H3: Fav Lvl2 critter.

[csarmi]

Castle heroes just plain suck. Knights are bad (leadership? navigation? come on!) and clecrics are probably the worst class in all.

edit: YES, Mullich sux too.

[Nucleon]

I wonder if my "Lizardmen against Marksmen Lizardmen win" comment started this. I will say Nucleon can argue a point to its death, resurrect it, and argue it again. And repeat the process two or three times. Unfortunately, I always seem to disagree with him, heh.

Is there any rational reason for that, or is it just by principle?

The Lizard Warrior vs Marksmen test was a thing He spotted a long time ago. He tought everybody knew about it.

[Nucleon]

Castle heroes just plain suck. Knights are bad (leadership? navigation? come on!) and clecrics are probably the worst class in all.

Knights are great. It would be better, with Castle's speed and its shooters, if they priviledged Attack instead of Defense, but the skills they get is excellent.

And don't talk about Sylvia, you; On marine maps, she's the absolute best!

As for Clerics, they are fine magic heroes, not so strong as damage-oriented mages, but they excel at support. Druids are much more worse.

[Bandobras Took]

Thanks for that. Did you play Red or Blue? And on Impossible, what was your building scheme?

I was Red.

I can't remember my exact building scheme. I do know that my day one build was a Town Hall, and that I didn't buy my castle until some time in week two, as the 5,000 gold was a bit heavy for where I was. I also came to Mighty Gorgons late and Hydras early, which isn't my normal approach, but it worked out well.

I left Bron with a large stack of Basilisks and Gnolls to defend my town (which ended up working well -- resistance makes a great defensive skill) and moved out with ranged Lizards in the early game, fast fliers (Wyvern Monarchs and Dragonflies) in the midgame, and tough Walkers (Mighty Gorgons and Hydras) for the end game.

I did get a rather interseting advantage in that a Witch Hut near my town taught First Aid, making my first aid tents significant advantages (I got neither cure nor bless until the end of the map -- grr . . .)

Anyway, the point of this rather long rambling is probably that a creature specialist contributes to the general usefulness of low-level creatures.

[Bandobras Took]

Castle heroes just plain suck. Knights are bad (leadership? navigation? come on!) and clecrics are probably the worst class in all.

I have to disagree. Witches are the worst class of all for their town. There's never been a more pathetic selection of secondary skills and specialties. At least with Clerics, you've got people like Caitlin (+350 Gold), Adela (Diplomacy), or Loynis (Prayer). With Witches, you've got stuff like Mirlanda (Weakness, but Advanced Wisdom is quite possibly the most useless thing I can imagine for the Fortress, Tiva (Eagle Eye, anyone), Merist (Stoneskin -- as if the Fortress didn't already have high defense troops), Styg (Sorcery? Since when was the Fortress about Direct Damage?). Verdish, Andra, or Rosic can be decent, but they still have to deal with having Basic Wisdom without a Mage Guild that makes wisdom worthwhile. With the Fortress, you almost have to go with Beastmasters, but there are some arguments for choosing a cleric with the Castle.

[LordScimitar]

Castle heroes just plain suck. Knights are bad (leadership? navigation? come on!) and clecrics are probably the worst class in all.

Whow...whow. What castle heroes are we talking about here? I must disagree with this.

Leadership can be a great skill. It depends on the artifacts you get. Also, it depends on how effective diplomacy can work for you or how many varied towns there are. There are times when its a waste, yes. The medallion of courage is probably the most overpowered single artifact in the game. Can you imagine a medallion that gave you expert earth and air? Or expert wisdom and one of the schools? Or *gasp* logistics and pahtfinding as experts? Youch.

Then, there's Lyonis. Mass Prayer is very nice. And, it isn't just countered by slow/disrupting way/etc. Yes, mass dispell, but, if the other player is wasting every turn with a mass dispel, it helps. Though, it is more costly. Then again, there is an artifact that prevents dispell.

I forgot her name, but there's also a mass bless specialist that is quite good. In fact, these 2 heroes are the best spellcaster heroes (Mid-late game, where Solymr loses his effectiveness). Wait, I take that back-Resurrection specialists are also nice.

And, if we're comparing archery heroes, Orrin comes to mind. Though, I'll admit, he's no Crag Hack. But, I still think he's a good hero.

Finally, the gamebreaker: Sir Mullich. Though, I suppose if he's banned or its not a...when did he come in? I don't have AB. If he's not banned he is simply one of the best heroes. Early, mid, late game, it doesn't matter. Its the only "same no matter what level" hero I like.

About half the towns are equal. Dungeon (gold producers can be scouters, resurrection specialists, and a logistics specialist), Rampart (Resistance/Logistics), Necropolis (Animate Dead/Necromancy), and Fortress (2 offensive, 1 logistics).

Half are worse: Infernos have the absolute worse heroes, Fortress' are awful (though, apparently that basilisk specialist is good, but still overall, meh). Tower, for some reason I'm a bit blurry on, but I can't think of anyone. Solymr with chain lightning is nice if there's a magic well nearby. Otherwise, you're wasting every other turn by staying in your castle recharging your mana.

So, how are castle heroes bad? Mass Bless++, Mass Prayer++, +2 speed, possibly archery.

EDIT:
Of course. How could I forget Castle also has a gold producer that can be used for scouting as well as having a high chance of obtaining diplomacy!

[Nucleon]

I was Red.

I can't remember my exact building scheme. I do know that my day one build was a Town Hall, and that I didn't buy my castle until some time in week two, as the 5,000 gold was a bit heavy for where I was. I also came to Mighty Gorgons late and Hydras early, which isn't my normal approach, but it worked out well.

I left Bron with a large stack of Basilisks and Gnolls to defend my town (which ended up working well -- resistance makes a great defensive skill) and moved out with ranged Lizards in the early game, fast fliers (Wyvern Monarchs and Dragonflies) in the midgame, and tough Walkers (Mighty Gorgons and Hydras) for the end game.

I did get a rather interseting advantage in that a Witch Hut near my town taught First Aid, making my first aid tents significant advantages (I got neither cure nor bless until the end of the map -- grr . . .)

Anyway, the point of this rather long rambling is probably that a creature specialist contributes to the general usefulness of low-level creatures.

Nice commentaries... Now that seems a game to which Nucleon can relate; He feels he would have played somehow likewise (he was beginning to wonder...). You would probably had it more easy if you took blue, thought.

He also agrees with your assessment of the Witches, althought Voy kicks tails in more marine maps. Merist herself is not so bad neither, thought, her "Stone Skin" being useful to protect a specific stack at game starts, like Lizards and Dragonflies.

[Banedon]

Eh csarmi you should start using quote tags...your post is a bit difficult to read.

Nope, the AA's win because of their first two attacks (AA attack - AB retals, AA attack - AB retals, AB attack... etc).

I knew I had forgetten something...anyway the fact that if the Archangels attack at once they lose is a powerful statement that 1v1s mean nothing at all.

Two angels versus one is a big difference too. Three over two is really meaningless, though.

It isn't. Having a single Angel gives you the move speed and first spell initiative, and that's about enough. Having 2 Angels would be critical in an endfight, but if it's against neutrals it's good enough to have one.

Yea Inferno probably wins if they have the same forces, but they won't. Conflux goes into endfights with much better heroes, much more troops, much better artifacts. That's too much.

You didn't say that then

AA's and AB's focus on killing completely different kind of troops. Surely there won't be fight between them(yea the AB's will attack AA's and the latter ones will try to avoid it).

We should say Archangels will attack the Ancient Behemoths, but only if they do not incur a retaliation. Ancient Behemoths would also do the same if possible.

Mines are no part of a town. Having a town does not guarantee you mines. If you don't have them, for some reason or another, chances are you are going to deal with the Marketplace, and build a silo.

I challenge you to show me a map where there are no mines at all.

Marksmen and Lizard Warrior tasks; Staying at their end of the battlefield and shoot down ennemies.

Do you prefer Evil Eyes or Grand Elves?

First, Nucleon salutes your honesty. Then, changing difficulties also modifies the number of other ressources you have at the start of the game.

I know. But it can be compensated for. Since I played Rampart all I needed to recruit were the Grand Elves, and that itself doesn't cost much Gold (Wood is a different matter). Either way I should manage without much difficulty.

Extra towns, in the first weeks, are likely to slow your main town's development if you invest in them. If you do, they will bring you 500 golds per day. In the case where you sacrifice 5 woods and 3000 gold, they will earn you double, of course. The value of a Gold Mine.

You don't really have to invest in them. Just reap their 500 gold / day and be happy with it.

Having no spells, like "slow", "View Air/Earth", "Magic Arrow", "Haste" nor "Cure" is a disavantage any way you cut it, even more so in the first week where you must capitalize on all of what you've got.

Not if you've got Marksmen. You do not seem to appreciate the killing power Marksmen give.

On Expert difficulties, you will find yourself having pauses in your town advancement in the second week, moreso with the costly buildings you aim for. When this happen, you may find that the Griffins (one of the best 3rd level troop there is) are helping a lot not getting you stalled; The next troops you are going to produce that have speed above 7 are the Champions, fine troops but expensive in ressources and unable to fly over castle walls in sieges.

What? Buy Royal Griffins because they can help me get resources? How, when all the loose resources are already taken and all the free towns already held?

And if you don't have a fast troop, early, you'll lose the spell initiative, and that can have dire consequences.

Royal Griffins aren't fast. They're fast in comparison to other Castle troops, but run into a Fortress player early and you'd still be outsped. Or Inferno. Or Stronghold. Or Dungeon. Or Rampart. And so on and so forth...

You don't have cash. Nucleon, with is development scheme, will have a lot more than you do. You recognized this a few posts earlier.

Allow me to rephrase my sentence.

No wonder you have no cash to pursue a more aggressive development plan.

In all due respects, and respect Nucleon does have for you indeed, you have not demonstrated that yet.

It will be proved to you then. Give me some time.

A question here; In official tournaments, does the duelling players are allowed a study of the map before the game? That may dictate what you will be able to build.

I have not taken part in official tournaments. For this question, ask LordScimitar.

Not so sure about this. Often, loose ressources and Chests are a starting town feature, and are getting rarer past the first week. And as a larger map often means more adventure, more towns and more fights, map designers often don't overload it with sweets past the immediate viccinity of your starting town.

It's in larger maps where you get more towns. Consider the map Free For All. Surely as the game progresses, you'd have far more resources.

Put "at game starts" in your statement, and Nucleon shall agree. Put "up to the final battles" in its stead, and He shall disagree.

How do you intend to prove this?

[LordScimitar]

Eh, Banedon, I don't know anything about official tournaments. Not a thing. No multiplayer play at all in fact.

But, realistically, yeah, they'll get a look. In Warcrafts, if you don't know the map, you're going to lose. Again, I don't play multiplayer, but its a general concensus. Plus, the maps are all the same over and over. You can't really get a map that two people haven't played. Especially if its a "packed in map". It just isn't possible. Sure, it'd be nice, but its impossible.

So, I'd say, you'd be foolish not to have studied the map very well before playing on it. Unless you custom build a map JUST for ONE TIME Multiplayer duel, the maps are going to be seen beforehand.

Just my guess.

BTW, let's change this a bit:

Let's assume that marksmen and lizardmen have 1 hp a piece. Who'd you rather have? Marksmen. They'll deal damage faster and hit harder before they're ripped to shreds. If they're getting attacked, they die, period. This is how I treat both my Lizardmen and my Marksmen. If they're getting attacked, they are now useless and are dead. Sure, Lizardmen may not all die in the first or second attack, they may last four, whereas marksmen will only last two. But, if my marksmen get hit once, or twice, they are now totally useless. That's it. They're gone. Even if some of them survive its such a small amount they no longer matter. The Lizardmen? Sure, they may still be alive after taking 2 strong hits. Maybe even have 30% of their units still left. But, when you should have 60 lizardmen, and you only have 18, what are those lizardmen going to do? Is any damage they do going to be really worthwhile? Are they going to be anything other than a minor annoyance? Will those 18 Lizardmen be making up for the damage my Marksmen did before my Marksmen died? Nope.

Thus, why I think marksmen are better. Because, if they get attacked, they're ruined. Lizardmen may take an attack better, but, still, if they get attacked, they're also ruined. They may stay alive a while longer but they're already dead. Lizardmen are chickens. Their heads may be cut off but they're still running around in a wild fury and accomplishing very little. Marksmen are snakes. Sure, you may've cut their heads off. But, they already bit you, and poisoned you. The damage has been done and the % of troops they already killed isn't going to be recovered (well, resurrection can, but bringing in a fourth level spell kinda changes the whole game anyways), and for the rest of the fight the bite in the enemy's forces shall remain. Lizardmen? Eh it was a bite, but a much smaller one.

[Banedon]

I remember you mentioned somewhere that Necropolis is banned in tournament play?

Anyway Nucleon I'll be gone for the next three days (going away) and during this time I have quite a few things to do, so I won't be able to attempt the All For One challenge for some time. Sorry.

[Orfinn]

Castle heroes just plain suck. Knights are bad (leadership? navigation? come on!) and clecrics are probably the worst class in all.

Navigation and leadership does NOT suck!

Navigation is very valuable on maps with alot of sea travelling and sea travel is forexample a very important factor to invade enemy islands and pick up sea swag.

Leadership, c'mon you need it, noone (besides necro heroes) cant go without that one especially not if theres alot of great creatures to ally yourself with using expert diplomacy, also leadership is a valuable asset in a battle and gives you a chance lose less or at least have a chance to cripple the army if you are going to lose (if not the enemy has morale reducing artifacts etc that is)

[csarmi]

Yes, Navigation and Leadearship does suck. Diplomacy is broken. You are not allowed to use it anywhere. Magic heroes suck already, but amongst them, Clerics are the most pathetic. And knights are SURELY the worst might class. They get crappy skill choices and have bad chances to get the right magic.

And these are facts. I won't argue them, sorry.

@Bandobras: Stoneskin - the more defense you have, the better this spell becomes. And yes Fortress heroes would get use of wisdom. The map is not empty yu know.

@Banedon: Having 2 angels is a zillion times better than one. You can do all the shooter fights, for example. You can do all the banks. Both are impossible with only one.

[Nucleon]

I challenge you to show me a map where there are no mines at all.

Rarely starting towns, that's a given... but often secondary towns.
Nucleon plays almost exclusively on downloaded maps, most of them being made by himself or His friends, and as a bunch, we tend to favor a slower development, as to impose harder building choices. We think it is somewhat sad and predictable that everthing is build by the end of the first month.

Do you prefer Evil Eyes or Grand Elves?

Good question, and very comparable troops. Personnally? Grand Elves, but it is more a question of style, faction preferance and early game usefulness. In certain situations like defending a town, He would rather chose E-Eyes, who get about every advantage over the Elves, but for cost, and Damage, where the difference is indeed greater than between L-Warriors and M-Men.

Grand Elves are particularly targeted by the ennemy, and as the Rampart's only shooters, Nucleon would understand that a rampart players would use all of his ressources to defend them, as opposed to the Castle player.

Having no spells, like "slow", "View Air/Earth", "Magic Arrow", "Haste" nor "Cure" is a disavantage any way you cut it, even more so in the first week where you must capitalize on all of what you've got.

Not if you've got Marksmen. You do not seem to appreciate the killing power Marksmen give.

What does it have to do with the lack of spells?

What? Buy Royal Griffins because they can help me get resources? How, when all the loose resources are already taken and all the free towns already held?

Royal Friffins will help you get these towns.

Royal Griffins aren't fast. They're fast in comparison to other Castle troops, but run into a Fortress player early and you'd still be outsped. Or Inferno. Or Stronghold. Or Dungeon. Or Rampart. And so on and so forth...

Point Taken. However, Royal Griffins are fast enough to take one doule shot at half damage from G-Elves, then obliterate them near the start of turn two.

Allow me to rephrase my sentence.

No wonder you have no cash to pursue a more aggressive development plan.

Because of the 3000 gold expense? Like you said yourself, the time taken to build them is much more of a concern.

It will be proved to you then. Give me some time.

That you have; Don't stress it.

It's in larger maps where you get more towns. Consider the map Free For All. Surely as the game progresses, you'd have far more resources.

More like artefacts and visiting locations...

[Pacifist]

Just played "All for one" on impossible with Dungeon to try the special of the harpy hags. They allowed to win the fight with the fire elementals without a scratch. Beat blue player on day 8 and tan on day 14 ( I had to run after his last heroes). 4 towns captured, score 446. I'm sure it's possible to win some more days but I was lazy with chaining .

[Bandobras Took]

@Bandobras: Stoneskin - the more defense you have, the better this spell becomes. And yes Fortress heroes would get use of wisdom. The map is not empty yu know.

But surely Loynis' Prayer specialty overrules this? Or is it easier for a Witch to get to expert Earth Magic than a Cleric to get to expert Water Magic?

And even if diplomacy's broken, there's still a Castle hero who starts with it and therefore has to be banned.

[LordScimitar]

Yes, Navigation and Leadearship does suck. Diplomacy is broken. You are not allowed to use it anywhere. Magic heroes suck already, but amongst them, Clerics are the most pathetic. And knights are SURELY the worst might class. They get crappy skill choices and have bad chances to get the right magic.

And these are facts. I won't argue them, sorry.

@Bandobras: Stoneskin - the more defense you have, the better this spell becomes. And yes Fortress heroes would get use of wisdom. The map is not empty yu know.

@Banedon: Having 2 angels is a zillion times better than one. You can do all the shooter fights, for example. You can do all the banks. Both are impossible with only one.

How is having a super Bless or Prayer pathetic? Just tell me that. Especially when both these casters have little difficulty getting expert water magic.

Leadership has its uses. Sometimes its useful. Other times its pointless. "Sucking?" No, I don't think so.

And, Diplomacy is banned, so it sucks. Actually, its so good that its broken, thus making Castle heroes too good. Heck. Let's ban Resurrection Specialists, Gold producing specialists, Logistics specialists, and then declare that Dungeon Heroes suck.

If you mean pure stat distribution then say so.

Oh, and, what about Sir Mulich's speed? Does +2 Speed suck? If you truly believe that, WOW.

So, tell me, do castle heroes truly suck? No, I don't just take your word, because there are legitimate points here you haven't argued against. Oh, and if your answer is "because half the heroes are too good because of +2 speed bonus or having diplomacy and thus being banned" you really need to say so. They suck in tournament play because of too many heroes being banned is legitimate. Sucking because they're too good just doesn't make sense unless you post specifically you can't use them.

[csarmi]

Diplomacy is banned because it's implemented badly in the game (it's much better in h4 and still has some problems). If you play with diplomacy enabled, unless the mapmaker did an extremely good and careful job, it all comes down to pure luck. No skills involved. The one who gets it going sooner wins. Wow, what a great game!

Yes, all these skills ave their uses, but they are bad on main heroes 99% of the times. Meaning you have a much worse chance to get a useful main.

No, +2 speed does not suck and helps a bit in early map clearing... but still Mullich has the same problems as other knights (will most likely get crappy skills) and he actually starts with leadership and advanced of it... Level 3 can well be a nightmare.

Mullich is not that bad, but not amongst the best either.

[Bandobras Took]

And I'd still maintain that Witches are suckier. I haven't heard of anybody banning any of them. At least the Castle doesn't have an Eagle Eye specialist.

[csarmi]

And I'd still maintain that Witches are suckier. I haven't heard of anybody banning any of them. At least the Castle doesn't have an Eagle Eye specialist.

Witches get better magic schools in general. And it's much harder for a cleric to get expert earth than for a witch to get expert water

(that's what really matters)

Yea the castle does not have an eagle eye specialist, but their heroes have a good chance to get skills like that...

[Nucleon]

Nucleon sides with the bullroarer in this one;

Althought both can earn scrappy secondary skills, Witches are much more mediocre fighters than Clerics.

Witches will only have a 20% chance to earn Attack and (more likely) Defense skills, as opposed to 35% for Clerics. A standard lvl9 Witch will have a 0-3-6-6 ADPK skill profile as opposed to a 3-1-5-6 one for a typical Cleric.

Both have easier access to Water magic, and both have Earth as a priority "two" occurence. If Nucleon guesses rightly, csarmi kind of enjoy a combinaton of mass "slow" and shooters. Clerics are more suited for that.

And Clerics have Diplomacy, easily. So that's no match at all, finally.