Pros & Cons of WoG

[ByteBandit]

I thought I would start this topic to see what everyone likes and dislikes about WoG.

I like the Commanders, for one, and the Stack Experience.
I'll have to think what I dislike about it though........

[Fnord]

I like ERM.

I dislike ERM errors.

[Nerissa]

I dislike the irritating terrain puzzle in one of the WoG campaigns.

[Pol]

I dislike the irritating terrain puzzle in one of the WoG campaigns.

I too, I too!! And it's his fault

I'm using this occasion to ask if it wouldn't be now nice time to release some new scripts/bugfixes in WoG, here was some progress from the last year. Nothing final but some little important improvements had been done...

[ByteBandit]

I beleive we are waiting for the new woG website to become functional before it's released.

[Ya5MieL]

havent played in a while now but ill try to recall as much as i can.
(this is for v3.58f)

Creatures:
Like werevolves, nightmares, ghosts and even hellsteeds are ok
DONT LIKE: every other creatures (messengers,lv8 and others i cant remember)

also, for pros:
stack experience: very good "hard-coded" option
various skill balances,

cons:
bugs, campaigns (should have instead put few of the best fan made campaigns and just add erm touch to them, this way they are not interesting at all)
skill balances are good, but there are so many of them and many of them are cumulative so one can easily get lost on what which script does (for example, TWO scripts (or even more) balance out creatures, but they dont take into account that other one exists, thats should be made into one simple script)
level 8.... i just hate it... if something cant be made good better not make it at all... that time could have been spent on some quality feature instead (i realise lv8 units were there in first version of wog when quality was much worse than it is today).
also, they make low level units look even more useless then they were before. there is no need to add 8th level to factions).
creature experience (while good itself) makes damaginfg spells even weaker than they were before (since units gan hp with levels and spell damage doesnt increase)

commanders... still not sure about it, they can sometimes make game unbalanced (especialy at start when they can be too big advantage)

thats all i could remember for now, ill edit post if i recall anything else.

And just to make things clear, i LOVE wog, i just tend to describe things more negatively than they realy are.

[Pol]

commanders...

Commanders are way nice but quite unbalanced as hell.

I beleive we are waiting for the new woG website to become functional before it's released.

Ah. Ah. Ah. - Though is not necessary

[Fnord]

havent played in a while now but ill try to recall as much as i can.
(this is for v3.58f)

Creatures:
Like werevolves, nightmares, ghosts and even hellsteeds are ok
DONT LIKE: every other creatures (messengers,lv8 and others i cant remember)

How about Sorceresses?

also, for pros:
stack experience: very good "hard-coded" option

Yes, and you can customize the bonus file to your liking too.

various skill balances,

cons:
bugs, campaigns (should have instead put few of the best fan made campaigns and just add erm touch to them, this way they are not interesting at all)

I think we'll probably put the THUNK campaign into 3.59 (at least the 4 maps of it that are completed already). I don't know about other fan-made campaigns. Personally, I think it's best if all WoG campaigns have custom scripting. Perhaps some of the existing ones will be updated or replaced with others in the future but we'll see.

skill balances are good, but there are so many of them and many of them are cumulative so one can easily get lost on what which script does

Perhaps but it's hard to get anyone to agree on what's best so ... we let the player decide. It may take some time to figure it out but I think it's for the best in the end.

(for example, TWO scripts (or even more) balance out creatures, but they dont take into account that other one exists, thats should be made into one simple script)

Actually, I think the Rebalanced Creatures script does take into account the other scripts unless that was only added the beta script update.

The problem with "one simple script" is we have different people who wrote them because they each have different ideas of what's "balanced" or should be used. As before, it's impossible to reach a good consensus in most of these cases so much easier to offer several people's ideas and let the players decide.

level 8.... i just hate it... if something cant be made good better not make it at all... that time could have been spent on some quality feature instead (i realise lv8 units were there in first version of wog when quality was much worse than it is today).
also, they make low level units look even more useless then they were before. there is no need to add 8th level to factions).

As you say, it was in the first version and it was one of the early features. I (and many others) do like the level 8 creatures even if graphically they're boring (recoloured L7) and admittedly they're mostly overpowered but they can still be quite fun at times. And in custom maps they can make good enemies. Since all existing creatures are used in various custom maps, I don't think we'll be officially replacing any, although graphics may be updated.

creature experience (while good itself) makes damaginfg spells even weaker than they were before (since units gan hp with levels and spell damage doesnt increase)

I think spell balancing may be addressed with some 3.59 options.

commanders... still not sure about it, they can sometimes make game unbalanced (especialy at start when they can be too big advantage)

It makes the game easier against Neutrals at the start, no doubt about that. Later, I think it's reasonably balanced against the other players.

thats all i could remember for now, ill edit post if i recall anything else.

And just to make things clear, i LOVE wog, i just tend to describe things more negatively than they realy are.

The really great thing about WoG it's so customizable that you can pretty well build the game you want by just choosing the options you want and/or editing the stack experience bonuses and even doing your own custom scripting.

[Beholder]

I generally like everything but especially stack experience and the fact that you can change many things using either some text files or by writing ERM scripts.
I dislike the fact that sometimes you can`t finish a script without some new receivers being added. Also I think that there are too many options and it takes a few days/weeks to look through all of them and decide which ones to use.
I don`t like messengers and emissaries as well But i like dracoliches very much

[mr.hackcrag]

I can't even begin to address all the things in WoG, but here are a few off the top of my head.

I like stack experience, but sometimes it influences combat too much. Generally good though.

I like commanders, but they are too strong sometimes. Also don't like generic appearance of them, but most are better than the copies of level 8, emissaries, etc. with the sole exception of the succubus, which is the best new creature added to WoG in terms of appearance because it's unique.

I like Sorceress, Hell Steeds/Nightmares, Werewolf, and any other unique creature I forgot to mention. (But I think that's all of them.)

Some skills are good for balance, others are way too powerful. I think most people already know which ones, so there's no need to list them.

Mithril is a neat idea.

Town demolishing is also neat, but I've never done it yet.

I don't like the artifacts because they are all too overpowered and takes away emphasis from your army. This includes all the powerful artifacts that 3do put in the game. I rememeber that H2 had some artifacts that gave you many positive and negative bonuses at the same time. This idea would do wonders in this game. (The titans gladius and etc. don't count, because the bonus far outweighs the negative.) Artifacts should play less a role in hero's stat development. The best artifacts should be limited to giving +4 of a stat in my opinion, but I'm sure 99% of you out there disagree.

Don't like level 8 creatures and all similar overpowered neutrals, including the ones 3do put in like azure dragons. Although I might not have such a problem with it if they made the creatures unique instead of generic with different colors. How many dragons do you really need in game? It's worse than H5 in this respect. Also don't like emissaries and all the creatures that are just copies of other creatures with better stats/abilities. If any creatures are going to be added, they should be unique. There are still tons of mythological animals that are not in homm3. I imagine the real difficulty is in getting artwork to be put in the game.

Don't like arrow towers that deal 400+ damage per shot. Castle sieges should be the hardest battles, but other ways need to be found to make it more difficult than simply arrow towers dealing tons of damage.

Don't like how thunderbirds lighting bolt now deals insane damage with no option to revert back to original damage. I think it's frequency of occuring is much higher too, but I'm not sure. I've mentioned this in my other thread in case any has seen it.

Don't like how so many adventure buildings further improve primary stats and secondary skills. It takes away from leveling up your hero to make him strong. Last map I played, I was on level 4, and my hero already had 8, 6, 7, 5 primary stats including artifacts.

Basically, I don't like all the things that make you so overpowered that it diminishes the usefulness of all other units in the game and the fun factor itself. It's no fun playing when your hero has 25+ of every stat and you don't even have to put in any effort to win a battle because your hero/commander is so dominant, or you have so many dracoliches. I can't tell you how many times I've simply stopped playing a map because of this. It's no fun any more when you've spent the whole time developing your castle and armies, only to end up using the same few powerful creatures and your ridiculously powerful hero to town portal/dimensional door around the map, wiping out your opponents. It's boring as hell and puts too much emphasis on getting good artifacts, buffing your hero's stats, etc. Every map I play has tons of these high level artifacts, or dragon utopias, or libraries of enlightment, or marletto towers/star axis/etc. In my opinion, all of these things should be extremely scarce and well guarded in the map. Even worse are the custom maps where mapmakers put things like tomes of earth, or armageddon's blade right next to your doorstep unguarded! What the hell are some people thinking? There's no better way to make me hate heroes than the things I've mentioned in this paragraph. I know a lot of it is sort of unrelated to WoG, but I had to get that off my chest. The challenge level would be so much better if these changes were implemented in every map. Most people seem to want everything to be stronger, but I feel the opposite. It would be much more strategic to tone many things down, rather than to simply overpower everything.

I know there is a lot more I can't think of now. I'll keep adding things as they come to me.

EDIT: Ah, here is another thing. I don't like how the eagle eye skill doesn't go along with my spell trait file. Spells like armageddon and Town Portal have been raised to level 5 , but the eagle eye skill still learns them as if they were level 4.

[Pol]

I like Gorylyches, Werewolves are funny too. Here are some new objects, Cave with Hermit teacher and some heap of skulls with undead king and his army behind.

To the stack experience I ought to point that is better to set it manually, by choosing the custom and putting values in the map loading phase.

Generally any WoG options can be turned off and most of them can be customized/tweaked.

You see. The process of wogifycation is quite easy

PS Here is lots of very useful enhancements, personally I'm using> Commanders, leave artifact or units, some enhanced skills like sorcerery, but never first aid or warfare. Just turn on (only) what you like. Too much fruits can seriously broke the dish. Passing your hero or town to your ally is also quite nice. Most problematic part is, though, that AI cannot use such enhancements, town rebuilding/destroying include - so that's why I not overuse them either.

[djtc]

I love the grow 4% feature...

It completely blows away gameplay and most tactis, but you wanna have fun on XL maps with out-of-mind armies, there you go!

(Have to turn Battle Extender on at least, otherwise maps get ridiculously easy. And also set CPU on more thant "normal" as it doesn't focuses on this feature and gets beaten easy)

[mr.hackcrag]

Gorylyches,

Gory-lyches? Ha ha, I knew no one can spell this crazy thing. Where the heck did they get the name "gornalichynldhz" or whatever anyway? I thought I knew just about every mythological animal, but I don't think I've ever heard of that one.

[ByteBandit]

Gorynyches are okay. I really like the Sorceress.
My favorite new artifact is the Dragonheart - Hands down.
But I've found one thing I dislike, is when I defeat an AI opponent, I notice some have a ton of Warlord Banners. Something like 10 or so! Either they don't equip their creatures with them or they find so many. (I've never found as many as they have when I defeat them.)

[mr.hackcrag]

I think that's largely because they often find them when they fight neutrals that appear every time it's "week of..." I actually find quite a few of them that way. It's better to attack them whenever possible and hope you get lucky.

I usually just keep them on 50% experience boost and often forget to change it when I fight a hard battle, so they're usually not as helpful as they could be for me. Lol!

It is weird though that almost every computer hero always has 3-5 warlord banners.

[Beholder]

hackcrag mentioned few interesting things:

- arrow towers: I just got what is wrong with them. They have no shooting range and can shoot to whatever creature there is. It would be nice if they would have some shooting radius.
- artifacts: I think that artifacts themselves are not overpowered but it is very easy to obtain tons of them. They should be harder to get, and there should be much less possibilities of getting your hands on relicts.
- finally artifacts are quite boring. Most of them gives +primary skill or +luck/morale. There aren`t many artifacts with 'special' effects. Let`s just hope that new artifacts that are yet to come will be 'special'

I don`t agree though on level 8 and higher creatures. I think it`s good that there are some powerfull creatures that are hard to get.

[mr.hackcrag]

I don`t agree though on level 8 and higher creatures. I think it`s good that there are some powerfull creatures that are hard to get.

I don't really mind having powerful creatures because they are pretty rare and cost a lot, as they should. I guess my real problem is the utter lack of creativity in these powerful creatures. There are probably more than 10 dragons in the game and they all look virtually the same and have virtually the same special abilities. When I pick up one of these powerful creatures, there's nothing that makes me feel that they are something special. It's just more of the same, but with a ton more health and attack.

I'm sympathetic though, because I assume it's difficult to have someone create an original artwork and have a group of code unique abilities to give it, that would seperate the creature from the usual things we're all used to.

Which reminds me of one more downside of stack experience. It removes the uniqueness of creatures. I remember when I felt that having a wyverns poison ability was something special to that one creature. Or that a hydras chaos strike was something that only it could do. Now, if you level up your creatures enough, many creatures can have those abilities. I still like stack xp a lot though.

On a side note, dragonflies have to be one of the most irritating creatures once they've maxed out their abilties. Those things drive me crazy!

[ByteBandit]

On a side note, dragonflies have to be one of the most irritating creatures once they've maxed out their abilties. Those things drive me crazy!

If you use the Beserker Fly script it can really be insane! But not to worry. We have re-edited the Beserker Fly script. Right now it is in the testing phase. Once we see it works properly, we will release it on Fnords' site along with the other final Beta test scripts. The new Beserker Fly script is more toned down than the existing one, but the stack experience bonus it gives has not been changed.

[mr.hackcrag]

Good grief, these berserker flies are unstoppable... unless fighting creatures that are resistant or move before them.

You don't even need to have a real army. Just split your berserker fly stacks and let your opponent destroy himself. I think they're on par with level 7 units in terms of usefulness/cheapness.

Edit: Another thing I like is the wise and mighty sphinx! So far, I'm only 1 for 3 on the riddles though. I got a bonus of 1 gem a day, for 4 days for answering "music." Ah, I miss so many objects from homm2. The sphinx is great! If only there was a return of desert terrain in homm3...

Another thing that is fun is finding "spookies" inside a magic well. Sometimes it's scary though.

I also fought my first battle in a death chamber. The design of the battle field and events were a nice edition. It made the battle a lot more difficult, and I love a challenge. I really wasn't expecting for all those ghosts to pop up. The reward was not to my liking though. Some resources and 50 ghosts. It would be nice if I was necropolis, but with troops of three alignments, plus undead, my moral was dangerously low. Besides, I think ghosts are sort of cheap units, but at least there different than some other monsters I know... Are there any other battles that are similar to the chamber? They're a lot of fun. (If you don't mind losing half your army.)

[ByteBandit]

Yeah, I like the Death Chamber too. Just beautiful when you step inside it's seething death! :-) (This script courtesy of Rich Reed.)
Right off hand, about the only object that's close to the Death Chambers' neatness, would be the Adventure Cave that I can think of. And another option in the WoG Options woud be Passable Terrain. With this option "on" you can traverse over mountains, albeit slowly. You encounter new objects on the battlefield according to the type of Terrain you are traversing over. (Both scripts courtesy of Fnord.)