Look ma!X-ray vision!

[DaemianLucifer]

Well since FoW,retal and heroes on BF have their own threads,it is my oppinion that LoS deserves one as well.

Again were back to the "I can shoot you wherever you are" type of ranged units.Its OK that mages can do this,since their attack is meant to cut through anything,but why crosbowmen?How can a crosbowmen should around a hydra and kill the minos?(yes realism once more,so what?).Also,what is the point of hiding your weak flyers behind your tanks if theyre going to get shoot either way?I know the law,but its not a divine law!It should be broken at least in one feature.This way archers become overpovered again.Especially without ranged retal.And thats another point that needs attention.Why can only succubi retaliate against ranged attacks?It again brings back the bad tactics of hasting your archers so they can kill your enemys archers without fear.And dont tell me that LoS and ranged retal will be hard to implement,since the BF is much more simpler than HIV BF(Its even simpler than HIII BF now),and it would be quite easy to have these features again.

[ThunderTitan]

H4 iz teh Devil and no features that it invented are to be used again as it might bring the Ragnarok!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Well if shooters do have early versions of heat seeking missiles that is a problem and definately needs to be fixed.

However, X ray vision when facing some of the dungeon troops could be...invigorating.

GOW

[DaemianLucifer]

You dont need X-ray vision against dungeon,since there are no clothes to look through anyway

[Sir William S Titan]

I agree that LOS needs to be kept in the BF. That was one of the things added to H4 that should actually be kept.

But I was wondering last night, while playing Heroes, how is it that my army can see through mountains? There's another point of LOS that could be addressed.

[Kristo]

But I was wondering last night, while playing Heroes, how is it that my army can see through mountains? There's another point of LOS that could be addressed.

The same way a Heroes IV hero folds up his horse and puts it in his pocket before battle. Actually, that's something that's never been addressed before in a Heroes game. A hero probably shouldn't be able to see over mountains unless he has flying troops in his army.

[Arzang]

Daemian: I'm with you to 90%. couldn't have said it better myself.

sure the knights, err swordsmen (wow. how interesting that namechange is) can protect their fellow stackfriends with their large shields but I'd rather have line of sight than one unit that creates a substitute for it.

what I disagree with is ranged retaliation. at least if they implement it HIV style. they can't just rip the melee retaliation and apply it to ranged attacks. be it for realism or sheer game play reasons; they just shouldn't do that.

I also think the opposite should be true:

assasins use crossbows, correct? how the hell can they stand behind a stack of large-ass hydra's and use the crossbows properly?

if nival gives an original twist to how ranged attacks are used; I'd wet my pants with joy.

[Corribus]

I like Line of Sight... unfortunately it was impossible to figure out in H4.

[DaemianLucifer]

I like Line of Sight... unfortunately it was impossible to figure out in H4.

Yes,thats the unfortunate problem of that dumb view

[Mutare Drake]

I liked how LoS was realistic, but in H4 it was impossible to work with. If it is improved - easier to understand, perhaps have a toggle-able feature like the movement shadow in H3, where you can see what your archers see - then I'd like it to be in.

[Kristo]

Line-of-sight was realistic if you had projectiles that weren't affected by gravity, e.g., magic. Archers, on the other hand, do not need to actually see their targets. In fact, shots from a longbow are most effective at long range.

[DaemianLucifer]

True.But what about crossbows?And titans lightning?And gremlins bombs?All of them travel in somewhat straight line.

[Corribus]

And here once again we get into the problem of simplicity. Obviously you are not going to be able to pick a single, simple, universally applied rule that is simultaneously universally realistic. If you use line of sight, it's going to be unrealistic for some creatures. If you don't use line of sight, it's going to be unrealistic for other creatures. Designers just need to pick a rule and go with it, instead of being concerned with all sorts of exceptions. When you have to remember 100 exceptions to every rule, you lose strategic elements.

[DaemianLucifer]

But with LoS we could have an Ignore LoS speciallty.It could be given to elves and archers,so they would be even more valuable.And dont go with exceptions simplicity,since we had sooo much different specialls for units in previous heroes,and I bet half of us knows them by hard.Also,how long did it take you to learn the new statistics of units when HIII came out?Heroes are complicated,but fun.Simplifying them means loosing a lot of its charm.

[ramparter]

Totally agree with DaemianLucifer. An ability to ignore LoS is what we need. I also believe that ranged retaliation should return. Makes combat more interesting, you havw to think more carefully before acting.

[Kristo]

And here once again we get into the problem of simplicity. Obviously you are not going to be able to pick a single, simple, universally applied rule that is simultaneously universally realistic. If you use line of sight, it's going to be unrealistic for some creatures. If you don't use line of sight, it's going to be unrealistic for other creatures. Designers just need to pick a rule and go with it, instead of being concerned with all sorts of exceptions. When you have to remember 100 exceptions to every rule, you lose strategic elements.

I mostly agree with that. If you're looking for simplicity, the best way to go is not have LOS rules at all. If you're going to add it in, though, you might as well allow some flexibility. Consider the following options for the "ranged" ability:

1. Long range - most effective at distances greater than half (or some suitable distance) the combat grid. No line of sight problems. Example: Archers.

2. Short range - most effective at short distances. Cannot shoot over any creatures (friendly or otherwise). Examples: Heroes IV Orcs and Centaurs.

3. Any range - full damage everywhere, no LOS problems. Example: Titans.

You can bring back ranged retaliation, but with a caveat. I'd like to see the maximum range set at one square less than the length of the combat grid (Heroes IV grid is a good example). That forces you to step into the line of fire to be able to reach them. This further increases the value of long-ranged creatures, though you'd probably have to lower their hit points for balance purposes.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Kristo

Yes,this sounds nice.Also,each square of distance could affect the damage dealt.And each creature could have its maximum effect range.After that,the damage dealt would decrease.Drastically for shor range units(lets say 10%-20% for each square,depending on BF size),and less steep for long ranged units(5%-10%).

And what was wrong with ranged retal in HIV?What other way would you like it implemented?(of course,attack speed would be the best,but I doubt well ever see it)

[ThunderTitan]

And what was wrong with ranged retal in HIV?What other way would you like it implemented?(of course,attack speed would be the best,but I doubt well ever see it)

No it wouldn't. An Angel would prob still have better speed that a lvl 1/2/3 etc and would have an even bigger advantage.
In H4 the sim retal was annoying because it didn't give any advantage to the attacker, thus taking out the reason to attack.

[Arzang]

No it wouldn't. An Angel would prob still have better speed that a lvl 1/2/3 etc and would have an even bigger advantage.
In H4 the sim retal was annoying because it didn't give any advantage to the attacker, thus taking out the reason to attack.

for starters; you could attack for the purpose of ganging up on someone and stealing retaliation.

um, snake strike?

[ThunderTitan]

Which also works in all cases.