What was the Forge incident?

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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What was the Forge incident?

Postby Symeon Star-Eyes » Jan 31 2006, 16:29

I've been hearing a alot about the Forge these last few days, and I've been wondering just what it was? If I'm correct it was a suggestion for a new town type for Heroes III, which was very technology-oriented?

I was introduced to the HoMM series through Heroes IV, and have only played Heroes III afterwards. So I don't really know the first thing about this "Forge incident".

Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

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Postby Corribus » Jan 31 2006, 16:55

Here's the low-down:

An expansion pack for Heroes III was originally supposed to contain a new town called The Forge. Essentially it was a "futuristic town" and featured orc wielding chainsaws and other such...creatures. Fan response was mixed from the beginning: many fans liked the new ideas but others felt that the sci-fi tech did not fit into the Heroes ethos. Thus there was a lot of debate over whether The Forge was the right direction for the game.

Unfortunately, at the most inopportune time, some concept art was inadvertantly leaked from 3DO/NWC which featured, among other things, bare-chested nagas wielding guns with tank treads. Quickly thereafter, a situation that was basically just a heated debate between fans turned ugly as some parents got involved. By accounts, some people actually sent death-threats to NWC employees (which is absurd no matter how you feel about a game). The press was so bad that NWC/3DO caved and scrapped the Forge and designed a whole new town (the Conflux) from scratch. The AB expansion is the result of that new town.

Even now, the effects of the Forge reverberate through the community like an old echo and you will see it brought up from time to time, especially when fans disagree with the producers of a Might and Magic product. Many still feel the AB expansion was half baked and lament that we never got to see the Forge (i'm not one of them, by the way).

There are also those who hypothesize that the Forge incident was the beginning of the end for 3DO/NWC and that it contributed to their ultimate bankruptcy. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but anyway... there you have it. The Forge in a nutshell.

N.B. Apparently there is a WoG project to resurrect the Forge as a Mod for H3. I don't know what the status of it is.

For the record, I was against the Forge from the start and I fought to get it changed. I did not like the concept of Sci-Fi in Heroes (well, at least that sort), but I think many anti-forgers (and pro-forgers, for that matter) really went too far in their actions. Now, dont' be surprised if this thread eventually gets closed, because Forge threads often do. People still have a lot of hard feelings over the whole thing. It's almost a Taboo subject.
Last edited by Corribus on Jan 31 2006, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Symeon Star-Eyes » Jan 31 2006, 17:28

Bare chested nagas with guns... 8|

I thought it was sort of dwarves with some advanced alchemy skills or some mechanical monster with cogs and levers (sort of like the Dragon Golem), which featured in the Forge. Personally I think that would have been nice, but orcs with chainsaws??

Guess I understand why people hated it!

But thanks for the info Corribus. And if no one else have anything constructive to add, I suggest the mods close this topic.

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Postby Angelspit » Jan 31 2006, 17:31

We'll never know if someone had something to add if we close the topic. ;)

I joined the community not long after the Forge War, so I don't have anything to add.
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Jan 31 2006, 17:32

Another thing that deserves mention is that Astralwizard, who at the time ran the largest heroes site, said something to the effect that "if the forge is in, I will not buy it". Somehow, people took this as an urging on his part to boycott the game. Eventually, that would spark an anomisity between people frequenting different fora to discuss the game. The Forge Wars also seems to have made NWC and 3DO feel resentment towards the fans which led to lessened communications.

As Corribus said, discussions on this topic has a way of turning into flame wars. I hope we'll not see that here (though anyone disagreeing with any point here are of course free to bring it up).
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Postby Symeon Star-Eyes » Jan 31 2006, 17:43

Angelspit wrote:We'll never know if someone had something to add if we close the topic. ;)

I joined the community not long after the Forge War, so I don't have anything to add.


Hehe, point taken ;)

It would have been fun to see some of the artwork/screenshots for the Forge creatures. Does anyone know where to look?

Edit: Nevermind, found the article on the Forge town on Age of Heroes (with artwork)
Last edited by Symeon Star-Eyes on Jan 31 2006, 17:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby HodgePodge » Jan 31 2006, 17:45

. . . . . . . . . . . . Image . . . . . . . . . . . .

Gaidal Cain wrote:
As Corribus said, discussions on this topic has a way of turning into flame wars. I hope we'll not see that here (though anyone disagreeing with any point here are of course free to bring it up).


I don't disagree, in fact I was one of the very fervent anti-Forge fans on the 3do forums. :-D

I was delighted when Armageddon's Blade was released that there was no Forge but in its place was the Conflux … one of my very favorite town types in Heroes III.

Here is a review of the Conflux I wrote about five years ago:

http://ancienthomeofdragon.homestead.com/HodgePodge_Conflux.html
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Postby Corribus » Jan 31 2006, 17:56

Gaidal Cain wrote:Another thing that deserves mention is that Astralwizard, who at the time ran the largest heroes site, said something to the effect that "if the forge is in, I will not buy it". Somehow, people took this as an urging on his part to boycott the game. Eventually, that would spark an anomisity between people frequenting different fora to discuss the game.

It was certainly the beginning of the end for the AstralWizard. He was unfairly caught in the cross-fire.

The Forge Wars also seems to have made NWC and 3DO feel resentment towards the fans which led to lessened communications.

Possibly, but they have only themselves to blame for that, if this ultimately contributed to 3DO's downfall. As a business you have to act in a professional manner, no matter how unprofessional your customers are.
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Postby Symeon Star-Eyes » Jan 31 2006, 18:12

Corribus wrote:N.B. Apparently there is a WoG project to resurrect the Forge as a Mod for H3. I don't know what the status of it is.


I believe you are referring to this site. As it was updated on January 23rd, I suppose they are still working on it.

It does seem kind of interesting, though I'm very uncertain as to how I'd like it. Perhaps it will be a good thing if they manage to complete their task and create a good-looking town with creatures of a high quality, and manage to balance it. It could be fun.
And in the form of a downloadable add-on it is rather harmless, don't you think?

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 31 2006, 18:28

Symeon Star-Eyes wrote:And in the form of a downloadable add-on it is rather harmless, don't you think?


Shhhh... you don't want the death threat people to hear that, do you.
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Postby Orfinn » Jan 31 2006, 20:22

ThunderTitan wrote:Shhhh... you don't want the death threat people to hear that, do you.


"A whole armada of anti forge fans rumble down from the hills with torches and forks at the ready, screaming" : "There he is kill him!! Never shall the Forge yet again appear and spread bad taste and chainsaw massacres!!!" :devil: :rofl:

Just kidding :D

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Postby Bandobras Took » Feb 1 2006, 0:07

I don't believe that the decision to replace the Forge with the Conflux directly contributed to the downfall, but I believe it was a factor.

Mainly because it seemed to be the first of many badly rushed, imbalanced expansions/products for the Might and Magic line. It's almost as though, in the frenzy to get Armageddon's Blade done after the design shift in midstream, those in charge of release dates figured that the production team ought to be able to make any expansion in the amount of time it took to switch things over.

I've had supervisors like that; you don't dare work your butt off on something, or they expect it every time, no matter the circumstances.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby Mutare Drake » Feb 1 2006, 0:59

Ah, so this is the whole story of the Forge. I'm glad it never got in, I don't like that type of technology in a fantasy setting (it took me a while to get used to blasters and the Lincoln in MM7). Crazy how people reacted though...quite extreme.

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Postby asja » Feb 1 2006, 1:31

Mutare Drake wrote:Crazy how people reacted though...quite extreme.


That sure is! But you never know how that kind of stuff:orc wielding chainsaws, bare-chested nagas wielding guns with tank treads can affect young players..I remember a similar incident in my country few years ago,which was not related to a game though-eventualy, there was a pretty stupid show for kids running on TV and unfortunately, many kids liked it... In one serial, one of the kid's so called heroes "jumped" in a animated well,and after seeing it,so did one kid who drowned.It was a real tragedy. That show is now forbiden... Imagine if that kind of kid saw orc with a chainsaw 8|

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Postby Bandobras Took » Feb 1 2006, 2:09

Imagine responsible adults keeping a chainsaw where children can get at it . . . 8|
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Oct 5 2007, 1:29

Auto Interview with Greg Fulton
It is a letter (As a FAQ) written by Greg Fulton, designer HoMM and NWC member, right after the decision to remove Forge from AB expansion. Some parts (about present form of AB expansion, 3DO forum and Astral Wizards site) were cut off. This letter in original form was on Astral Wizads site, but unfortunately it's not available anymore.


Q - Question
GF - Greg Fulton


Q: WAS THE FORGE A BAD IDEA?

GF: We will never know.


Q: WILL THE FORGE RETURN?

GF: Perhaps, but not in its current form.


Q: IS THE TITLE 'ARMAGEDDON'S BLADE' CHANGING?

GF: No, but the story line is.


Q: HOW FAR ALONG WAS THE FORGE TOWN?

GF: A first draft of the town screen was finished and awaiting revision. We also had a first draft of each creature and its upgrade and were proceeding with revisions. All but one map for the campaign was finished.


Q: WHAT WAS THE STORY LINE?

GF: Armageddon's Blade followed a story line set up in the forthcoming Might and Magic 7. In the M&M7 story, Archibald's necromantic Advisors build a machine capable of creating high weaponry. In the Armageddon's Blade campaign, these Advisors build Forge towns and set out to destroy Erathia. Catherine's only hope to stop these hi-tech horrors is to obtain the fabled 'Armageddon's Blade'. In the end, Catherine finds Armageddon's Blade and destroys all remnants of the Forge towns, concluding the Might and Magic 7 story line.


Q: WHY DID YOU PULL THE FORGE?

GF: Reason One: As much as I thought the actions of many fans showed a lack of vision and an inherent distrust for a company who have given them hundreds of hours of quality gameplay, I still didn't want to fight our fans. Reason Two: There wasn't enough pro-Forge activity.


Q: DO YOU THINK 50% OF THE HEROES FANS WERE AGAINST THE FORGE?

GF: No. Total, the number of emails we received asking to remove the Forge were less than 100. I doubt 3DO received much more. As a series, Heroes has sold over 750,000 copies world wide. I would be surprised if more than 5% of the audience would have 'boycotted' the product. However, I still felt 5% was too high.


Q: DID THE NETHER GOD'S POLL AFFECT YOUR DECISION?

GF: No. The Nether God's poll was bogus. I voted for all three options three separate times with a dynamic IP.


Q: WE DON'T LIKE THE ELEMENTAL TOWN.

GF: "You'll get the elemental town, and you'll like it."


Q: DOES SCIENCE FICTION BELONG IN HEROES?

GF: Yes. Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism. If you disagree, your reasoning is emotional, not logical. Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons. If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.


Q: DO SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MIX?

GF: In the Might and Magic universe they do.

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Postby PhoenixReborn » Oct 5 2007, 1:40

UndeadHalfOrc wrote: If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.


I'll bite. I just popped in but based on recent threads we have a lot of might and magic historians around here. Anyone know the answer to that question?

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Postby Kareeah Indaga » Oct 5 2007, 1:48

Nope. There are theories though. One goes that the angels are automatons, like Corak and Sheltem.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 5 2007, 7:17

What are the other theories?!

Maybe they're genetically engineered super soldier Jango Fett clones...
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Postby Avonu » Oct 5 2007, 7:36

Or maybe there are descendants of Warren Worthington III? :D
After all we had lasereyed cyclops in H1-2.

Q: DO SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MIX?

GF: In the Might and Magic universe they do.

Until close-minded company boughty Might and Magic franchise. :mad:


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