HoMM III: Best level 2 creature

[Muszka]

The Lizardmen are irrelevant as shooters because they are not really a threat.

It's an interesting thing what you've said. Because the they are the Fortress' only shooters, so I won't call them irrelevant. Also with the AB damage boost can shine and win battles for you, they are there at the early stages, and they will be in the end too actually I like them more the the GBasilisks, and use them more.
Yet I think that the blame of unpopularity is the RoE. I agree, that back there they were useless, even if you had thousands of them.

[Jolly Joker]

Well that's the problem, they are NOT there at the early stages, at least not on impossible (and I wouldn't use them on expert either). Why bother? They cost 5 Wood to upgrade and usually you cannot afford the upgrade.
The unit of choice are the Dragonflies. The upgrade doesn't cost any wood, your hero is fast, equipped with them, they reach every shooter immediately and with the Weakness spell they cast with their attack and the high defense value you have that your hero supports as well you just don't need them. On non-impossible difficulty you'll support the Flies with more substantial stuff pretty early anyway. For example, if you build the Gorgon Lair the Wood cost for the upgrade are 5 only as well and the same is true for the Basilisks.
I agree with GC here: with a shooter you want to deal damage IN THE BEGINNING. Whether they are durable or not isn't so relevant - you have bodyguards to protect them. That's why for Dungeon Beholders/Evil Eyes are completely irrelevant in the beginning: they are extremely expensive, but they don't deal damage. "Dealing damage" means that you kill opposing stacks faster which in turn means you don't lose (many) units).

This is exactly the reason why Marksmen and Grand Elves are primary targets later, when armies clash: they are a threat because they have the capacity to hurt: they are a threat. And that's the reason why they die faster. Against Fortress their Shooters and Fliers are not really that much of a threat - their grunts are.
The boost was good, though.

[Pitsu]

Are titans and medusae shooters or melee units?

Primarily shooters. Or are you saying that you often want your Titans to engage in melees but find it hindered by it's shooting ability?

What is the job of H4 heroes on battlefield?

It's impossible to discuss something that ill-defined. Heroes can be everything from tacticians which give some support to spellcasters to melee tanks to shooters.

You see titans and medusae as shooters, because shooting hes no retal. If forced into melee, they both are great melee units. Considering the stone gaze and limited number of ammo, I wouldn't even say that medusae are better in range. H4 heroes are of course the extreme example how a unit can fit several roles depending on players need. Marksmen are a unit with high specialization. They are great in that, but useless every other time. Also, do not forget, that I am not arguing that lizardmen or other units with less defined speciality are better, but I am arguing against your claim that "..no one would ever pick the warriors if given the choice between them" (them - lizard warriors and marksmen)

Huh? Castle has three very good fast units (even if two are slower than the Fortress units of corresponding level, they are fast enough to be able to handle shooters if backed by either Tactics, Haste or Prayer), two good slow ones and another shooter. Lizardmen are the only shooters of the fortress, which also has only one really outstanding unit. If anything, it's the Marksmen who are placed against a light background.

I did not mean the full armies here, but early game mainly. As also JJ said in previous post, lizard warriors are rarely an early priority for fortress player, because he has access to better units. At the same time upgrading archers to marksmen is a high priority to castle player. Hence the impression that marksmen are great, but lizard warriors next to useless.

[Jolly Joker]

I did not mean the full armies here, but early game mainly. As also JJ said in previous post, lizard warriors are rarely an early priority for fortress player, because he has access to better units. At the same time upgrading archers to marksmen is a high priority to castle player. Hence the impression that marksmen are great, but lizard warriors next to useless.

Exactly. That's why I said you are both right.
If you look at the ratings then you'll see that a single Lizard Warrior is better than a single Marksman in overall stats. If you put them against each other the Marksmen win, though, mainly because of their +1 in speed which gives them the 1st shot. Indeed, Marksmen are a very specialized unit, designed to dish out maximum damage from a distance. Their fragility is covered by their guards and doesn't count initially (except against an even better unit like the Grand Elf: 100 Marksmen won't even fire a shot against 100 Grand Elves ).
That means, that Marksmen early on shine and later die fast. Lizard Warrios rarely shine and rarely die fast.
It's basically the same discussion, by the way as with Sprites and Centaurs. Sprites shine early and die fast later. Centaurs WOULD shine, if Rampart wouldn't have a highly specialzed unit that simply is more effective. If the level 3 Rampart unit would be, let's say a more sluggish shooter like an Orc, for example, the upgrade needing Crystals you'd probably simply grade the Centaurs up and work with them.

[Banedon]

I'm with Gaidal Cain, though Pitsu makes some good points. Since Marksmen are so dangerous, and since as long as you protect them they won't take melee damage (they will though from spells and other ranged creatures) they are the superior creature. Their weakness in defense is compensated for by the difficulty in hitting them. Lizard Warriors aren't bad creatures, but the only times when they clearly outshine the Marksmen are when they're getting hit, and you don't want your Ranged creatures to get him.

If it were I choosing 7 creatures to put in my ideal town, I'd definitely rank the Marksmen a lot higher than Lizard Warriors, though of course I'd prefer my Marksmen all shapeshifted into Lizard Warriors when attacking a town (and shapeshifting back after) I think wimfrits put things into perspective with his comment from long ago - Marksmen are much superior so long as you aren't getting hit (which you shouldn't be), but once defense comes into the equation Lizard Warriors are better.

I did not mean the full armies here, but early game mainly. As also JJ said in previous post, lizard warriors are rarely an early priority for fortress player, because he has access to better units. At the same time upgrading archers to marksmen is a high priority to castle player. Hence the impression that marksmen are great, but lizard warriors next to useless.

Well I remember when I first started trying Fortress seriously in multiplayer games, I always went for Lizard Warriors first (that's primarily due to my experience with Castle / Rampart's strong ranged creatures). It wasn't very successful though; the rate of creeping was significantly slower than Castle / Rampart. I'd say that this 'impression' that Marksmen are great but Lizard Warriors next to useless is because Marksmen are great and Lizard Warriors inferior.

If you look at the ratings then you'll see that a single Lizard Warrior is better than a single Marksman in overall stats. If you put them against each other the Marksmen win, though, mainly because of their +1 in speed which gives them the 1st shot.

You have it backwards. On even ground, in equal numbers, Lizard Warriors > Marksmen. There was a page with the calculations somewhere, I've forgotten where it is though.

[Pitsu]

I'm with Gaidal Cain, though Pitsu makes some good points. ....

Lizard Warriors aren't bad creatures, but the only times when they clearly outshine the Marksmen are when they're getting hit, and you don't want your Ranged creatures to get him.
....

If it were I choosing 7 creatures to put in my ideal town, I'd definitely rank the Marksmen a lot higher than Lizard Warriors, though of course I'd prefer my Marksmen all shapeshifted into Lizard Warriors when attacking a town (and shapeshifting back after)

Once again, what got me into this discussion was GC claim that

it also gives results like Lizard Warriors being better than Marksmen - and yet no one would ever pick the warriors if given the choice between them.

I am not trying to tell that lizards are better than marksmen, I am saying that they both have their strong sides and there are many cases where lizards are preferred as joiners.

[Jolly Joker]

If you look at the ratings then you'll see that a single Lizard Warrior is better than a single Marksman in overall stats. If you put them against each other the Marksmen win, though, mainly because of their +1 in speed which gives them the 1st shot.

You have it backwards. On even ground, in equal numbers, Lizard Warriors > Marksmen. There was a page with the calculations somewhere, I've forgotten where it is though.

You can easily calculate for yourself.
100 Marksmen start (speed 6, opposing 5); deal 475 damage on average, killing 31 Lizard Warriors. 69 shoot back, doing an average of 277 damage, killing 27. If you half this for range, nothing changes: the remaining Lizard Warriors kill less Marksmen than the other way round, and since the Marksmen will always shoot first there inevitably comes the point when the Marksmen shoot and kill the last Warrior.
Of course you may decide to walk the Warriors up to the Marksmen to deny the Marksmen their second shot. This way the MMs will kill a roundabout of 60 Warriors at least before the Warriors hit the first time for 80 damage killing 8. The rest of 92 Marksmen will retaliate for 109 damage killing 7 and you can easily see that while the Warriors have a big advantage now it's not enough to win this still. Don't forget, that IF you did that, Marksmen could simply wait, if it's their turn, suffering the melee hit then, retaliate, move six hexes away, and then fire the next turn.
So, no, I don't think I have it backwards.

[Banedon]

http://www.strategyplanet.com/homm/mac/ ... rrior.html

[Pitsu]

The same story is also under HoMM III / fantasy deathmatches on CH

http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=36

If you half this for range, nothing changes:

Err, the lower damage per round the more rounds and the better for lizards, isn't it?

[Jolly Joker]

The same story is also under HoMM III / fantasy deathmatches on CH

http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=36

If you half this for range, nothing changes:

Err, the lower damage per round the more rounds and the better for lizards, isn't it?

Yes, you are right, of course. The lower the damage, the lesser the effect of having the first shot. Thanks for pinpointing out the reason for my error.

[Gaidal Cain]

Once again, what got me into this discussion was GC claim that

it also gives results like Lizard Warriors being better than Marksmen - and yet no one would ever pick the warriors if given the choice between them.

I am not trying to tell that lizards are better than marksmen, I am saying that they both have their strong sides and there are many cases where lizards are preferred as joiners.

Hmm. I'm prepared to give you that there are some situations were you'd prefer Lizardmen Warriors as joiners (Certainly if you're Fortress, or already have a strong stack of them). My claim was more based on a "make your own town" scenario, since "prefer as joiners" is not a very good measure (it places too strong value on what makes a unit a good expendable). Of course there are special situations were one unit is better than another, but if you are given no information of what you're supposed to face (or what the rest of your army is going to look like), I maintain that marksmen are the correct choice.

[Pitsu]

Of course there are special situations were one unit is better than another, but if you are given no information of what you're supposed to face (or what the rest of your army is going to look like), I maintain that marksmen are the correct choice.

I see that marksmen are highly efficient only against certain types of opponents and their efficiency depends a lot also on their bodyguards. Lizard warriors are not excellent against anything, but they also survive fast melee units and hero magic better even without bodyguards. Thus, I would say that without any knowledge about opponents or the rest of your army, lizard warriors are the safer pick. Taking marksmen is gambling (good odds perhaps, but still gambling).

[asandir]

You know what I like?

the reasoned debate going on, and the many different points of view that are being argued, most people have valid points and use their strengths and experiences to present their case, and there is JJ using cold hard maths, which I like btw .... it's all good, cause I'm not really sure there's a right answer, it depends on so many factors as a good fantasy/strategy game SHOULD .... it's ace!

[Gaidal Cain]

I see that marksmen are highly efficient only against certain types of opponents and their efficiency depends a lot also on their bodyguards. Lizard warriors are not excellent against anything, but they also survive fast melee units and hero magic better even without bodyguards. Thus, I would say that without any knowledge about opponents or the rest of your army, lizard warriors are the safer pick. Taking marksmen is gambling (good odds perhaps, but still gambling).

Well, yes, you're gambling on that you have something semi-decent as bodyguards (Gnolls would serve fine), but more so on what you're facing. Still, if you're facing lots of fast enemy units, neither are good- lizardmen are less sensitive, but not good. Harpy hags would be better for that kind of job.

[Muszka]

Well that's the problem, they are NOT there at the early stages, at least not on impossible (and I wouldn't use them on expert either). Why bother? They cost 5 Wood to upgrade and usually you cannot afford the upgrade.
The unit of choice are the Dragonflies. The upgrade doesn't cost any wood, your hero is fast, equipped with them, they reach every shooter immediately and with the Weakness spell they cast with their attack and the high defense value you have that your hero supports as well you just don't need them. On non-impossible difficulty you'll support the Flies with more substantial stuff pretty early anyway. For example, if you build the Gorgon Lair the Wood cost for the upgrade are 5 only as well and the same is true for the Basilisks.
I agree with GC here: with a shooter you want to deal damage IN THE BEGINNING. Whether they are durable or not isn't so relevant - you have bodyguards to protect them. That's why for Dungeon Beholders/Evil Eyes are completely irrelevant in the beginning: they are extremely expensive, but they don't deal damage. "Dealing damage" means that you kill opposing stacks faster which in turn means you don't lose (many) units).

This is exactly the reason why Marksmen and Grand Elves are primary targets later, when armies clash: they are a threat because they have the capacity to hurt: they are a threat. And that's the reason why they die faster. Against Fortress their Shooters and Fliers are not really that much of a threat - their grunts are.
The boost was good, though.

I have a bit different type of play. Since Fortress is a slow town IMO.(even if they come before Tower and Stonghold)I don't really like them. But I tend to like the 'new', AB version Lizard Ws. I Combine them with dragon flies, and I like the way that works, at least for me it works fine. And I never liked basilisks much more Mighty Gorgons, but they need Resource Silo, so they become avalaible later. And I tend to jump from Dragonf+ LizardW to hydras.

As for the comparations and calculation Banedon wrote about, I think I'll have some free time in the next few days, probably tomorrow, and I make one, 'cos though it's not that brobably to two armies face each other like that but I curious.

[Jolly Joker]

Note that I'm adding this only - it's not meant as critisizing your play - if it works for you, it's fine.
The Lizard Warrios make your hero slower - significantly so. With Flies alone you speed along and you need 5 days with Lizard Warriors for the way you cover in 4 days with Flies only.

[Muszka]

Note that I'm adding this only - it's not meant as critisizing your play - if it works for you, it's fine.
The Lizard Warrios make your hero slower - significantly so. With Flies alone you speed along and you need 5 days with Lizard Warriors for the way you cover in 4 days with Flies only.

I've never said that your critisizing my play. I've jut mentioned that it works for me. I know the L Warriors are slowing me, but if I have to engage an army of slowwalkers in week 1 or 2 i usually don't have enough files to beat them without losses, since the Beastmasters and Witches aren't so much of a spellcaster, you they can't really support them, in such fights. But as you know everything depends on situation.
I try to be flexible as much as I can. I usually like to play a shooter + support melee and/or tank unit. But that's not a rule.
Last time I've played, I've done it so playing only with sprites and they were more than enough till the Fbirds.

[Muszka]

I've tried the (not-so-relevant) one on one (many vs. many) fights between Marksman and Lizzard Warrior.
The fights were fought with 1st lvl Heroes without secondary skills, with* and without primary skills, on neutral-cursed ground.
(*only those recieved initially by native heroes)
I worked with the same numbers like in my lvl1 fights (1,5,10,50,100,500,1000)

The fights resulted some surprises.
In the 90% of the cases the Lizards won, in those cases 30% of the stacks remained alive.
In that 10% of times when Marksmen won, up to 10% their stacks survived.

I think that Lizards low and high damage differences caused Marksmens winnings.

I also think that the shooter dues are the most relevant of all duels of this type, since with shooters vs. shooters you never wait nor you defend. And none of these two shooters has the no melee penalty.

Takeing all these in acount comes the surprize the thing that the Lizards won.
Plus the Lizards have two advantages in front of Marksmen.
1) Blocked Marksmen are highly disadvantaged because they lose a hit and the other's damage got halved, while the Lizards only got their damage halved.
2)The Lizards and Marksmen have the same ammount of shots, so in 12 shots they exahausted all of their power, while Lizards last longer.

[Sir William S Titan]

Was considering the harpy, but the air elemental was the one that I think would be better.

[Alamar]

It's not fair counting the Storm Elemental because it's not really a traditional 2nd level creature so-to-speak.

As for the others I like the harpy hags [with an honorable mention to wolf riders] for their speed, range, and special abilities they really shine.

As for the Marksmen vs. LW debate I would generally prefer Marksmen as a part of my town .... decent damage, numbers, and speed are all things that I like in low level shooters.