Question about AI Quality

[Jolly Joker]

Yes, it has to miserably fail.
Besides, you are just starting to cheat: Pre-programmed hero development is cheating because the AI would play under different rules than a human.
And it would of course have to play it reasonably safe because the AI is meant to be there. Remember H IV? With the dead AI heroes lying around everywhere? You don't want to play an AI that has managed to build a town, but only half an army because it lost them in liberating the needed mines.
And Quick combat is good, but human combat is better.

[DaemianLucifer]

Besides, you are just starting to cheat: Pre-programmed hero development is cheating because the AI would play under different rules than a human.

So you never play in certain patterns?You never choose the same skill paths when offered the same skills under the same circumstances?Following a pattern is cheating,yet if someone bends the rules and tells you beforehand that he will,thats not cheating?

[ThunderTitan]

Following a pattern is cheating,yet if someone bends the rules and tells you beforehand that he will,thats not cheating?

Instant Classic.

/nominated

[Elvin]

There is no perfect combination of skills, there are variations, which are useful in particular situations. Moreover it will make the AI bloody predictable and boring.

Yes but the AI finds some less than decent combos and very frequently too.It has no planning,it uses no abilities or very rarely.There should be skills to be avoided or desirable according to the hero and faction,not just pick because it got it on the lvl up.

And ask yourself one question:You prefer to play against a dumb player that gets all kinds of advantages or against a better one that plays with less advantages?There is no contest in this.Whatever your choice,what do you think is the most fun?

[Jolly Joker]

Besides, you are just starting to cheat: Pre-programmed hero development is cheating because the AI would play under different rules than a human.

So you never play in certain patterns?You never choose the same skill paths when offered the same skills under the same circumstances?Following a pattern is cheating,yet if someone bends the rules and tells you beforehand that he will,thats not cheating?

You fail to see the point. The cheating is not the pre-programmed pattern, the cheating is GETTING the skill when you want it - which is clearly against the rules the humans play under; as a human you can have a fine plan of skills you may want, but whether you get them is another question. If you allow THAT, you can basically allow hits for every probability-based things: Luck, Morale, Incorporeal, you name it.
Bending the probabilities is playing under different rules and qualifies for sure as cheating as YOU define it. Why change one "cheat" but instead allow another one?

[Jolly Joker]

There is no perfect combination of skills, there are variations, which are useful in particular situations. Moreover it will make the AI bloody predictable and boring.

Yes but the AI finds some less than decent combos and very frequently too.It has no planning,it uses no abilities or very rarely.There should be skills to be avoided or desirable according to the hero and faction,not just pick because it got it on the lvl up.

And ask yourself one question:You prefer to play against a dumb player that gets all kinds of advantages or against a better one that plays with less advantages?There is no contest in this.Whatever your choice,what do you think is the most fun?

Elvin, I have no problem with them trying to make the AI better. However, they won't be able to make them so good they can put away with giving the AI advantages.

[DaemianLucifer]

You fail to see the point
.
.
.
Why change one "cheat" but instead allow another one?

I never said that.Reread me:

Oh come on,you are saying that its imposible to preprogram a dozen hero development paths that the AI would use depending on the offered skills and its close mines and guards?

Elvin, I have no problem with them trying to make the AI better. However, they won't be able to make them so good they can put away with giving the AI advantages.

The key is making an AI thats competitive with a casual player on its own.When experts play,they should choose some handicaps for them/bonuses for the AI,but the AI should be able to provide a decent chalenge to a casual player with the same starting conditions and within the same rules as the player.

[Jolly Joker]

You fail to see the point
.
.
.
Why change one "cheat" but instead allow another one?

I never said that.Reread me:

Oh come on,you are saying that its imposible to preprogram a dozen hero development paths that the AI would use depending on the offered skills and its close mines and guards?

Elvin, I have no problem with them trying to make the AI better. However, they won't be able to make them so good they can put away with giving the AI advantages.

The key is making an AI thats competitive with a casual player on its own.When experts play,they should choose some handicaps for them/bonuses for the AI,but the AI should be able to provide a decent chalenge to a casual player with the same starting conditions and within the same rules as the player.

What would that accomplish?

[Shauku]

There could be a lot improvement on the skills selection, for example they could prioritice certain abilities (like Vitality for Necro, etc.) Also, when they take magic, it should be leveled to advanced/expert, because basic rarely does any good (eceptions like PF are there, but you get the idea)

I do want this improved, as well as the fleeing thing (which doesn't happen). But in essence a competitive Ai is more important to me than a non-cheating one. No one wants to take the first visit to AI territory only to find that they have killed most of its army fighting neutrals. AI must get some bonuses in a game like Heroes, if you want it to give you a challenge. Ofcourse I wouldn't mind the custom option for resourses that Grumpy suggested in one of the threads, more options is usually for the better. Atleast the ones who cant defeat Heroic AI now, could play on Heroic and say they beat it.

And lastly, I am still very impresssed by the Heroes V. I took a few games of 3, and I must say that a lot has gone to the better in Heroes V. Add here that it was Nivals first Heroes, good job, overall. And looking at the reviews, it has some exellent scores for a turn-based game. (I had not read any other reviews than GameSpots before..)

I know people have the assumption that when you say something good, the developers will stop working on the game. Though it's funny that the same people belive the devs couldn't care less about the opinions of the fans... go figure...

[Elvin]

Elvin, I have no problem with them trying to make the AI better. However, they won't be able to make them so good they can put away with giving the AI advantages.

I never said you didn't.My wish is that they tone down the advantages not do away with them,that would be unrealistic and would make things worse.A simultaneous increase in AI ability and decrease in its advantages could only be for the best.

[winterfate]

Daemian Lucifer wrote:

The key is making an AI thats competitive with a casual player on its own.When experts play,they should choose some handicaps for them/bonuses for the AI,but the AI should be able to provide a decent chalenge to a casual player with the same starting conditions and within the same rules as the player.

Jolly Joker wrote:

What would that accomplish?

What kind of a question is that Jolly Joker?

That would accomplish many things, the most important one being that people of all skill levels can enjoy the game (the rookies can play easier AI's, the better players can play the stronger AI's; and in both cases, the players can balance out bonuses/penalties.)

[Gaidal Cain]

You fail to see the point. The cheating is not the pre-programmed pattern, the cheating is GETTING the skill when you want it - which is clearly against the rules the humans play under; as a human you can have a fine plan of skills you may want, but whether you get them is another question.

I, for one, would vastly prefer an AI that cheated abit in that area to one that has to have huge resource bonuses. For the same reason, I wouldn't have a problem if the AI could see beforehand the amount of creatures in a wandering stack and the results of a quick combat. Both would be approximations of what one could expect from a skilled player with access to reloading and a bit of luck on his side, which I think is what the AI should try to emulate as much as possible. On lower difficulties, it could get a bit worse intel and stuff, but I think that the key principle of a good AI - much as a good interface - is that you shouldn't be reminded that that is what it is. If it gets too tough in the process, come up with ways to hamper it abilities. I've yet seen someone complain about an AI being too smart though.

[ThunderTitan]

However, they won't be able to make them so good they can put away with giving the AI advantages.

Haven't we already been here?! That's what dif lvls are for.

[Jolly Joker]

Well, it's not that I would disagree - they can make whatever they want to make the game interesting.
However, as I've said long ago for me it makes no sense to even try to create the impression of another human playing against you. If you want to play against a human (and have a REAL challenge), do just that.
The AI is just a mechanism. I couldn't care less whether it's "smart" without cheats (which means that it is possible to play the game in a very mechanical way with good results which I wouldn't like) or whether it's all aboout mass and the weight of numbers.
For me they way the AI is now is completely believable. If I play against the AI I play against some really rich and really dumb evil fraggers which is essentially what you get dished out when looking a movie or reading a book. Complaints about the AI should wipe the floor with you? Look a movie. Hero defeated, but instead of simply killing him the evil side just starts explaining things in detail and simply NOT wipe the floor.
They could make it harder. Allowing two builds a day, for example.
However, there is no real reason to actually try to make the AI play like a human except that the players may have nore fun beating the AI when they can imagine "it is really good". However, beating an AI is always something that has no worth as long as the AI actually is not able to LEARN and ADAPT.

[DaemianLucifer]

However, as I've said long ago for me it makes no sense to even try to create the impression of another human playing against you. If you want to play against a human (and have a REAL challenge), do just that.

Thats assuming that multiplayer is perfectly implemented and that your opponent wont spend 10 minutes for each turn while you sit there doing nothing.

The AI is just a mechanism. I couldn't care less whether it's "smart" without cheats (which means that it is possible to play the game in a very mechanical way with good results which I wouldn't like) or whether it's all aboout mass and the weight of numbers.

And here I thought the point of AI was to emulate a human opponent as well as its possible so that you can better your skills.Whats the point if you perfect certain tactics against the AI if you can never use them against a human later?

[Jolly Joker]

And here I thought the point of AI was to emulate a human opponent as well as its possible so that you can better your skills.Whats the point if you perfect certain tactics against the AI if you can never use them against a human later?

If you ever played against another human in any Heroes game you really should know that this is simply not the case.

[DaemianLucifer]

If you ever played against another human in any Heroes game you really should know that this is simply not the case.

Yet even knowing that,you wonder why I dont like it.

[Jolly Joker]

It's silly to expect it could be different. There is simply no way to emulate playing against a friend, losing, and getting an explanation what he did to win - and vice versa.

[Mytical]

Everybody still on this topic huh? Well I say to to each their own. If some people like to fight a ai that relies on extra creatures, dumb luck, and endless resources fine. If you like to fight intelligent AI who chooses better skills, fights more intelligently (without cheating to never loose a creature), and challenges you that is ok also. I think a customizable difficulty level would be the best solution proposed yet.

1st you can get as basic as setting resources and AI behavior (something like explorer, conquerer, diplomat, builder, ect). Or you can get into more debth and even preset your AI's skill path, starting town level, starting resources, ect. It would have to be a pretty thourough customization level but shouldn't be too extreamly hard. This would could give you a challenge easier then easy or near impossible. (the ai starts out with a fully developed town, 5x your resources, and their skills selections would be prime). This is a way everybody would be satisfied..oh and a way to turn off the cheap building/creatures ability would be a must (or leave it on if you prefer).

[DaemianLucifer]

It's silly to expect it could be different. There is simply no way to emulate playing against a friend, losing, and getting an explanation what he did to win - and vice versa.

Who said anything about an explanation?I was talking about AIs "inteligence".After all,it is called artificial inteligence.And please stop with the "Its impossible" comments.It was impossible for a man to fly 100 years ago,yet now we even go to outer space.