass. ESPECIALLY Bodybuilding and Meditation - those skills are ALREADY innately balanced by their mechanics!!!!
Only Armsmaster's restrictions makes sense but that's more of a Weapon skill than a Misc. skill, really.

And MM8 Vampire should be allowed to Learn bodybuilding & meditation, and Expert: Armsmaster, Bow.
And Trolls and Minotaurs are allowed to Master Shield, dammit. And Minotaurs can GM Plate.

Undead, your post presents a great example of why the player needs to be allowed to make these decisions. Any group of RPG players is never going to be able to agree on exactly which restrictions make sense and which don't. That's why, for an RPG game that is marketed for a profit, the more choice the player has to customize characters, the better.

There need only be a limitation to how much the character can develop at once. I believe that the skill point system of MM6, without the arbitrary class limitations, comes the closest to being a perfect gaming and character development system.

The business with the Archer class and bow is in fact a problem; however, only the archer and the knight can start with it, the archer gets appropriate starting stats, and the knight has to spend a free proficiency slot to get it. Then everybody else has to pay for it.

Also, one presumes that your archer is concentrating on developing the bow skill while the casters are spending all their points on magic. There is no reason that I see why, late in the game, casters couldn't pick up some marksmanship, and archers couldn't learn some magic.

Also, archery in general in MM is underpowered compared to melee weapon skill.

Probably, some restrictions on armor wearing for arcane casters would also make some sense - as in, magic in most implementations of it is hampered by wearing of heavy metal.

(One of the most recent cultural trope-makers of images and ideas of magic, the Star Wars movies, support that classical trope in that the jedi can only wear robes, with very light armor pieces (as in the Clones animated series), if any.)

Thus my opinion is that if you really want to make a good, commercially successful RPG, leave as much as possible up to the player. And in the MM series, MM6 does it the best.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I wanna add that although I prefer MM6's system, I do think that it's way too permissive when it comes to weapons.

Like someone else pointed out it makes no sense to have an Archer class if everybody can master the bow so I only allow him and the Knight to master it. That way, the Knight does at least one thing that the Paladin can't.

And I disallow the Archer to learn the Mace skill (as in MM7-8) , and to dual wield an Axe with a Sword, or a Trident/Halberd with a Sword (sure I allow him to dual wield 2 swords or 2 daggers, but that's it.)

However, the many miscellanous skills restrictions of MM7/8 are just a pain in the ass. ESPECIALLY Bodybuilding and Meditation - those skills are ALREADY innately balanced by their mechanics!!!!
Only Armsmaster's restrictions makes sense but that's more of a Weapon skill than a Misc. skill, really.

And MM8 Vampire should be allowed to Learn bodybuilding & meditation, and Expert: Armsmaster, Bow.
And Trolls and Minotaurs are allowed to Master Shield, dammit. And Minotaurs can GM Plate.

Wasn't the Minotaur in MM8 pretty much useless, due to a bug where the bonuses to the Axe skill don't work?

Fixed by a latest patch by Grayface. Works fine now.
Not sure if he uploaded it on his site. If not, there is always the option of using a Spear (Minotaurs can master it, and their starting recovery time is 80, Axe needs 20 levels to reach that)

[tolich]

Not sure if he uploaded it on his site. If not, there is always the option of using a Spear (Minotaurs can master it, and their starting recovery time is 80, Axe needs 20 levels to reach that)

Onehanded Axe deals 4-8 damage, twohanded Axe does 3-21.
Spear deals 1-9 (2-18 if used twohanded), Trident 2-12 (3-18 twohanded), Halberd 3-18 (4-24 twohanded).
It's shame that Axe with long pole acts faster than just twohanded Axe, and Axe skill isn't used with Halberds.

[GreatEmerald]

In my opinion it's MM7. In MM6, you had too much freedom, and that makes things like knights and sorcerers pretty much obsolete - add that to the limited choice of classes and the limited choices of usable portraits and you have yourself a very limited game, even if you can spend your points anywhere.

The MM7 system makes a lot more sense, although I agree that it is rather inconvenient. You usually spend the most time around the first promotion, and it all fells very limited there. But it's still a good way to motivate you to advance the plot.

MM8 system is pretty much non-existent, given that you get new party members all the time. This is the only game where I actually would like to use a save game editor so I could choose where to spend the points. And give my characters actual names.

[hatsforclowns]

MM8 system is pretty much non-existent, given that you get new party members all the time. This is the only game where I actually would like to use a save game editor so I could choose where to spend the points. And give my characters actual names.

I loved the hirable heroes and Adventurer's Inn in MM8! :) I think it should have been more randomised though, so when playing you never know what heroes join your party.