[Crit] Please evaluate the balance in my personal ToE mod.

[tb5841]

1 in speed is very significant when it's the difference between 7 and 8 (hitting in 1 turn).

Just what I was going to say...

[okrane]

1 in speed is very significant when it's the difference between 7 and 8 (hitting in 1 turn).

If that's something Wind can do, then that's something he's supposed to do.

You're contradicting yourself in the same post...

For example, do you bring Wind to a siege?

??? Should I bring war dancers in stead?? Why???

Big changes are generally not good ideas. The stat changes are to soften the blow. Aren't Masters still better for elves with high luck skill?

No.
Small calculation:
a stack of 10 units vs a target with 20 defense.

Master Hunters:
Attack 5: vs Defense 20 => 15 difference => 30% reduction.
Damage: 2 * 5-8 * 10 => 100 - 160
After Reduction: 70% * 100 - 160 = 70 - 112
Average: 91
Eventual Range Penalty: 35 - 56
Average: 45.5

Arcane Archers
Armor Reduced 50%: vs a target with defense 10
Attack 6 vs Defense 10 => 4 difference => 8% reduction
Damage 8-9 * 10: 80 - 90
After Reduction: 92% * 80 - 90 = 73.6 - 82.8
Average: 78

So basically M Hunters are better against low tier creatures only if they are at full range. If the defense of the target creature goes up the stronger Arcane Archers become. In a final battle where heroes have big defense scores, you can imagine the marginal gain of the Arcane Archers(god I hate that name - maybe change it into sharpshooters for god's sake).

About Luck: it changes nothing. With 5 Luck
Master Hunters Deal
25%X (No Lucky hit)+ 50% 1.5X (only one attack is lucky) + 25% 2X(both attacks are lucky) = 150% X
Arcane Archers:
50% X + 50% 2X = 150% X

q.e.d.

Very small change because there's no consensus (at least in this little thread) that Furies are crap. At init 16, Furies are already the fastest things in the game, second only to Phoenix.

well... then no change.
But I still think Sisters are crappy

[tb5841]

Arcane Archers will do more damage - particularly against high-defence heros - but Warding Arrow, with Soldier's Luck, triggers very often due to the two shots and almost compensates for this.

They're not quite balanced, but it's close, and I think the proposed changes to attack/defence/initiative would make them even.

[Mlai]

1 in speed is very significant when it's the difference between 7 and 8 (hitting in 1 turn).

If that's something Wind can do, then that's something he's supposed to do.

You're contradicting yourself in the same post...

LOL yeah, but one has no-retal 3-way fire attack while the other one has 1 normal melee attack. I don't think any stack with a no-retal 3-way fire attack should be allowed to attack on turn #1 without speed artifacts or Tactics.

??? Should I bring war dancers in stead?? Why???

LOL, correct answer is in a siege you bring neither. (Unless you had teleport in which case you'd bring War I guess... all those enemy stacks all bunched up in that little castle space...)

And yeah, I was reading that thread of Master vs Arcane dmg... But having 1 good for early creep and 1 good for late hero fights is not a bad way to internally balance (not the best, but still). Also what tb5 says makes sense.

But I still think Sisters are crappy

Not as crappy as Vampire Princes.

Edit: Thanks all for this discussion! I'll keep updating my mini-mod as long as this thread lives.

[okrane]

I don't think any stack with a no-retal 3-way fire attack should be allowed to attack on turn #1 without speed artifacts or Tactics.

Why? If they made it so, it means they are supposed to do it...

They're not quite balanced, but it's close, and I think the proposed changes to attack/defence/initiative would make them even.

Fair enough.


But as I said: these changes are meant for multiplayer mostly, and I doubt people will start using such a mod.
The solution is to get Nival to listen to these suggestions and make patch... but, we all know better than this, don't we?

[Mlai]

This mini mod is mostly for myself to feel comfortable playing the game. I can't play a game with imba that even I can see; my last fav game was an online RTS and I was a team member of its best balance mod.

So even if nobody else wants this mod it doesn't hurt me. But if there are ppl who'd like it, I'd share it.

Why? If they made it so, it means they are supposed to do it...

It's not internally balanced, though. It makes all the other hounds crap. You got this 1 hound which can hit more ppl than the 2 other hounds combined, AND it can attack on turn 1. So, if it can hit more ppl, then the other hounds should be the faster ones.

That's how the hound is different from the dancers.

I'm thinking I can switch the War DEF 3 <--> Wind DEF 6. But that does lower Wind's max agility DEF so I don't know if I should.

[okrane]

a good balanced mod comes from lots of playing experience..
we taking wild guesses here about what should be balanced it's not really the most proper way to do it

[Dacarnix_]

The only creatures that I consider a true no-brainer are:
Archmage
Crossbowman
Horned Grunt
Wind Dancer
Shieldguard

For many others, I usually prefer one upgrade over the other, but I can think of particular situations where I'd use the less common upgrade. For example, with Soldiers Luck, I'll go with the Master Archers over the Arcane Archers I usually use.

These are the only 5 creatures that I will always choose over their alternate upgrades.

[Mlai]

a good balanced mod comes from lots of playing experience..
we taking wild guesses here about what should be balanced it's not really the most proper way to do it

I've been reading forum balance discussions (here and AoH), so I don't consider everything a wild guess. There are some things that beg to be changed.

The only creatures that I consider a true no-brainer are:
Archmage
Crossbowman
Horned Grunt
Wind Dancer
Shieldguard

I'm not sure about Grunts. I don't change anything (or change much) I don't feel strongly on.

For many others, I usually prefer one upgrade over the other, but I can think of particular situations where I'd use the less common upgrade. For example, with Soldiers Luck, I'll go with the Master Archers over the Arcane Archers I usually use.

Yes when some alternates are great situationally, I don't change anything. If only Necro had a caster stack that has Confusion, I wouldn't change Vamp Prince at all.

Even with my changes of ATT/DEF/INI, Arcanes are still better than Masters, so I didn't destroy that situational strategy. I just made it even smarter to take Masters if you have Soldier's Luck. Right now, Arcanes are so OP, even if you have Soldier's Luck nobody can say you're wrong for picking Arcanes. The damage they can do to high tier stacks are just off the wall. Arcane's Force Arrow has stun-chance as well.

Here's a big follow-up that I'm going to add. Things in parentheses means they're mentioned in earlier posts of this thread.

Haven

Marksman vs X-bowman:
Switch ATT 4<->5
Precise Shot range 3->4

Precise Shot is a godly ability if you can ever use it. Range 3 ensured you never would unless zombies that are slowed tried to catch you, or something ridiculous like that. If Treants were in Haven then maybe he wouldn't need changing.

Sylvan

Sprite:
(Wasp Swarm None->Basic)

Unstoppable Sprite Rush my ass. Wasp Swarm with mastery of None means you just wasted your Sprite's turn even if she's a stack of 1.

Emerald Dragon vs Crystal:
Emerald ATT 31->32
Crystal ATT 30->29
Emerald DMG 33-57 ->33-60
Crystal DMG 30-60 ->30-57

Now, Crystal will be a situational strategy. Easy strategy, but at least it's a bit more situational.

Dungeon

Brisk Raider:
ATT 12->13
DEF 9->8

Raiders need as much ATT as they can get, especially if it has a multi-hit ability (which I mini-buffed earlier). BTW, ppl should already know this - by circling an enemy, a B.Raider can hit an enemy with a drive-by attack and then hit the same enemy for the proper attack.

Red Dragon:
Add= Armoured.

Necropolis

Vampire Prince:
Bring HP back down, 43->40.
(DMG 5-13->4-14)
(INI 11->13)

Soldier's Luck played a factor in my debuff edit. But waiting for 1 hero ability for a non-elf hero is still too situational, so the +2 Init stays.

Inferno

Arch Demon:
Increase Summon Other distance +2.

This should make his ability more desirable; now he can pull in an enemy 8 spaces away. Now with Tactics and a speed +1 artifact, he can pull in an archer on his 1st turn.

Academy

Arch vs Battle Mage:
Switch DEF 10<->9
Switch HP 30<->29
Battle Mage DMG 7-7 -> 7-8
[DELETE]Add to Battle Mage = Aura of Magic Resistance[/DELETE]

Being able to have guards does not make up for being a sucky caster, and that is ALL that "Dampen Magic" does - allow him to have guards. If he's going to be a shooter-over-caster, then his advantages need to be magnified, even a little. Not reduced.

Storm Titan:
ATT 30->27
DEF 30->33
DMG halved
Shots 5->3
Add= Stormstrike
Add= Range Penalty

This is the only wild change. The idea to make the alternate Titan a "vicious melee unit" is too good to pass up. DMG is halved because Stormstrike basically allows you to hit your 1st target twice.

So now, at full range, 1st target gets 1/4 dmg (of a normal un-modded Titan), all connected targets get 1/8 dmg.
At close range shooting, 1st target gets 1/2 dmg, all connected targets get 1/4 dmg.
In melee, 1st target gets full dmg, all connected targets get 1/2 dmg.
So my Storm Titan's best bet is crowded melee, with 3 shots for targets of opportunity.

Fortress

Mountain Guard:
HP 12->14
Defensive Stance ability bonus = DEF 5->7

White Bear-rider:
HP 30->34

Stronghold (visual changes)

Decrease model movement speed for...

T5a_Butcher-arena-move.xdb
T5b_Executioner-arena-move.xdb
T5c_Chieftain-arena-move.xdb
T6a_Wyvern-arena-move.xdb
T6b_PoisonedWyvern-arena-move.xdb
T6c_Paokai-arena-move.xdb
T7a_Cyclopes-arena-move.xdb
T7b_UntamedCyclopes-arena-move.xdb
T7c_BloodedCyclopes-arena-move.xdb

Other visual changes...

(Switch models for Hellmare and Nightmare.)
(Everyone should use Treant mod.)
(Death Knights mod is nice.)
(Beta Grim Raiders mod is nice. I fixed it to include ToE victory and idle animations.)

[tb5841]

I use Horned Overseers sometimes - they work well with Teleport Assault. I never use Battle Mages at the moment, just because I'm not quite sure how they work?

[Mlai]

I never use Battle Mages at the moment, just because I'm not quite sure how they work?

They completely suck. Archmages have the awesome Magic Channeling ability, 2.5x more Mana, more spells, and better spell mastery. And shoots just as well as he does.

The only thing they can do is not hurt friendlies right next to them when they shoot. So basically, the ability to have stacks guard him while he shoots is supposed to make up for the fact that he's a crap caster.

Supposedly he would work in conjunction with Magnetic Golems to protect him from AoE Dest spells or something, nevermind that those Golems can't protect him from targetted Dest spells.

[tb5841]

I see - they're not actually as useless as I was worried they were then. I find Magic Channeling pretty useless, as mana is never an issue for Academy. And once armies reach a certain size, shooting may be a better option than spellcasting most of the time.

Having said that, I still don't think I'll ever use Battle Mages...

[Mlai]

His supposed role of "shooter over caster" would be true if:

-his shots don't damage friendlies at all, not just the ones right next to him.
-he had more raw damage than Archmage. Even 1 point.
-Archmage has sucky spells.

As it turns out, none of the above is true.

But that's why modding is beautiful...

[okrane]

give him some more damage then...

[Mlai]

Hmm... Right, no weird changes (like new ability) should be the rule. *Goes to edit.*