Spells

[DaemianLucifer]

Im not sure Ive read it,or heard it anywhere,but it just seems obvious,doesnt it?I mean if we do have just 40 spells,and they dont get massed at expert,than wed have at least 10 spells that are useles later(bles,heal,cure,slow,etc)

But,then again,this is ubisoft,and we might have 3 spells/page no matter the oppinion,so....

Oh dear god in heaven!I know I have never believed in you!And,in more than one occasion,I have blasphemed!But please,make my fears in vain!Open their eyes to the obvious at least in this one course of events!Amin!

[theLuckyDragon]

But,then again,this is ubisoft,and we might have 3 spells/page no matter the oppinion,so....

Did I miss anything? Are we supposed to expect the worst (or close to it) from Ubisoft? Let's just be a bit more optimistic, I say!

And they must think the same way you do on this: from a certain moment, some spells are simply useless if they're not mass spells. It's obvious, I think.

[DaemianLucifer]

As is 6 spells/page

Well,I found out that its better to expect the worst,and then be relieved when its not as bad as youve expected,than to be optimistic and get disappointed latter.

[theLuckyDragon]

Yes, that is something... I've found out that it's also useful to expect the best, but prepare for the worst. That is, think optimistically, but act pessimistically.

Why not as many spells per page as there were in Heroes 4?

[Mutare Drake]

Did I miss anything? Are we supposed to expect the worst (or close to it) from Ubisoft? Let's just be a bit more optimistic, I say!

Thank you!

Anyhows, rather than lambasting developers and all, let's hope that if we are getting only 40 spells and only 2-3 per page, that there's a good reason behind it.

[DaemianLucifer]

Yes, that is something... I've found out that it's also useful to expect the best, but prepare for the worst. That is, think optimistically, but act pessimistically.

Its called being realistic.

Why not as many spells per page as there were in Heroes 4?

Well,you must admit that,while the basic system for spells in HIV was excelent,most spells were useless.

Anyhows, rather than lambasting developers and all, let's hope that if we are getting only 40 spells and only 2-3 per page, that there's a good reason behind it.

Do laziness and error in judgement count as a good excuses?

[Gaidal Cain]

Well,you must admit that,while the basic system for spells in HIV was excelent,most spells were useless.

I'll challenge that and say that, Nature Magic excepted, H4 had a much lower percentage of useless spells than H3.

[DaemianLucifer]

Ok,but look at chaos:magic arrow being completely pushed out by firebolt,being completely pushed out by lightning.(implosion and disentegrate could substitute lightning if they were just a bit stronger,or less costly).Fire ring is useful in so few situations(or you could say that fireball is the one being used much less than this one).And,all of DD spells become useless later when boons and curses become the only thing worth casting(especially mass ones).

And yes,quicksand does have some use now,but I believe Ive never used it against a living player.And all of the summons are almost useless,except the 5th level ones(Ive never summoned a single ellemental in my life.Just pixies,wolves(rarely),leprechauns and satyr in the start,and waspworts,unicorns and gryphons later,and all of them are replaced by mantas and phoenixes(and occasionally farie dragons)).

Likewise,illusion and animate dead become completely replaced.Also,whats the point of raising skelletons or ghosts,when you can animate,lets say cyclops?Poison is almost useless,except against AI,or a long battle(and still it is replaced by poisonous effects).

Of course,Im just talking about original HIV,not equilibris.

[Gaidal Cain]

Ok,but look at chaos:magic arrow being completely pushed out by firebolt,being completely pushed out by lightning.(implosion and disentegrate could substitute lightning if they were just a bit stronger,or less costly).Fire ring is useful in so few situations(or you could say that fireball is the one being used much less than this one).And,all of DD spells become useless later when boons and curses become the only thing worth casting(especially mass ones).

But that's not the same as it being a "useless" spell. That's being a spell of circumstancial use, which is very different.

And all of the summons are almost useless,except the 5th level ones(Ive never summoned a single ellemental in my life.Just pixies,wolves(rarely),leprechauns and satyr in the start,and waspworts,unicorns and gryphons later,and all of them are replaced by mantas and phoenixes(and occasionally farie dragons)).

Most lovlevel summons are useless (except for retal steals), I'll give you that. Elementals can be very useful though...

Also,whats the point of raising skelletons or ghosts,when you can animate,lets say cyclops?Poison is almost useless,except against AI,or a long battle(and still it is replaced by poisonous effects).

Ghosts have a clear use: ageing opponents. And excepting the AI is a rather big limitation when it comes to usefulness, considering most battles are fought against the AI.

[DaemianLucifer]

But its more obvious to make just one DD spell and one area DD spell,and make them increase drastically by level and expertiese of the apropriate skill(at least thats how I stuffed the fabled magics from D&D into just 20 something spells,and still had 90% of them covered with some custom rules).Thats why I find that 40 is high enough number of spells for the new heroes game(providing they are thoroughly thought trough and developed).

[ThunderTitan]

But its more obvious to make just one DD spell and one area DD spell,and make them increase drastically by level and expertiese of the apropriate skill(at least thats how I stuffed the fabled magics from D&D into just 20 something spells,and still had 90% of them covered with some custom rules).Thats why I find that 40 is high enough number of spells for the new heroes game(providing they are thoroughly thought trough and developed).

Yeah but the ideea in H4 was that Magic Arrow used less mana, and would be used to kill weak creatures for which lighning would be overkill. Same for blesses and curses, if you only had a 1 hero army why waste all that mana when less would suffice. And Raise Undead spells only raise how many creatures were killed, so using less mana could raise the same amout of creature. Illusions is the same, why waste mana for 10 Titans when 5 would be enough?

[DaemianLucifer]

Yes,but its much more logical to have,for example,one skill that reduces mana cost,and one that boost of all your spells.So,either youll choose to have your fireball consume 4 instead of 5 spellpoints,or boost its damage from 10*level to 11*level and its area of effect from 3 to four squares.(this is in terms of HIV skill system,of course)

[Sir Charles]

This is similar to what I thought they were going to do with the h5 spell system. Since they said only 40 spells I started thinking along the lines of having a fire-based damaging spell....maybe called fire bolt. If you've got the appropriate skill...that one spell will alter. With no skill it acts like magic arrow, at basic it gains some damage and becomes like fire bolt of old, at advanced it gains some splash damage like fireball, and at expert level it gains damage, larger spash range and maybe some other effect. So in effect that ONE spell is like 4 spells from h3 combined into one.

Let's look at Bless for example. Without the skill, bless adds some additional damage to your attack (like a bloodlust or precision). Not maximum, but some. At basic it makes one unit deal max damage(like old bless). At advanced it makes all your units deal max damage (like old mass bless). At expert it combines the prayer bonuses to all your units in addition to the max damage + hero level to all units.

You get my point. There were tons of spells that h3 and h4 had that were somewhat related that could easily be merged into one comprehensive spell that morphs due to skills/abilities. If it's anything like this...40 is MORE than enough.

[Thelonious]

Yes, than 40 is more than enough. And it's not a bad system, but the things is, you'll have all spells in the beginning - and then you don't have to look for any other spell anymore. That could make campaigns duller, even with all the spells of HoMM IV mageguilds were useless after the 3rd map or so...

[Qurqirish Dragon]

Yes, than 40 is more than enough. And it's not a bad system, but the things is, you'll have all spells in the beginning - and then you don't have to look for any other spell anymore. That could make campaigns duller, even with all the spells of HoMM IV mageguilds were useless after the 3rd map or so...

I wouldn't go that far. Even if we assume a heroes-3 type guild (not having played 4, I cannot use that for a basis), a fully-built guild would only have 15 spells. So you need 3 full guilds to have 45 spells available- and that is only 3 5th levels. If each of the schools have even 2 top-level spells, you would need 8 guilds to get all of them. In campaigns, you might get all of them, but this is always the case. If you want so many spells that in a 4-map campaign you still are missing some, then you either need 200+ spells (which I think is unmanageable), or you need to be able to restrict the availability in the map design (which you could in 3)

I think 40 spells should be enough. In heroes 3, I only used a very small set of the spells provided. Of course, if I didn't get any of my usual set, I would try to work with what I did get.
The point is that it is easy to make a long list of spells, but too many situational spells (such as Remove Obstacle) makes the system cumbersome. Too few makes the system redundant. Thus, fewer spells, with skill-based modifications is probably better than a lot of them.

[DaemianLucifer]

Not at all.You just have to change the mage guild.Either make it more expensive and harder to get,or make the spell researchable.For example:Each level of guild gives you a 10% each weak that a new spell will be researched,up to the maximum of 2 per level of guild.So,if the guld is limited to level five,youl have 50% each weak to get a new spell,up to the maximum of 10 spells.Unfortunatelly though,this idea is too original,and surely will never be implemented.

[ThunderTitan]

Yes,but its much more logical to have,for example,one skill that reduces mana cost,and one that boost of all your spells.So,either youll choose to have your fireball consume 4 instead of 5 spellpoints,or boost its damage from 10*level to 11*level and its area of effect from 3 to four squares.(this is in terms of HIV skill system,of course)

No it isn't! It's more space eficient, but what about fire and cold resistant/immune creatures? The best way to make the spells more useful is to have creatures that are lightning res/immune in the game. That way lighning would not be an all purpose spell!

[DaemianLucifer]

Yes,but thats why you make different spell types.For example chaos would have magic arrow(damage type magic,magic resistance decreases its effectivness)and firebolt(damage type fire,magic resistance has no effect,but fire resistance decreases its effectivness),while order would have magic fist(damage type physical,magic resistance has no effect,but defense decreases its effectivness)and ice bolt(damage type cold,magic resistance has no effect,but cold resistance decreases its effectivness).At least thats the type of spells I use in PnP RPGs.

[ThunderTitan]

Yes,but thats why you make different spell types.For example chaos would have magic arrow(damage type magic,magic resistance decreases its effectivness)and firebolt(damage type fire,magic resistance has no effect,but fire resistance decreases its effectivness),while order would have magic fist(damage type physical,magic resistance has no effect,but defense decreases its effectivness)and ice bolt(damage type cold,magic resistance has no effect,but cold resistance decreases its effectivness).At least thats the type of spells I use in PnP RPGs.

Chaos still needs lightning! It could work by having one single target and one area effect spell for cold, fire, lightning and magic. Having a skill that makes a spell from single target to area effect would be annoying in that once you get it it would limit your choices.

[ThunderTitan]

http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/he ... view.shtml

Destructive Magic... I'm guessing that is the missing damage school! There is also mention of a Nature Magic school. I wonder what that one does.