Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

[XEL II]

Not everyone in the universe call Kreegans demons. Everyone who knows their true nature, like Escaton and Melian, don't. Only people like post-Silence Enrothian colonists call them devils and demons.

No, not all Inferno creatures are called Kreegans. HoMM II makes it clear that Kreegan are represented in 7th level Inferno unit. Pit lords/fiends and ice demons are pet creatures used by Kreegans for war, horned demons are created by pit lords. Those are mere offshots of the Kreegan race. Imps, gogs, cerberi, efreeti are totally different races allied with and serving the Kreegan.

It's not me or Corlagon who live in denial, you are with your stubborn claims that Kreegans in HoMM are different from Kreegans in MM. You've grinded that into your head for some strange reason and refuse to realize that they are agenerally the same. Game models of Kreegan in MM VI-VII and HoMM are very similar, and there were no changes whatsoever to their goals. They wanted to conquer Enroth just like many other worlds. And devastating the planet that is being conquered is part of the conquest.

New Sorpigal's inhabitants weren't from VARN 4. It's just the similar names of two towns. In the whole vast universe that's not so unbelievable coincidence.

[XEL II]

So yes I am very thankful for these 'inbred retards' and their 'death threats' for dissuading 3DO from ruining Might and Magic III.

And that's stupid. Because it was those fuсktards who ruined the development in the end, but even more supid because you are defending those pieces of trash who threaten other people's lives for such a ridiculous reason.

[Corlagon]

If the Kreegans are so ruthless in eliminating anyone that stands in the way of their biological purpose then why would they ever elevate to kingship anyone who proposed even in jest to carry out such a plan?

Because they aren't robots and happen to have strategical and emotional purposes as well. They are fighting a war with the Ancients. Enroth is an Ancient colony. Therefore, not so astonishing that they attempt to set fire to Enroth after their leader gets murdered by the colonists.

[ThunderTitan]

Names are intricately bound up with language. When a name is transliterated from one language to another (as often happens) it is usually changed/corrupted in some manner. For instance Karl in English and German becomes Carlos in Spanish.

Nope, most of those are simply names based on common roots from a 3rd language that got changed by time... and by illiteracy.

That's why Charles Darwin is known as Charles in Germany and not Karl...

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Not everyone in the universe call Kreegans demons. Everyone who knows their true nature, like Escaton and Melian, don't. Only people like post-Silence Enrothian colonists call them devils and demons.

Melian and Escaton are both sentiant computers created by the Ancients. Do the Ancients actually speak the same language as the settlers anyway?

Doesn't one of them (Melian/Oracle) actually say that they resemble the demons of old? And resemblance strongly indicates a common origin does it not(unless your a creationist)?

Being computers after-all they are following a speaking programme. Because of this they will choose words to use according to a mechanical formula,they will always use the word that 'best fits' rather than use words synonomously like people do.

The inhabitants of Enroth use the terms Kreegan, Demon and Devil synonomously. A computer will use a single word the word which is most precise.

No, not all Inferno creatures are called Kreegans. HoMM II makes it clear that Kreegan are represented in 7th level Inferno unit. Pit lords/fiends and ice demons are pet creatures used by Kreegans for war, horned demons are created by pit lords. Those are mere offshots of the Kreegan race. Imps, gogs, cerberi, efreeti are totally different races allied with and serving the Kreegan.

Heroes II has no Kreegans in it so you must mean Heroes III.

Unless you have any sources from Heroes III that you haven't told me about the Kreegans only being the 7th Level Inferno unit- what you are saying is only a theory. And a contradictory one given that earlier you were arguing that the Kreegans weren't devils.

Yes the Kreegans(as in the aliens) have all these other races allied with them. But what exactly is the agenda of these races? Why are they allied with the Kreegans at all?

It's not me or Corlagon who live in denial, you are with your stubborn claims that Kreegans in HoMM are different from Kreegans in MM. You've grinded that into your head for some strange reason and refuse to realize that they are agenerally the same. Game models of Kreegan in MM VI-VII and HoMM are very similar, and there were no changes whatsoever to their goals. They wanted to conquer Enroth just like many other worlds. And devastating the planet that is being conquered is part of the conquest.

Well they aren't just claims. The Kreegans in Might and Magic are immune to fire (and much else besides). The Kreegans in Heroes III (considering the devils to be the only Kreegans) are not immune to fire or even resistant. There we have a very clear difference.

And what about game-models, there are no creatures in Heroes III called Kreegans. The term Kreegan is only used to refer to the entire Inferno faction.

And that's stupid. Because it was those fuсktards who ruined the development in the end, but even more supid because you are defending those pieces of trash who threaten other people's lives for such a ridiculous reason.

You really weren't exaggerating about the death-threats?

But the ends do justify the means and the ends of saving Heroes III from 'infection' by a shoddy sci-fi faction is certainly worth the means.

Because they aren't robots and happen to have strategical and emotional purposes as well. They are fighting a war with the Ancients. Enroth is an Ancient colony. Therefore, not so astonishing that they attempt to set fire to Enroth after their leader gets murdered by the colonists.

But they are nomads looking to extract resources locust-like from each planet before moving on to the next planet. To destroy the planet and render it uninhabitable completely contradicts their entire agenda for being there at all.

They burn the planet, they starve to death (if the fire don't kill them). But if they perish trying to conquer the planet, then they might still win and if they lose other Kreegans will be able to arrive in the future and succeed where they failed. Or they could make a truce with the locals and try again in the future when they have multiplied and increase in numbers.

Enroth is not an Ancient colony in any sense that matters. No Ancients actually live there. The inhabitants of said world are not space-faring and thus pose no threat to the Kreegan empire, so the destruction of Enroth is a complete loss to them.

And the Kreegans make the Armageddon's Blade before they are utterly defeated not after it. They still have considerable militery might left.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Not everyone in the universe call Kreegans demons. Everyone who knows their true nature, like Escaton and Melian, don't. Only people like post-Silence Enrothian colonists call them devils and demons.

Melian and Escaton are both sentiant computers created by the Ancients. Do the Ancients actually speak the same language as the settlers anyway?

Doesn't one of them (Melian/Oracle) actually say that they resemble the demons of old? And resemblance strongly indicates a common origin does it not(unless your a creationist)?

Being computers after-all they are following a speaking programme. Because of this they will choose words to use according to a mechanical formula,they will always use the word that 'best fits' rather than use words synonomously like people do.

The inhabitants of Enroth use the terms Kreegan, Demon and Devil synonomously. A computer will use a single word the word which is most precise.

No, not all Inferno creatures are called Kreegans. HoMM II makes it clear that Kreegan are represented in 7th level Inferno unit. Pit lords/fiends and ice demons are pet creatures used by Kreegans for war, horned demons are created by pit lords. Those are mere offshots of the Kreegan race. Imps, gogs, cerberi, efreeti are totally different races allied with and serving the Kreegan.

Heroes II has no Kreegans in it so you must mean Heroes III.

Unless you have any sources from Heroes III that you haven't told me about the Kreegans only being the 7th Level Inferno unit- what you are saying is only a theory. And a contradictory one given that earlier you were arguing that the Kreegans weren't devils.

Yes the Kreegans(as in the aliens) have all these other races allied with them. But what exactly is the agenda of these races? Why are they allied with the Kreegans at all?

It's not me or Corlagon who live in denial, you are with your stubborn claims that Kreegans in HoMM are different from Kreegans in MM. You've grinded that into your head for some strange reason and refuse to realize that they are agenerally the same. Game models of Kreegan in MM VI-VII and HoMM are very similar, and there were no changes whatsoever to their goals. They wanted to conquer Enroth just like many other worlds. And devastating the planet that is being conquered is part of the conquest.

Well they aren't just claims. The Kreegans in Might and Magic are immune to fire (and much else besides). The Kreegans in Heroes III (considering the devils to be the only Kreegans) are not immune to fire or even resistant. There we have a very clear difference.

And what about game-models, there are no creatures in Heroes III called Kreegans. The term Kreegan is only used to refer to the entire Inferno faction.

And that's stupid. Because it was those fuсktards who ruined the development in the end, but even more supid because you are defending those pieces of trash who threaten other people's lives for such a ridiculous reason.

You really weren't exaggerating about the death-threats?

But the ends do justify the means and the ends of saving Heroes III from 'infection' by a shoddy sci-fi faction is certainly worth the means.

Because they aren't robots and happen to have strategical and emotional purposes as well. They are fighting a war with the Ancients. Enroth is an Ancient colony. Therefore, not so astonishing that they attempt to set fire to Enroth after their leader gets murdered by the colonists.

But they are nomads looking to extract resources locust-like from each planet before moving on to the next planet. To destroy the planet and render it uninhabitable completely contradicts their entire agenda for being there at all.

They burn the planet, they starve to death (if the fire don't kill them). But if they perish trying to conquer the planet, then they might still win and if they lose other Kreegans will be able to arrive in the future and succeed where they failed. Or they could make a truce with the locals and try again in the future when they have multiplied and increase in numbers.

Enroth is not an Ancient colony in any sense that matters. No Ancients actually live there. The inhabitants of said world are not space-faring and thus pose no threat to the Kreegan empire, so the destruction of Enroth is a complete loss to them.

And the Kreegans make the Armageddon's Blade before they are utterly defeated not after it. They still have considerable militery might left.

[ThunderTitan]

Doesn't one of them (Melian/Oracle) actually say that they resemble the demons of old? And resemblance strongly indicates a common origin does it not(unless your a creationist)?

Actually it doesn't, just ask the platypus (who's traits made some thing it was a hoax)...

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Actually it doesn't, just ask the platypus (who's traits made some thing it was a hoax)...

It does unless you have any better contenders. And it is far more likely in my book that birds evolved from egg-laying proto-mammels like the platypus rather than from reptiles because birds are far more similar to egg-laying mammals than they are to reptiles.

That similarity=relationship is the principle behind linguistics and evolution both. If this is not at least generally the case that creationism in both fields becomes order of the day.

[ThunderTitan]

That similarity=relationship is the principle behind linguistics and evolution both.

Right, and the Ainu people of Japan are Thracians because some guy found some words that sounded alike... except they don't look european at all, the guy just never saw one...

And it is far more likely in my book that birds evolved from egg-laying proto-mammels like the platypus rather than from reptiles because birds are far more similar to egg-laying mammals than they are to reptiles.

That hilarious because no scientist would even consider that, their only debate is what reptile they evolved from... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birds#Alte ... troversies

Feathers are nothing like fur btw.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Right, and the Ainu people of Japan are Thracians because some guy found some words that sounded alike... except they don't look european at all, the guy just never saw one...

It is obviously the overall level of similarity that matters not if they are the same in one respect.

The only evidence we have for evolution depends upon us accepting that creatures that are similar are related. If it is not the case that extremely similar creatures are related then there is no evidence at all that anything ever evolved from anything at all and that the creationists aren't completely correct.
Nothing now prevents all the creatures that have ever existed from being created seperately as they are. Because similarity does not indicate relationship after-all.

That hilarious because no scientist would even consider that, their only debate is what reptile they evolved from... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birds#Alte ... troversies

Feathers are nothing like fur btw.

I don't give a damn what the scientists think. They've been claiming that birds evolved from reptiles since Huxley (I think) in the 19th Century who made the decision probably on the grounds that birds have scaly reptilian-like feet and lay eggs. They didn't know about the platypus as well at that time.

Feathers are a lot more like hair than they are like scales (but not a lot like either). Scales are simple structures, they are bumps in the outer layers of skin and are shed along with the skin.
Feathers grow from follicles and are shed seperately from the skin like hairs, they are also made of a similar substance to which hair is made of. Birds also have hair (down) at the same time as having feathers.

The big give-away is that birds are warm-blooded as are mammels, while reptiles are universally cold-blooded. So taking the existance of egg-laying mammals the most plausible origin for birds is them evolving from the proto-mammals (not actual mammals because they hadn't yet evolved to lactate).
Scales are no big deal and bird scales aren't shed in the same way as reptiles shed their skin anyway.

[ThunderTitan]

You know dinosaurs are now considered warm-blooded and full of feathers, right?!

And the fathers actually have fossil evidence backing them up, right?


And there's also this little thing called DNA, which is way more accurate then something looking similar...

[Corlagon]

I think the crazy tangents have now gone way too far in here - just an opinion.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

You know dinosaurs are now considered warm-blooded and full of feathers, right?!

And the fathers actually have fossil evidence backing them up, right?


And there's also this little thing called DNA, which is way more accurate then something looking similar...

Mostly because they have to be warm blooded and have feathers so that birds can evolve from them as the 'scientists' have claimed for 250 years.

The feathers don't have any strong fossil evidence backing them up. One of them was a fake, the second was a flightless bird like an ostrich and the third's 'feathers' were the result of decaying collagen fibres similar to those in modern crocodiles. They see what they want to see (confirmation bias).

But we're getting off-topic. What I was trying to establish is that if there is a marked similarity between two things (in whatever exact sense) then it is indeed reasonable to derive that there is a relationship between them. That's how scientists try and figure out what is related to what in linguistics and biology.

Applying the same principle to the question of the nature of the Kreegans then, if the Kreegans resemble the 'demons of old' whatever they are then is it is not reasonable to conclude that there is a familial relationship of sorts between the two.

We know that the 'demons' depend upon some sort of energy from the 'Fiery Realm' and we know that said realm *is* what happened to a planet when it fell under the dominion of the Kreegans.

It seems therefore that the Kreegan creatures ultimately serve the 'other' demons purposes, the ultimate consequence of their domination is to create a source of energy for these demons. They act as a sort of vanguard creature for the others.

[ThunderTitan]

No, if there's a similarity between 2 things the chances for them to be related on a purely statistical basis are higher then if there isn't, but like Occam's Razor it's not proof of it, but simply a way to reduce effort when investigating a hypothesis...

If you want to actually prove a link you have to come up with proof beyond "they kinda look alike"... unless you think Jesus's face on a piece of toast meant the toast must be another incarnation of God on earth.

Or Sarah Jessica Parker is related to a horse...

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

No, if there's a similarity between 2 things the chances for them to be related on a purely statistical basis are higher then if there isn't, but like Occam's Razor it's not proof of it, but simply a way to reduce effort when investigating a hypothesis...

If you want to actually prove a link you have to come up with proof beyond "they kinda look alike"... unless you think Jesus's face on a piece of toast meant the toast must be another incarnation of God on earth.

Or Sarah Jessica Parker is related to a horse...

I'm afraid that resemblances are usually the only evidence that anyone in biology or linguistics *has* of a relationship. So resemblances are clearly considered evidence in themselves.

Including stuff like DNA resemblances in that respect.

You are right in the sense that are single resemblance is not enough to establish a connection- but Melian says that the Kreegans resemble the demons of old in general.

And give Melian is a computer "he" will be working on the basis of overall resemblances, not resemblance in a specific sense. Otherwise he'd be saying that Kreegans resemble humans because they are humanoid.

[ThunderTitan]

And give Melian is a computer "he" will be working on the basis of overall resemblances, not resemblance in a specific sense. Otherwise he'd be saying that Kreegans resemble humans because they are humanoid.

Except that he could say that easily and not be wrong one bit...

And that would in no way to proof that the Kreegans are related to humans... but you're arguing that it would...

Including stuff like DNA resemblances in that respect.

Now you're just twisting words to make it seem your argument is more then skin deep...

Resembling is too general to imply it means having similar building blocks, ike DNA...

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Except that he could say that easily and not be wrong one bit...

And that would in no way to proof that the Kreegans are related to humans... but you're arguing that it would...

The context in which I am making the argument is in response to the use of the duck-billed platypus to prove that because the duck-billed platypus has webbed feet and a bill which resembles those of a duck then the fact that they not closely related proves that I am wrong.

My point is that Melian could refer to them resembling a whole raft of humanoid creatures including humans, elves, dwarves, orcs etc. So that fact that he refers to the 'demons of old' means that they are the creatures that bear the greatest resemblance.

Now you're just twisting words to make it seem your argument is more then skin deep...

Resembling is too general to imply it means having similar building blocks, ike DNA...

Yes because that is merely one specific grounds of resemblance; that they are basically made of the 'same stuff'. DNA is just a key part of the cellular system that makes proteins and proteins are what creatures are largely made of (apart from water). It is part of a creatures biological system no less than their blood or their lungs or their kidneys.

There is nothing skin deep about my argument. We are talking here about general resemblances not specific resemblances. This is because Melian is a computer and thus essentially cannot work on specific resemblance because a computer calculates (it does not arbiterily decide) the outcome on the basis of the variables it has been programmed to take into account. Each variable will perhaps have a numerical value indicating it's relative importance but that's about it.

It so happens that according to the basic evidential criteria used by sciences like biology and linguistics overall resemblances indicate familial relationships; it means that they were at one point the same thing. To deny without direct evidence the validity of the statements that overall resemblances indicate familial relationship is to pretty much destroy those disciplines.

Yet given we are not exactly dealing with pure darwinian evolution in the Might and Magic universe the relationship may be conceptual; they may all have have originated in a single demon/kreegan idea rather than evolving from a single creature. That is they share the same creator following the same creative plan.

Since there is a universal struggle between the Ancients and the Creators; the latter of whom made the kreegans, where do the demons of Heroes V fit in with the demons of Heroes III? They bear an great similarity to eachother if not a complete one, yet these demons are 'extra-planar' creatures; they do not come from space and aren't kreegans.

Considering that the kreegans were created for a reason by extra-planar creatures outside of the Ancients domain (material reality); then there is no reason to suppose the good of the kreegans is neccesarily the real purpose of the Kreegans. Once the Kreegan locusts have made the universe into a wasteland and eliminated all the life-forms therein; then what?

We know from Heroes IV that the demons draw their power from the 'Fiery Realm' and when Gauldoth visits the 'Fiery Realm' we are told it is a planet which has fallen under the domination of the Kreegans. So then the Kreegans do serve a purpose, they expand the 'Fiery Realm' to yet another world. The demons (including the kreegans themselves) need the energy from the 'Fiery Realm'.

And the beings that rule the original extra-planar Fiery Realm created both the kreegans and the other demons (their allies), the former to destroy any living opposition and the latter to carry out the process of 'terraforming' the planet into an extension of their realm. Armageddon's Blade is what the Kreegans concieved of as a substitute for the destruction of the last kreegan in Might and Magic VII.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Except that he could say that easily and not be wrong one bit...

And that would in no way to proof that the Kreegans are related to humans... but you're arguing that it would...

The context in which I am making the argument is in response to the use of the duck-billed platypus to prove that because the duck-billed platypus has webbed feet and a bill which resembles those of a duck then the fact that they not closely related proves that I am wrong.

My point is that Melian could refer to them resembling a whole raft of humanoid creatures including humans, elves, dwarves, orcs etc. So that fact that he refers to the 'demons of old' means that they are the creatures that bear the greatest resemblance.

Now you're just twisting words to make it seem your argument is more then skin deep...

Resembling is too general to imply it means having similar building blocks, ike DNA...

Yes because that is merely one specific grounds of resemblance; that they are basically made of the 'same stuff'. DNA is just a key part of the cellular system that makes proteins and proteins are what creatures are largely made of (apart from water). It is part of a creatures biological system no less than their blood or their lungs or their kidneys.

There is nothing skin deep about my argument. We are talking here about general resemblances not specific resemblances. This is because Melian is a computer and thus essentially cannot work on specific resemblance because a computer calculates (it does not arbiterily decide) the outcome on the basis of the variables it has been programmed to take into account. Each variable will perhaps have a numerical value indicating it's relative importance but that's about it.

It so happens that according to the basic evidential criteria used by sciences like biology and linguistics overall resemblances indicate familial relationships; it means that they were at one point the same thing. To deny without direct evidence the validity of the statements that overall resemblances indicate familial relationship is to pretty much destroy those disciplines.

Yet given we are not exactly dealing with pure darwinian evolution in the Might and Magic universe the relationship may be conceptual; they may all have have originated in a single demon/kreegan idea rather than evolving from a single creature. That is they share the same creator following the same creative plan.

Since there is a universal struggle between the Ancients and the Creators; the latter of whom made the kreegans, where do the demons of Heroes V fit in with the demons of Heroes III? They bear an great similarity to eachother if not a complete one, yet these demons are 'extra-planar' creatures; they do not come from space and aren't kreegans.

Considering that the kreegans were created for a reason by extra-planar creatures outside of the Ancients domain (material reality); then there is no reason to suppose the good of the kreegans is neccesarily the real purpose of the Kreegans. Once the Kreegan locusts have made the universe into a wasteland and eliminated all the life-forms therein; then what?

We know from Heroes IV that the demons draw their power from the 'Fiery Realm' and when Gauldoth visits the 'Fiery Realm' we are told it is a planet which has fallen under the domination of the Kreegans. So then the Kreegans do serve a purpose, they expand the 'Fiery Realm' to yet another world. The demons (including the kreegans themselves) need the energy from the 'Fiery Realm'.

And the beings that rule the original extra-planar Fiery Realm created both the kreegans and the other demons (their allies), the former to destroy any living opposition and the latter to carry out the process of 'terraforming' the planet into an extension of their realm. Armageddon's Blade is what the Kreegans concieved of as a substitute for the destruction of the last kreegan in Might and Magic VII.

[ThunderTitan]

My point is that Melian could refer to them resembling a whole raft of humanoid creatures including humans, elves, dwarves, orcs etc. So that fact that he refers to the 'demons of old' means that they are the creatures that bear the greatest resemblance.

Sure, i mean he couldn't have been making a point about kreegans being destructive or trying to instil in the heroes how much of a threat they are by invoking something familiar etc...

Because that's what you thought of 1st that must be it...

Jeez you're getting boring... at least try to come up with something new...

[Pol]

Sigh, I can't read that. Please, at least pretend normal on topic discussion. Either thread closing danger is imminent.