How much time to make a map

[Corribus]

Every map needs some story, but it is really a waste of time to make it long and very detailed. Story maps are not so popular. A good reason is that they are rarely well made. Mapmakers are mostly not profesional writers and their stories are full of boring stereotypes. So, keep it short people !

I couldn't disagree more. Naturally, different players like different types of maps, and many stories are full of cliches. But many map-stories I've read have been quite original, and I have to say the better maps I've personally played over the years have had detailed stories filled with interesting characters doing interesting things. A good story map doesn't have to have 100 pages of extracted text to be good. (But I am frankly bored by maps that don't have some sort of decent story attached to it.) Some of mine have definitely had stories that long, but that's just because I like to write. And I wouldn't accuse them of being filled with cliches until you've actually tried them.

Oh and story maps are definitely popular. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Crusard]

Well, Veldrynus is right.
It all comes down to how the story is formatted. I like stories that are content-rich, which don't use a whole paragraph just to describe the chair the main hero is sitting on.
For example, the H3 map Gaidal Cain suggested, Hail to the King, had a great and interesting story. The author, lacking the ability to write long texts in the awfully poor RoE editor, made separate text files to read at certain points of the story. At first I thought "Nah, I'll just read the small text boxes instead", but it ended up getting my attention, and read them all.
I don't like to name negative examples of game story-telling, but you can sure find them in many well-known maps.

[Corribus]

Oh... Don't mind me, I'm just getting confy and prepared for when Corribus arrives and starts trying to rip Vel to shreds.

Sorry if I disappointed you.
Seriously, I do recognize that different people have different tastes. But to say that nobody enjoys story maps just because he doesn't is a little narrowminded. I guess the hundreds of people who have written over the years to me to tell me that they've enjoyed my stories (not to mention the maps that contained them) were all lying...

I must get a few emails a month asking me when Cave of Dreams or TraemaskIII is coming out. (sadly, probably not soon)

[Vlaad II]

Yes, making the story and writing it takes most of the time in a well-made map.

Well, this depends on what you mean by "well-made map". I've always have seen this way : people who play a game, don't really care about the story in detail. Even if they are interrested in it, they get easily bored when they have to read 150 to 200 pages of text, to find out that you're The One Chosen Holy hero, who must face the armies of the Ultimate Evil and Destruction, who have nothing better to do than trying to bring Eternal Darkness to our world . More action, less words.
I think this is a good advise for mapmakers : Every map needs some story, but it is really a waste of time to make it long and very detailed. Story maps are not so popular. A good reason is that they are rarely well made. Mapmakers are mostly not profesional writers and their stories are full of boring stereotypes. So, keep it short people !

What he said.

[Pol]

* For me it takes eons, I have a few maps and they just grow up with me.

I found as an easier to alter some other maps and leveled it up, usually not from the story point but from strategic counter part.

*Ups, and I know lots of good storywriters, but percentually it will be a little less than 1%, still that mean at least 20 good maps for all our archives..... (And Myth&Legends or Seven from the classical 3DO production)

[Gaidal Cain]

For example, the H3 map Gaidal Cain suggested, Hail to the King, had a great and interesting story. The author, lacking the ability to write long texts in the awfully poor RoE editor, made separate text files to read at certain points of the story. At first I thought "Nah, I'll just read the small text boxes instead", but it ended up getting my attention, and read them all.

I'm glad you liked it. It's one of my favorites as well. And other people have found other ways of dealing with those long pieces of text, that doesn't require you to Alt-tab to read it

[ByteBandit]

I find that once I have the story pretty well intact, now comes the actual making of the map. And within this frame, I, like many will use the paintbrush. But I find that when I use it, it does'nt seem to always fit the land I'm trying to make. So, I find most of my time, after using the paintbrush, I am removing certain features and adding new ones, to make it look more natural. This is time consuming to say the least, but I find the map is purer to play afterwards, again and again.

[gravyluvr]

I have found that while I love the text and stories of the map, I also lack the patience to design the other portions. A map with too much text can weigh on you. A map with nothing gets boring fast. But saying that one style is better than another is just simply narrow minded. Not everyone prefers one over the other.

I like moderate but open stories with specific progression of goals. But if I start a map that has four okay buttons (because of long text) I'll never read another line.

[Veldrynus]

@Gaidal Cain

Ripping me to shreds ? Wahahahahahaha !!!

@ Corribus

A good story map doesn't have to have 100 pages of extracted text to be good.

Exactly, this is what I was saying (technically writing). I like story maps when they meet my high expectations. I've seen and played a few (very few) good story maps too. You did completely missunderstand me. I never said that all of them suck.

Seriously, I do recognize that different people have different tastes. But to say that nobody enjoys story maps just because he doesn't is a little narrowminded.

Lol. I know, my english sucks. I will use this fact as explanation of why you're almost never getting my points. The other explanation might sound less diplomatic. I never said that nobody likes story maps. Just check my previous post. It is a statistical fact, that RPG maps with a "heavy story" closely connected with the gameplay, tend to be less popular than other map types. Why ? In the first place, this is a strategy game, and not an RPG. If the knowledge of the story isn't necessary to finish a map, the popularity-loss for the map is minimal. Most people simply click "Ok" everytime a long text window pops-up. They play the map as a "normal" or "no-story" map. The problems occurs when the story needs to be known in order to finish the map, or/and it is mandatory for enjoying it. This is where such maps lose popularity.
I have to point out again : popularity of different map types is a statistical thing, wich means that some map types are more likely to be enjoyed by individual players than others. Remember, this has nothing to do with download counts for a map.

[ScarlettP]

oh... Y'all are going to be up shit creek if you start skipping the story on my campaign. All the directions to the towns and what not are hidden in the story.

[ByteBandit]

Yes, everyone has their opinion on how much text should be in a map. So, I'll give mine. I like a map with text to read every other day or so. But not every day. And not continually pushing the "Okay" button. And for me, the story about the map should only be within a two or three week time period. After that, it becomes too text heavy. If more text is needed, I guess that's why timed events were created.

[Gaidal Cain]

@Gaidal Cain

Ripping me to shreds ? Wahahahahahaha !!!

If you go back and read it again, you'll notice the inclusion of a word spelled "try". See if you can figure out what it means

[Thelonious]

Vel getting ripped is a site I've never seen. Vel's usually the one that rips people apart.

[Veldrynus]

@Gaidal Cain

Don't worry, I've noticed the "try". Don't see how this makes my comment less valid. The idea of someone trying ripping me is funny.

@Thelonious

You're damn right.

Another idea to add : Not all HoMM fans know english well. I think english speaking players are in minority. This makes reading long texts even more unpleasant for the most of us.

[Thelonious]

Well that last bit isn't really a valid reason.

Lets say you make a map, you aren't great in english so the englih you use in a map is understandable for most players - as you don't use words that are very hard - and require a great knowlege of english. So if english map makers don't use to much diffucult or higher english, everyone can read the texts.

[Corribus]

It is a statistical fact, that RPG maps with a "heavy story" closely connected with the gameplay, tend to be less popular than other map types.

If it is a statistical fact, then I'm sure you won't mind sharing your statistics with me.

[Gaidal Cain]

Another idea to add : Not all HoMM fans know english well. I think english speaking players are in minority. This makes reading long texts even more unpleasant for the most of us.

Depends. A great story doesn't equal a lot of big words and difficulties of understanding. And I think most of the maps that are rated high at maphaven (Not using CH as example since it doesn't seem to have capabilities to sort by rating) have lots of story. For example, you'll find THUNK up there, by Corribus, and if there's one thing he's known for, it's the humungus amount of text he puts into his maps. Saying that story maps isn't popular is just false.

[Corribus]

Saying that story maps isn't popular is just false.

Right. It's all relative, of course, and it may be that battle maps with no story may be more popular than so-called story maps. But that doesn't mean that story maps cannot also be "popular". It's like saying that since most people like McDonalds, then therefore Burger King is not popular. They're not mutually exclusive.

[Veldrynus]

I am saying that "heavy story RPG" maps are usually less popular than other map styles. The "usually" means that this applies to a larger number of maps ( not 100%!!!), and the "less popular" part means "less popular"and not "not at all popular".

@Corribus
If it is a statistical fact, then I'm sure you won't mind sharing your statistics with me.

Ok, I don't have exact numbers. All maps have features and attributes. All of these have a specific effect on the download count and popularity (download + ratings + feedback + opinions) of a map. By analizing them carefully we can determine the most likely effects of these. I was doing this sometime ago, trying to maximize the success of my maps. Doing such research, was worth my time. I was using real and exact map statistics (download count, size, ratings, etc...) ato make the calculations. I was also trying to take subjective features like looks of the minimap, name of the map, into consideration. Perhaps, someday I will write a guide about " How to create popular maps".
Anyway, I haven't played your maps, so I cannot rate them. Even if they are heavy on texts, they might be good and popular too. In statistics they are always exceptions. I have the feeling that you feel offended by my opinions, beacuse my mapmaking-philosophy differs from yours.
Perhaps some poll should could prove my points.

[DaemianLucifer]

Veldrynus,Corribus is just jealous that youre able to make a great map in such a short period.Seriosly,how do you do it?Do you glue yourself in front of the editor untill you finish?

I prefer maps that have a strong backround.They dont have to have 100 pages of story,but the story needs to be interesting and realistic.Draconic,for example,had just a few popups,but they were well placed and had a lot of meaning.Thunk,on the other hand,is very heavy on the story.But both maps are excelent for me(note,I havent played the original thunk,but just the wog version).Also,traped inside the best is a superb map,even though it has a popup almost at every step you make.But its highly interactive and really places you inside that beast.

Ive just realised how much HV will lose because of it "new" gameplay Without interactive maps,youll never be able to coexist with your hero,to become the hero itself