Luck and expirience
- DaemianLucifer
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Luck and expirience
In HIII luck affected the attack,and in HIV it affected the defence.So why does it affect just attack again?Why doesnt it affect both?If a defender gets lucky,it receivec just 50% damage,and if the attacker gets lucky,it deals 100% more damage.If both get lucky,damage dealt is normal.
Can someone please tell me why it is so hard to implement stack expirience?The simplest way would be to add 1% to every stat of the creature for every level it gains,and make no limmit to its expirience.This way weak creatures would get their levels up quickly,but would receive just a small bonus(+1 to attack every 10 levels),while strong creatures would level up really hard,but each level would give them a mayor bonus.Is that really that hard to implement and balance?
Can someone please tell me why it is so hard to implement stack expirience?The simplest way would be to add 1% to every stat of the creature for every level it gains,and make no limmit to its expirience.This way weak creatures would get their levels up quickly,but would receive just a small bonus(+1 to attack every 10 levels),while strong creatures would level up really hard,but each level would give them a mayor bonus.Is that really that hard to implement and balance?
- Gaidal Cain
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Re: Luck and expirience
No, that's not hard. The problem is that it isn't very interesting... Stack experience should, IMHO bring something else besides a stat bonus. And then it becomes hard to balance. I'm not opposed to it, I just think there could be other things that the same effort could be better spent on.DaemianLucifer wrote: Can someone please tell me why it is so hard to implement stack expirience?The simplest way would be to add 1% to every stat of the creature for every level it gains,and make no limmit to its expirience.This way weak creatures would get their levels up quickly,but would receive just a small bonus(+1 to attack every 10 levels),while strong creatures would level up really hard,but each level would give them a mayor bonus.Is that really that hard to implement and balance?
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
WoG has stack experience, and I feel the results are mixed. Even if it is properly balanced (which I don't think it quite is, although they've done an admirable job of getting it close), it makes things too complicated. Essentially ever creature gets ten experience levels and with each level the creatures get new abilities. But it's just too much information to remember so I constantly am clicking on each creature to see what their special abilities are and try to assimilate that into my strategy... and then I get sick of it and so ignore it and then I'm not efficient. There comes a time where there is TOO much complexity. I think stack experience crosses that line.
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
I think it has something to do with the concept of the game as well. It is not called Creatures of might and magic, but Heroes of might and magic. So creatures are just like spells or artefacts, they are not meant to have anything to say or do unless the hero command them to. Do spells have experience points? no, they don't, so why stacks would have some?
if they implement stack experience they should seriously simplify it.
and maybe just limit it to 1 or 2 stacks?
and as cain said: stat experience that only results in stat boosts equals a big fat yawn.
and thirdly: a big part of the charm in heroes for me is stacks. if stack experience is implemented it shouldn't drastically change how you utilize your stacks. stacks are more important to game play than experience IMHO.
and maybe just limit it to 1 or 2 stacks?
and as cain said: stat experience that only results in stat boosts equals a big fat yawn.
and thirdly: a big part of the charm in heroes for me is stacks. if stack experience is implemented it shouldn't drastically change how you utilize your stacks. stacks are more important to game play than experience IMHO.
- ThunderTitan
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I don't think i'd like stack experience. Kinda overcomplicates things.
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Re: Luck and expirience
It's bloody obvious actually. Everything associated with Heroes IV is bad and symbolizes failure so that the developers shun it at any cost. You must be nuts by suggesting not going back to the Heroes III roots on this one, too.DaemianLucifer wrote:In HIII luck affected the attack,and in HIV it affected the defence.So why does it affect just attack again?
- ThunderTitan
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- Mutare Drake
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Luck isn't (and hasn't been) the biggest deal to me. It makes sense, and it certainly can be a wonderful thing when it works for you, but personally I don't care what it affects.
As far as stack experience...it makes sense, and would be neat, but I think it may be best to drop the idea (for now). As Corribus said, too many specialties make it hard to remember what troop has what, and as Gaidal Cain said an increase in stats is a bit boring. And we do have upgrades, which can be viewed as stack experience in a way.
As far as stack experience...it makes sense, and would be neat, but I think it may be best to drop the idea (for now). As Corribus said, too many specialties make it hard to remember what troop has what, and as Gaidal Cain said an increase in stats is a bit boring. And we do have upgrades, which can be viewed as stack experience in a way.
Yes if you wanted to do experience, I would suggest that troops are changed automatically to their upgrade after so many victories.
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- Mutare Drake
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That's not such a bad idea. It could even be an option...build the extra structure in your town to upgrade, or wait 'till it happens on its own. The former is costly, but quicker; the latter is cheap but takes a while (and requires that you don't lose the troop before it happens).
Only problem I'd see...Say you have 3 hydras. It takes 5 battles for them to upgrade. After battle 4, you buy an extra hydra that's never fought before. So in another battle, will 3 be upgraded and 1 not, or will all 4 upgrade, or none? The problem might arise that you end up with too many stacks.
Only problem I'd see...Say you have 3 hydras. It takes 5 battles for them to upgrade. After battle 4, you buy an extra hydra that's never fought before. So in another battle, will 3 be upgraded and 1 not, or will all 4 upgrade, or none? The problem might arise that you end up with too many stacks.
Of course. In WoG this problem is solved by "averaging" the experience points of combined stacks. I.e. if you mix a stack of level 10 creatures with an equal stack of level 0 creatures, you get a combined stack of level 5 creatures.Mutare Drake wrote: Only problem I'd see...Say you have 3 hydras. It takes 5 battles for them to upgrade. After battle 4, you buy an extra hydra that's never fought before. So in another battle, will 3 be upgraded and 1 not, or will all 4 upgrade, or none? The problem might arise that you end up with too many stacks.
If this was done where there was only the basic form and an upgrade, you could either just say that whenever you put new creatures in the stack, the experience goes back to zero (not very realistic) or you could do some sort of internal averaging. I.e. if it takes a defeating a total of 5000 HP of creatures to promote one of your creatures. Then you can just "average" the experience when new recruits join the ranks. The disadvantage here is, of course, that you'd never know how close you were to the upgrade unless it was displayed somewhere.
There could even be special upgrades that cannot be bought normally and could only be achieved through experience.
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
- IceCold2000
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Stack experience looks WAY too complicated. And it will confuse the vast majority of players who will then crash in the game. Hero experience is fine enough as it is.
And for Luck, I prefer the offensive kind of luck (in Heroes I - III) rather than defensive luck (in Heroes IV). It just makes more sense.
And for Luck, I prefer the offensive kind of luck (in Heroes I - III) rather than defensive luck (in Heroes IV). It just makes more sense.
- ThunderTitan
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How?IceCold2000 wrote: And for Luck, I prefer the offensive kind of luck (in Heroes I - III) rather than defensive luck (in Heroes IV). It just makes more sense.
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- DaemianLucifer
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Stack expirience is not complicated at all.The idea I gave was just to show how simple it can be.
Yes,it is stupid to have both upgrades and xp,thats why Im for just xp.Yes,the game is heroes of might and magic,but why do then heroes need creatures to go around the adventure map?And how many times have you draged those poor pikemen through 90% of the game,just to ditch them because they arent usefull any longer?This way,theyd still be usefull,not just like fodder,but as a fighting unit
Yes,it is stupid to have both upgrades and xp,thats why Im for just xp.Yes,the game is heroes of might and magic,but why do then heroes need creatures to go around the adventure map?And how many times have you draged those poor pikemen through 90% of the game,just to ditch them because they arent usefull any longer?This way,theyd still be usefull,not just like fodder,but as a fighting unit
- ThunderTitan
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Or they could be given certain usefull abilities that would work even in late game.DaemianLucifer wrote: Yes,it is stupid to have both upgrades and xp,thats why Im for just xp.Yes,the game is heroes of might and magic,but why do then heroes need creatures to go around the adventure map?And how many times have you draged those poor pikemen through 90% of the game,just to ditch them because they arent usefull any longer?This way,theyd still be usefull,not just like fodder,but as a fighting unit
Having both stackable units and stack experience seems kinda iffy. I never liked having exp in RTS games, so...
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- Thelonious
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No.DaemianLucifer wrote:Stack expirience is not complicated at all.The idea I gave was just to show how simple it can be.
Yes,it is stupid to have both upgrades and xp,thats why Im for just xp.Yes,the game is heroes of might and magic,but why do then heroes need creatures to go around the adventure map?And how many times have you draged those poor pikemen through 90% of the game,just to ditch them because they arent usefull any longer?This way,theyd still be usefull,not just like fodder,but as a fighting unit
No, no, no, it can be simpel, I know. But no. Pikemen will be useless during the end. But no amount of experiance can help that. Decrease the amount of creature levels, decrease difference between these levels. Make 1's have stack bonusses - like per 50 level 1's gain extra attack point, extra defence point. No experience. It's just silly. It's what Fabrice wants you to want. So next thing you'll know there is an army of level 3 pikachu's running around the adventure map.
Grah!
- Gaidal Cain
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Yes, it was simple- but it also weren't very interesting. There needs to be more to a Stack Experience system to make it interesting- and then it can quickly turn complicated.DaemianLucifer wrote:Stack expirience is not complicated at all.The idea I gave was just to show how simple it can be.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
- DaemianLucifer
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Not really.Just turn off the upgrades,strip units of most of the abilities and give them gradually with levels.Gaidal Cain wrote:Yes, it was simple- but it also weren't very interesting. There needs to be more to a Stack Experience system to make it interesting- and then it can quickly turn complicated.DaemianLucifer wrote:Stack expirience is not complicated at all.The idea I gave was just to show how simple it can be.
- ThunderTitan
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But how many levels? And when you add 20 lvl zero creatures to a lvl ten stack of 200 creatures how many levels does the stack drop?DaemianLucifer wrote: Not really.Just turn off the upgrades,strip units of most of the abilities and give them gradually with levels.
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