Is there any way you can destroy Order in Heroes 4?

[Night_Heaven]

Everytime I play Order seems to be the most powerfull faction no matter what.Do you have any strategyes?I am talking about human oponent of course.It is a little uncool because when I want to won at Heroes 4 I choose Order.I have seen that my friends (even my sister) love other castles but actualy Order is my favourite because 90% of the time I am wining with this race. Do you have any srategyes with other race that can beat Order?

[Akul]

Donwload the Equilibrius mod. Many people say that other factions are now as strong as Academy.

[klaymen]

base: hero fast and immune to magic
if mind spell - dispell or exorcism (you can learn order magic too)
if illusions - dispel or cancellation
on spellcasters - magic leech or spell shackle
and so on

[pepak]

Order has an extremely slow start so a good Death of Might player should win quite easily simply by outracing an Order opponent; a Nature player also has a pretty good chance. Later in the game, barbarian heroes rule - there's nothing an Order player can do against a hit and run of 5-6 mid-level (10-12) barbarians.

[Kalah]

The most powerful creature in the H4 Academy is the genie. An army of 100+ genies is all but unbeatable. Take out the genies and you stand a chance. If you can get hold of the berserk or hypnotize spell and cast it on them, that's good. Keep them out of the battle at all cost; don't let them cast illusion or ice bolt on your troops.

[Meandor]

Can`t beat them? Join them!

100 genies usualy won`t appear in normal game.

Necro- just mass vampires
Haven- mass order ward + tactics + angels = dead order.
Might- train some combat heroes with MR.
Chaos- Rush for black dragons and make thief hero with high combat skills

[pepak]

The most powerful creature in the H4 Academy is the genie. An army of 100+ genies is all but unbeatable.

Barbarian superheroes, anyone?

Keep them out of the battle at all cost; don't let them cast illusion or ice bolt on your troops.

Dispel, Cancellation, anyone?

[Night_Heaven]

Aha...well..here are some good points but is easy to speak than do. You said Order has a slow start however they have better 2 level units.How can I manage do beat those golems?50 hp??With mage is even worse..

Barbarian superheroes you say..but how much damange a barbarian hero can do? Even mell genies are strong(they grow soo many!!)

Soo..ilusions..dispel and cancellecion..good..finnaly I know how can I escape that horrible duplicates.Many hugs

Mass vampires?With what? Grandmaster necromancy?I almost never do that...of
About Chaos and black dragons...Titans have chaos ward and are hard to kill..that is soo unfair
And is another things..experimented players play as a lord..and they will get them extra army and extra money along with resources...

Sorry for spelling..english not a native language.

[Psychobabble]

Barbarian superheroes you say..but how much damange a barbarian hero can do? Even mell genies are strong(they grow soo many!!).

Rush early with barbarian superheroes (at low teen levels, hopefully with GM archery). Every amount of damage they do (augmented by imortality potions if they don't get canceled) is enhanced by the fact that that you can just run away with no cost, while they have to pay for new creatures. Use cheesy strategies to protect your barbarians early in the combat, like single centaurs so they can't be seen by the genies ice bolt (if not magic immune).

[Banedon]

Barbarian superheroes are...well...evil. I gave up on using them long ago because they're just too evil. Key point is that even if they can't win the battle outright, they can and will be inflicting casualties while never getting killed (they can retreat at zero cost). A good amount of such superheroes kill more than GM Nobility can compensate for, and once that happens you'll win eventually by attrition. Genies are excellent units, but once a Barbarian reaches GM Magic Resistance they're dead in the water.

Order has a slow start. Gold Golems / Magi are good units, but to kill effectively at the start they will need their Halfling stack (and Precision) - and even then Order will have to continuously sacrifice Dwarves (not that this is too important though). And with Halflings moving relatively slowly on the adventure map...if you play Death you'll see just how fast Death moves (turn 2 Vampires is killing - 2 Vampires thump 100 Berserkers) and then you might appreciate Order a little less

I don't know about Nobility; I find it the weakest of all attribute trees. Having 10 extra Genies means nothing if your Tactician gets nuked dead in the first round (and with Chaos, it's quite possible), and even Titans having Chaos Ward means little once the Black Dragons get their hits in or they get Stone Gazed by Medusae (though you should absorb their retaliation first). Order is not a nice foe once they get their mind spells, but by then you can (hopefully) cast Exorcism or something similar.

[pepak]

Aha...well..here are some good points but is easy to speak than do. You said Order has a slow start however they have better 2 level units.How can I manage do beat those golems?50 hp??With mage is even worse..

If you want a demonstration, I'll gladly help you :-)

Regarding slow start: Consider that a Death player can have Vampires on turn two and with these vampires he will be able to wipe out just about every level 1 and at least half of level 2 units. That means that while you are still struggling to get your first mine, a Death player will already have a full complement of his mines, artifacts and bonuses from his starting area (and experience - he will likely be on GM Necromancy or GM Combat even while you struggle to get to second level).

Also consider that an Order army will have some 18 movement points a week while a Death army will move 29 squares...

Barbarian superheroes you say..but how much damange a barbarian hero can do? Even mell genies are strong(they grow soo many!!)

An awful lot! And for free - if you manage kill 5 of those 6 barbarians, the last one will simply run away and resurrect the others at no cost at all. Even if you lost but one unit in that fight, you are still worse out because you lost more than the barbarians did.

And is another things..experimented players play as a lord..and they will get them extra army and extra money along with resources...

Well, yes, it would help. But overall, that experience you use building a Nobility hero would be more effectively used to build a barbarian.

[Meandor]

An awful lot! And for free - if you manage kill 5 of those 6 barbarians, the last one will simply run away and resurrect the others at no cost at all. Even if you lost but one unit in that fight, you are still worse out because you lost more than the barbarians did.

I see it as a bug, imho in normal mp game such tactics should be banned.

[Psychobabble]

I see it as a bug, imho in normal mp game such tactics should be banned.

And how is might meant to compete if they can't use their strongest asset, then?

[Banedon]

An awful lot! And for free - if you manage kill 5 of those 6 barbarians, the last one will simply run away and resurrect the others at no cost at all. Even if you lost but one unit in that fight, you are still worse out because you lost more than the barbarians did.

I have to disagree with that. If you kill only one unit it's time to change tactics, because you do lose something - movement points. Movement points sets an upper limit on how much hit-and-runs Might can conduct, and it's imperative to kill more than how much the opponent can regenerate.

[Meandor]

I see it as a bug, imho in normal mp game such tactics should be banned.

And how is might meant to compete if they can't use their strongest asset, then?

It`s abuse of the system.

[Banedon]

It isn't. How do you intend to play Might if you can't do that? Without magic you'll get thrashed in any even combat, even with Breeding Pens. You simply have to hit-and-run and decimate his armies such that your own is too big to resist.

Have you ever tried playing King Rupretch Attacks or some similar map? Your opponents have enormous armies, but with judicous use of spells you can easily win the battles. Say Might goes up against Death with 100 Thunderbirds. Death has 30 Bone Dragons. Death casts Fatigue, Curse, Weakness and Sorrow on the Thunderbirds while using Vampiric Touch on his Bone Dragons. How would the battle end then? Or maybe you go up against Life. Life uses Mass Fervor, Prayer, Mass Bless and Celestial Armor, then delegates one Priest to casting Song of Peace.

Simply put, Might has to use the superheroes at his command. It's not abuse of the system. If it were, Might would have no chance.

[Psychobabble]

Simply put, Might has to use the superheroes at his command. It's not abuse of the system. If it were, Might would have no chance.

Second that.

This discussion reminds me of a different one we had a while back at the old round table. If you read that you might also get some hints on how to beat order using rangers .

[Meandor]

It isn't. How do you intend to play Might if you can't do that?

Army of super heroes- OK
Retreating to get no losses- cheap and abuse of the system.

That`s my point of view.

[Banedon]

Well it'd take a supremely levelled army of super-heroes to take out a more normal army in a fair fight, especially when one side gets backed by magic and the other isn't. You can hardly dent a Nature army supported by Dragon Strength, Regeneration and Mass Fortune, for example.

I'll agree it's cheap, but it's not abuse. The other races have a fair chance of winning, too - so long as they can minimize their losses from the hit-and-runs, they'll eventually build up an insurmountable lead.