attention: spoilers about the last mission of the last campaign of TotE
Sorry guys, I had to bring this topic back to life. Perhaps my approach was flawed. All I want to know is... Does Summon Magic plain suck?
Example:
I was playing the last mission (A Flamboyant Exit) of the last campaign of TotE (Flying to the Rescue) on hard. Things were pretty easy with Zehir using both complete Sar Issus and Lion sets.
The problem was, the weeks went by, an Biara got silently stronger in Talonguard. I fought my way through all secondary Inferno castles without breaking a sweat (except for the orcs battle that almost costed me my sanity). Of course, out of stubborness, I never got to read your wonderful walkthroughs (where you mentioned the wicked trick with the 900 cyclops).
Zehir had:
Expert Artificer
Expert Summon Magic Master of Conjuration, Fire Warriors, Banish
Expert Light Magic Master of Wrath, M. of Blessings, M. of Abjuration
Expert Sorcery Magic Insight, Arcane Training, Counterspell
Expert Enlightment Scolar, Intelligence, Arcane Exaltation
Expert Luck Soldiers Luck, Resourcefulness, Magic Resistance
My basic fighting strategy was:
Mass deflect missile, mass haste, mass righteous might, mark of the wizard on battle mages, phantom forces on titan, arcane armor on titan, divine vengeance in anything that gets frisky.
Phoenix for any combat supplement, and Ressurect for any casualties.
....
So, I got to Talonguard with all my forces concentrated on Zehir
His troops were:
102 Shadow Witches for Confusion/Slow casting purposes
97 Black Dragons
97 Untamed Cyclopses
97 Magma Dragons
97 Archangels
58 Storm Titans
682 Gremlin Saboteurs for turret and ballista undermining purposes.
... and I got my ass wiped in such a way you wouldnt believe. Over and over, independent of strategy changes. Urgash's Call + 38 attack rating + mass confusion = ownage.
I got to a point of insanity that I decided to take drastic measures. I took Zehir to a nearby Memory mentor and deleted Summoning Magic with all its extras, trading it for my good old Dark Magic with Master of Mind, Seal of Darkness and Shrug Darkness.
Zehir acts: mass confusion.
Zehir acts: Puppet Master on 102 Archdevils
Archdevil acts: 642 Succubus cease to exist.
Zehir acts: Mass slow
Zehir actts: Mass haste... mass righteous might... divine vengeance
Achdevil acts: well you know what happens.
Mark of the wizard + Ressurection + Ressurection + Ressurection
An inch close to a flawless victory. Almost 0 casualties.
Dark Magic... sweetest thing in heroes.
Summon Magic????
Summon Magic Sucks? -- Case Description
Summon Magic Sucks? -- Case Description
Last edited by Wolfsburg on 31 Jul 2008, 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
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ThunderTitan
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Once i switched to Light Magic to counter her Mass Confusion the fight wasn't all that hard...
Try getting more Titans and not killing off her shooters for good at the start, that way she won't send her troops outside and you can pick them off with the Titans... use your other troops to defend the Titans...
Of course i didn't get Puppet Master in my m.guilds, so that's why i played it like that.
Try getting more Titans and not killing off her shooters for good at the start, that way she won't send her troops outside and you can pick them off with the Titans... use your other troops to defend the Titans...
Of course i didn't get Puppet Master in my m.guilds, so that's why i played it like that.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
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I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti
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Not at all, however it is a matter of timing. Dark is by nature better in epic battles since puppet and frenzy can affect units regardless of their size. Now add the fact that inferno has low defense(I forget about Biara) and you see that it can be very effective.
What does summoning have? Many cool spells but few suitable for such a battle. Arcane armour, blade barrier and especially phantom forces. Phoenix, elementals, firetrap, crystal and the rest will not really affect the outcome, save maybe summon hive.
Similarly dark is crappy during week 2-3 as compared to summoning unless you can get curse of the netherworld.
What does summoning have? Many cool spells but few suitable for such a battle. Arcane armour, blade barrier and especially phantom forces. Phoenix, elementals, firetrap, crystal and the rest will not really affect the outcome, save maybe summon hive.
Similarly dark is crappy during week 2-3 as compared to summoning unless you can get curse of the netherworld.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron
- Metathron
True story. A well built nuking machine will carve out significant chunks out of your army - with 40 spellpower and a decent artifact selection, a Warlock can easily achieve damage in the excess of 6k per implosion smack. Once you throw in a well developed elemental chain in, you will be wiping dealing damage in the 5-digits.
However, a well buffed buff by, light magic, late game army will have almost every stack dealing damage in the 5 digits, as opposed to just your hero.
However, a well buffed buff by, light magic, late game army will have almost every stack dealing damage in the 5 digits, as opposed to just your hero.
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ThunderTitan
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It's not so much that they suck but that Light & Dark are always effective no matter how many creatures you have, while the game is balanced with a medium number of creature in mind.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti
Alt-0128: €
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti
Alt-0128: €
Summoning has the most sucky spells in this game, spells like Fist of Wrath, Earthquake and Summon Elementals.
But there are also some great spells like Firetrap, Wasp Swarm, Summon Hive, Phantom Forces and Summon Phoenix
But there are also some great spells like Firetrap, Wasp Swarm, Summon Hive, Phantom Forces and Summon Phoenix
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.
We cannot be possibly talking about the same "Summon Hive" spell...
I took lvl 32 Zehir with enough spell power to make warlocks blush and this mud cake was killing 2 archdevils per hit. A laughable damage, with slow initiative, that happened to attack only twice before it got squashed, seconds later, in a single blow...
I dont quite see how can that be on the same level as frenzy.
I took lvl 32 Zehir with enough spell power to make warlocks blush and this mud cake was killing 2 archdevils per hit. A laughable damage, with slow initiative, that happened to attack only twice before it got squashed, seconds later, in a single blow...
I dont quite see how can that be on the same level as frenzy.
You don't know the true power of Wasp Swarm and Summon Hive?
The damage they do is pathetic... THAT'S how you considered it?
LOL... it doesn't do only damage, it reduces the ATB value of the target stack by 0.2, 0.4 and 0.6 at Basic, Advanced and Expert masteries. If you don't know what ATB is, I suggest you read the Heroes V Fan-made Manual, it has a lot of interesting in-game mechanic descriptions
The damage they do is pathetic... THAT'S how you considered it?
LOL... it doesn't do only damage, it reduces the ATB value of the target stack by 0.2, 0.4 and 0.6 at Basic, Advanced and Expert masteries. If you don't know what ATB is, I suggest you read the Heroes V Fan-made Manual, it has a lot of interesting in-game mechanic descriptions
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.
Cmon now, no need to offend!Asheera wrote: If you don't know what ATB is, I suggest you read the Heroes V Fan-made Manual, it has a lot of interesting in-game mechanic descriptions
I didnt know about the initiative delay caused by the bees though.
Still doesnt convince me, Asheera, for the hive has a low initiative and health. I really dont see why I'd waste a hero's round with that instead of phantom forces, for instance.
Agreed completely.Elvin wrote:Not at all, however it is a matter of timing. Dark is by nature better in epic battles since puppet and frenzy can affect units regardless of their size. Now add the fact that inferno has low defense(I forget about Biara) and you see that it can be very effective.
What does summoning have? Many cool spells but few suitable for such a battle. Arcane armour, blade barrier and especially phantom forces. Phoenix, elementals, firetrap, crystal and the rest will not really affect the outcome, save maybe summon hive.
Similarly dark is crappy during week 2-3 as compared to summoning unless you can get curse of the netherworld.
If you're playing battles on the scale of the final fight against Biara, Dark and Light magic take precedence while Summoning and Destructive recede into the background. Both Summoning and Destructive still offer some spells (Phantom Forces, Deep Freeze, Arcane Armor, etc) but the large majority of them simply will not help as much as (say) Mass Haste or Mass Confusion.
On the other hand, if you're in a battle involving 50 Crossbowmen each, both Summoning and Destructive Magic will be a lot more powerful than Dark and Light Magic. It's just the way the game works.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.
I see, early to mid game.
But how exactly can I use Summon magic in an effective way, then? Landmines + Swarm? Phantom forces + Hive?
Mass Slow + Confusion still seem to be more convincing... even if we are speaking of early game.
Would you guys care to describe a situation where the usefulness of Summon applies?
But how exactly can I use Summon magic in an effective way, then? Landmines + Swarm? Phantom forces + Hive?
Mass Slow + Confusion still seem to be more convincing... even if we are speaking of early game.
Would you guys care to describe a situation where the usefulness of Summon applies?
Let's see.
Fist of Wrath - sucky spell, I agree, but it's alright against Golems early on.
Firetrap - Now we are talking. 8 mines for 8 mana at Expert Summoning. That's 1 mana per mine. Each mine deals 50 + 10 * Spellpower damage. It's not difficult to achieve 5 spellpower early on. As long as you plan out the neutral monster pathing and don't get completely screwed over on mine placement luck, you can easily have a stack go in 3-4 mines. That's 300-400 damage for 8 mana. That ranged as good-to-better as Eldritch arrow.
Granted this is more difficult to execute and isn't good against fliers/shooters, but it is still an excellent neutral killing power.
Wasp Swarm - it's basically a stun. If you really, really need to stop that target from acting I guess it's worth casting. Personally, I don't like it.
Raise Dead - No need to explain
Arcane Crystal - The big one. If you get this and firetrap, early on, your life for neutraling is gonna become very easy. This handles archers and deals excellent AoE damage. It's better than both Fireball and Circle of Winter for damage, level 3 spells. It stops shooters from, well, shooting. It's only fault is that it doesn't have an artifact scaling it's damage.
AC - 100 + 20*20 Power
FB- 20 + 20*20 Power
CoW - 96 + 12*12 Power
Blade Barrier - Block 3 tiles. This is like 1 unit stack usage, except it costs mana/hero actions instead of units. But it lasts longer.
Earthquake - Whatever
Phantom Forces - Self explanatory, but still - a cheap way to double the damage output of your select stack, as well as distract the A.I.
Summon Elementals - Yeah, too slow to be useful. Basically if you need an extra source of blocking meat or damage, but it's too slow to be reliable for that.
Summon Hive - It attacks the closest unit, and has an initiative formula for 10 + .25 * Power at Expert Summoning. It comes on the battlefield with an ATB value of .5-to1 (means it acts fast). It will essentially stunlock a slower unit until killed - and neutrals aren't very smart at that.
Arcane Shield - Meh. Situational. Isn't bad when you lack other decent spell, but not worth casting over other stuff.
Phoenix - Explanatory.
Basically, though, to use Summon Magic in an effective way, you need to use it in a creative way. It's not straightforward, and it essentially allows you to shape the battlefield and exert limited control over enemy stacks. It's a trade of all jacks, and master of none. It deals a little of what every school does, and does some stuff they can't do. It also relies heavily on terrain - a flat terrain is very unfavorable for Summon Magic, but a if you get lots of doodads it will be devastating.
Naturally, it's highly dependant on getting quality spells to be succesful - personally I consider arcane crystal to be vital as it's just that good.
Firetrap, Arcane Crystal, Blade Barrier, Phantom Forces, Summon Hive, Summon Phoenix are the spells you want from this school. They shine with creative use against A.I.; and are fairly decent against players. They are very versatile spells, and the more of them you have in your spellbook, the more you appreciate their potential.
If you don't get any of these, well, your summong magic slot was relegated into a waste of skillpoints.
Fist of Wrath - sucky spell, I agree, but it's alright against Golems early on.
Firetrap - Now we are talking. 8 mines for 8 mana at Expert Summoning. That's 1 mana per mine. Each mine deals 50 + 10 * Spellpower damage. It's not difficult to achieve 5 spellpower early on. As long as you plan out the neutral monster pathing and don't get completely screwed over on mine placement luck, you can easily have a stack go in 3-4 mines. That's 300-400 damage for 8 mana. That ranged as good-to-better as Eldritch arrow.
Granted this is more difficult to execute and isn't good against fliers/shooters, but it is still an excellent neutral killing power.
Wasp Swarm - it's basically a stun. If you really, really need to stop that target from acting I guess it's worth casting. Personally, I don't like it.
Raise Dead - No need to explain
Arcane Crystal - The big one. If you get this and firetrap, early on, your life for neutraling is gonna become very easy. This handles archers and deals excellent AoE damage. It's better than both Fireball and Circle of Winter for damage, level 3 spells. It stops shooters from, well, shooting. It's only fault is that it doesn't have an artifact scaling it's damage.
AC - 100 + 20*20 Power
FB- 20 + 20*20 Power
CoW - 96 + 12*12 Power
Blade Barrier - Block 3 tiles. This is like 1 unit stack usage, except it costs mana/hero actions instead of units. But it lasts longer.
Earthquake - Whatever
Phantom Forces - Self explanatory, but still - a cheap way to double the damage output of your select stack, as well as distract the A.I.
Summon Elementals - Yeah, too slow to be useful. Basically if you need an extra source of blocking meat or damage, but it's too slow to be reliable for that.
Summon Hive - It attacks the closest unit, and has an initiative formula for 10 + .25 * Power at Expert Summoning. It comes on the battlefield with an ATB value of .5-to1 (means it acts fast). It will essentially stunlock a slower unit until killed - and neutrals aren't very smart at that.
Arcane Shield - Meh. Situational. Isn't bad when you lack other decent spell, but not worth casting over other stuff.
Phoenix - Explanatory.
Basically, though, to use Summon Magic in an effective way, you need to use it in a creative way. It's not straightforward, and it essentially allows you to shape the battlefield and exert limited control over enemy stacks. It's a trade of all jacks, and master of none. It deals a little of what every school does, and does some stuff they can't do. It also relies heavily on terrain - a flat terrain is very unfavorable for Summon Magic, but a if you get lots of doodads it will be devastating.
Naturally, it's highly dependant on getting quality spells to be succesful - personally I consider arcane crystal to be vital as it's just that good.
Firetrap, Arcane Crystal, Blade Barrier, Phantom Forces, Summon Hive, Summon Phoenix are the spells you want from this school. They shine with creative use against A.I.; and are fairly decent against players. They are very versatile spells, and the more of them you have in your spellbook, the more you appreciate their potential.
If you don't get any of these, well, your summong magic slot was relegated into a waste of skillpoints.
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