I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Corelanis]

I had a much longer post though out then I figured out what Banedon was talking about. I think hes basing his "classes" on what the primary objective for the unit is so for furies is staying away from damage. But anyway does anyone know the formula for the sacrifacial pit? Like how much xp worth you have to sacrifice to get an increase?

[DaemianLucifer]

By that same standard then almost all of the units (maybe upgraded tier 5 and up as exceptions) would be finesse not killer.

Exactly the point I am pressing.You have to do a lot of manouvering and planing with your paladins as well,yet they arent finesse.You have to do a lot of splitting and carefull planing with druids(and other casters),yet they are killers as well,not finesse.

[Mytical]

But anyway does anyone know the formula for the sacrifacial pit? Like how much xp worth you have to sacrifice to get an increase?

I think it starts out at like 100hp and escalates from there. (Not sure of to be honest). All I do know is it is cumulative. Starts out sort of low, but quickly gets insane.

[Corelanis]

You moving your paladins to get more damage your moving your blood furies to aviod it. I think thats the point hes trying to make. Cant argue agaisnt the druids though. Thanks.

[DaemianLucifer]

But anyway does anyone know the formula for the sacrifacial pit? Like how much xp worth you have to sacrifice to get an increase?

It is in the manual:

Furries:
300*2n-1

Minotaurs:
1200*3n-1

Where n is the number of creatures to be added to the basic growth,and the formula represents the hitpoints needed.

[Corelanis]

Thank you boy do I feel like an @ss I really should have checked there better.

[Mytical]

so to get 1 fury/week it would take 599 hp? Dang didn't know that. That's a lot of hp. How many hp does an upgraded fury have again..trying to calculate how many weeks it would take to make this up for just 1. No wonder why 100 dragons didn't do anything eventually.

[DaemianLucifer]

What?Oh sorry,thats not right.It didnt paste well there.Heres the manual retyping:

300*2^(1-n) for furries and 1200*3^(n-1) for minos.So you need 300 for first furry,600 for the second,1200 for third,etc.

[Mytical]

Ok thanks for the info . Wonder why they just didn't simplify it and put it as 300*n? Where n is the number of creatures in total that will be added. So the first would still be 300, the second 600, ect? Would be much easier for people to figure out . Guess that is too much to ask.

[Banedon]

Now if this was the case with the furries,the demons wouldnt have the opportunity to strike them.If they possed less threat then the others(say meteor shower at matriarchs and hydras),and devils aimed at dragons,furries would still deal the same damage,enough damage to again kill a single devil or two lords.

Call the furries whatever you want,but you must spend your killers to dispose of them,you cannot do it with just your fodder like in the case of paladins.As for hunters,there will be very few situation where they wont be the priority target.

Are you again arguing that Blood Furies stay alive because they are out of range? I thought you'd abandoned this tack, but it looks like you have not. Well then I'll invoke the same example. Give me any race and I'll kill all your Blood Furies before they move three times. The reason why the Blood Furies stay alive is because they are not targetted, not because they are out of range or anything.

You cannot dispose of Paladins with your fodder, either. What're the cannon fodder creatures for Inferno? Horned Overseers (here I'm moving Familiars to Killers by wimfrit's argument)? The only fodder I can think of that can actually kill the Paladins is the Deep Hydras. That's because they're not really fodder, but there's no better place to put them.

Yes,anyone can kill them,but they wont have the creatures to do so.All the other creatures will be tied up doing something else(reppeling raiders,dragons and such),thus you wont have troops to spare to attack the furries.

That's because the player controlling them views doing those 'something else' as more important - in this case, the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons are the more dangerous creatures, and thus more of a killer than the Blood Furies will ever be.

Ill ask you again:Supported by what?I support them with range troops and my hero,sure,but whos there beside them?The best support for paladins,imo,are your archangels.

The Marksmen. The Inquistors. The Imperial Griffins (who are also there beside them). The Archangels if they are present.

Then why did you say "I can kill your furries before they act three times,even if I loose my whole army",even if you would never do that?The only thing that irks me is that you are using double standards.You can use such examples but I cant?

That example was meant to prove that the Blood Furies stay alive because they are not targetted, at which it succeeds very well. What was your example meant to prove?

Reread me again.I already explained to you that 3 weeks for me is 3 weeks without castles.I couldve also said three standard growths,couldnt I?But that sounds a bit crappy to me,so I used three weeks onsted.At week 5 youll have cca 15 or so weeks,wouldnt you?But you are taking it ot of conext.I never did say that master hunters arent killers,just that a weak warlock that has no artifacts and just 10 spell power can kill 3 weeks of master hunters with a single spell.Even further,if he uses lightning,hell incapacitate them untill hes next turn(because he has sorcery).Even further,if he has chain lightning,even more of your troops will suffer.True,hunters are killers,but warlock can incapacitate them with ease.That doesnt mean other races can though.

You would have done better to say 'two weeks with castle growth'. I won't bring up points like your Warlock not having enough mana to keep casting these spells because it'll result in a full-fledged Sylvan vs. Dungeon debate, of which I certainly want to avoid.

If you agree Master Hunters are killers, why even bring up this point in the first place?

Magical immunity either wont work at all(like adicto said),or it will only half the damage(which sound the most logical because thats how blacks natural immunity works).Did you ever have griffins ressistance trigger when you attack them with a warlock?Even though they receive small damage,they still get stunned.

I don't know who adicto is and given your previous history of 50 Blood Furies killing 4-6 Paladins in a hit, I will have to ask for a second opinion. Does anyone know how Magical Immunity works against Warlocks?

Um,cerberi dont block the furries at all.They are a small creature.Bypassing them is no problem(and they still wonder why I hate these large squares)

I'm not clear what the exact formula is, but moving in diagonals certainl cost more than moving in straight lines.

And gating can cost you another attack at full force of my furries,depending on the initial placement on the ATB bar.

Of course, you said it'd be lucky for me if the Blood Furies were directly opposite the Cerberi. If that's the case I might as well just charge and not Gate.

And you are ignoring my point here.And I already answered your question about the paladins.Multiple times.

I've not mentioned anything about Paladins in what you quoted, and I don't see how I've ignored your point. Just don't fight the seige battle in the first place. Few, if any, serious seige battles in Human vs. Human games.

Slow killers=/=melee units.

What are they then, units that kill slowly?

Yes,killing a level 7 unit every action is not critical at all

Obviously not. If they were even killing one level 7 unit with every action they'd be getting targetted, and even if they were the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons would be killing more than one level 7 unit with every action and thus warrant even faster attention.

And can specters kill a level 7 unit whenever they attack?And how many of them do you need to acomplish this?

And Blood Furies can kill a level 7 unit whenever they attack? Just how many do you need to accomplish this?

Yes but that battle dive will most probably be aimed at fiends,which wouldnt be able to avoid it anyway.

So the Paladins are supported after all, since the Pit Lords just got hit by Battle Dive.

No,you move your paladins when the griffins are in the sky.

Then the Paladins take half damage from the already weak single-target Succubi Mistresses. So what's your original point about?

Apology for what?Proof of what?

Apology for misleading any other player who may be playing The Cultists, and proof that you can hold both castles, you can leave Shadya outside the ore pits without getting hit, that you can win the map with as much ease as your posts convey.

Sprites yes,assassins are finese,as are familiars.Gremlins are supporters.Peasants are pure fodder.And skelies are killers only because of the number,but you may classify them as fodder if you want.

What makes Assassins and Master Gremlins non-killers? They are killing in the first few turns.

I did try it long before you,and I beat it long before you.When you play academy,then you may preach me all you want,but not before that.Stop being so all mighty and above others,and come back to the ground you sinfull mortal

Exactly. You tried it long before I did and you beat it long before I did. Which means you are unlikely to remember as much as I did, and besides you aren't playing the same map as I am. I've actually played Academy before as well, just not a lot, so I'm not preaching much if at all.

The link's working, I just managed to open it.

Hmmm...The growth of druids:4,the growth of hunters:7,difference in weeks between 400 hunters and druids:0.Besides,you are (again) missing the point.Something you are so fond acusing others of.

Hence it takes 25 weeks without castle growth to have 100 Druid Elders. In those same 25 weeks you get 7 * 25 = 175. Far, far below 400. You are the one missing the point DaemianLucifer.

And what is your point actually?That griffins support paladins in melee because they are killing fiends that already retaliated to the paladins?Archers and inquisitors are supporting the paladins,and so are angels,your hero and ballista.They all are supporting paladins,that is correct,but none of them is a melee supporter.None of them takes the damage that is aimed towards the paladins.They receive the full force of your enemies army.Thats why they are usuported in melee.

Yes. They are supporting the Paladins in melee because they are killing Pit Lords that have already retaliated. It doesn't take much to see that. The first point is that the Paladins should not charge the Pit Lords first since it'd incur extreme retaliation damage. The second is that the following Paladin attack would be much less retaliated against. The third is that the Pit Lords would be less able to strike back against the Paladins when their turn comes.

Yes Paladins receive the full force of your opponent's army, but they are not unsupported in melee.

Did you even read the quote I told you to read?Where did I say they are anything but killers?Yet you complain about me putting words in your mouth,when for over three days you are telling me how I am saying master hunters arent killers,even though I wrote "Master hunters are killers,no question about it"

Your words were 'I never did say that master hunters are killers,so why would I want to do this?'. I searched through four pages of posts and couldn't find your quote.

Yes they will,but behind the gated units.You use gated units to take the full hit,then you go in with your real units to slaughter.

And so the commander in charge of the Sylvan force inexplicably decides to shoot the Gated units instead.

What the hell are you babling about?I said haven using only archers against sylvan and never charging is a situation I dont see happening ever.Honestly,your attention is quite weak,and so are your comprehension skills.No wonder we are tugging this for days when you dont see anything around the single sentence you are quoting.

OK, I did miss that you said the situation is one which you cannot believe in yourself. That means the Master Hunters will be getting shots in at full damage and they are killers and your original argument that Master Hunters are not killers because they deal the same damage as Blood Furies at half range is wrong.

Funny,yet Im sure you are going to dispute the fact that sprites can be called killers because in the begining they are uncontested against neutrals.You were the one saying that situational use of a creature doesnt change its classification,not me.

What do you mean by 'uncontested'?

I'll just say that Deep Hydras do not fit under my original classification with ease. They are not killers, they are not supporters, they are not finesse and they are not cannon fodder. They are something else. But given only these four choices you would have to put them under cannon fodder. Where else can you put them?

Simple,I didnt do the math in the begining.

And then you did your math so you kill 4-6 Paladins. Then you did more math and killed only 3. Then your math was so grossly inaccurate that increasing the numbers of Blood Furies by almost 100% results in kills that number less than what you calculated. How can that be possible?

Yet you consider hydras fodder just because they can be used like that aginst neutrals,yet furries that can be used like killers against neutrals are finesse because of their actions in a hero battle.Funny.

Blood Furies are finesse against neutrals. They're also finesse against another hero. What is your point exactly? Finesse units can kill as well. They are not bound to 'not killing'. If a unit is patently incapable of killing, it would be labelled 'cannon fodder'.

[DaemianLucifer]

Are you again arguing that Blood Furies stay alive because they are out of range? I thought you'd abandoned this tack, but it looks like you have not. Well then I'll invoke the same example. Give me any race and I'll kill all your Blood Furies before they move three times. The reason why the Blood Furies stay alive is because they are not targetted, not because they are out of range or anything.

The units that can reach furries are bussy doing something else.The ones that you can spare,cant reach the furries.Simple as that.

You cannot dispose of Paladins with your fodder, either. What're the cannon fodder creatures for Inferno? Horned Overseers (here I'm moving Familiars to Killers by wimfrit's argument)? The only fodder I can think of that can actually kill the Paladins is the Deep Hydras. That's because they're not really fodder, but there's no better place to put them.

Familiars and demons can kill up to cca 5 of your paladins in a hit.Depending mostly on luck.

That's because the player controlling them views doing those 'something else' as more important - in this case, the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons are the more dangerous creatures, and thus more of a killer than the Blood Furies will ever be.

Yes,well see thats what I meant way back when I said that the beauty of HV is to make all units as equally important and that dungeon is as close to that as possible.No matter what you attack,the rest is just as dangerous.With the hero presenting the biggest threat.

The Marksmen. The Inquistors. The Imperial Griffins (who are also there beside them). The Archangels if they are present.

See when I first pulled this in I asked wholl support them in melee?Meaning wholl share the pain with them.I never disputed that inquisitors,marksmen,your hero and balista will support them,but there is no one to share the pain with them,thus they die first.You said thats not true because griffins will be there.I ask you again,where will the griffins be so that theyll take the hit?

That example was meant to prove that the Blood Furies stay alive because they are not targetted, at which it succeeds very well. What was your example meant to prove?

That griffins wont share the pain with the paladins like you said they will.

You would have done better to say 'two weeks with castle growth'. I won't bring up points like your Warlock not having enough mana to keep casting these spells because it'll result in a full-fledged Sylvan vs. Dungeon debate, of which I certainly want to avoid.

No,it wouldnt be better because its not two weeks with the castle growth but one and a half.I decided to use the lowest common denominator in here,not the highest one.

If you agree Master Hunters are killers, why even bring up this point in the first place?

Beats me.I just told you that even though they are killers,a hero can still incapacitate them.You pressed on it because I said three weeks instead of one and a half growth with a full castle.

I don't know who adicto is and given your previous history of 50 Blood Furies killing 4-6 Paladins in a hit, I will have to ask for a second opinion. Does anyone know how Magical Immunity works against Warlocks?

I gave you a link,and I will repeat it.It wasnt something I said,but something adicto said.

I'm not clear what the exact formula is, but moving in diagonals certainl cost more than moving in straight lines.

They do cost half more,true.But with tactics,my furries are on the third square,thus they can hit your front lines even if you place cerberi in front of them.They wont be able to reach only the last line,but they wouldnt be able to do that anyways,because of your large creatures.

Of course, you said it'd be lucky for me if the Blood Furies were directly opposite the Cerberi. If that's the case I might as well just charge and not Gate.

Yes,and thats a specific example that doesnt happen very often.More often youll have to either sacrifize your nightmares to incapacitate your furries,or let them wreack havoc in your lines.

I've not mentioned anything about Paladins in what you quoted, and I don't see how I've ignored your point. Just don't fight the seige battle in the first place. Few, if any, serious seige battles in Human vs. Human games.

True,but that still doesnt mean that it wont happen.And the only thing Ill give you is that dragons are extremelly more usefull than furries in sieges.As for the rest of the battles,they are the same(unless in late games).So I asked you how you are going to support your dragons in a siege,the only place where furries cannot compare to them?

What are they then, units that kill slowly?

No,they are killers,that stands.But they are slow killers because they wont have the chance to act as often,are being targeted first almost every time,and almost every time they die before they even act.

Obviously not. If they were even killing one level 7 unit with every action they'd be getting targetted, and even if they were the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons would be killing more than one level 7 unit with every action and thus warrant even faster attention.

See,there goes again my point about dungeon being the best balanced town creature wise.

And Blood Furies can kill a level 7 unit whenever they attack? Just how many do you need to accomplish this?

Between 50(the best case against shadows)and 154(the worst case against magmas),without counting luck and hero abilities(like frenzy,for example).

So the Paladins are supported after all, since the Pit Lords just got hit by Battle Dive.

Yes,but my point that no one is there to share the load still stands.They are alone in melee,you never proved otherwise.

Apology for misleading any other player who may be playing The Cultists, and proof that you can hold both castles, you can leave Shadya outside the ore pits without getting hit, that you can win the map with as much ease as your posts convey.

Just because AI acted in a certain way for you doesnt mean like it will for others.No,I wont apologize because I am still saying that you can hold both castles with an optimum build.

What makes Assassins and Master Gremlins non-killers? They are killing in the first few turns.

Assassins dont kill on their first turn,its their poison that kills.Thus finesse.Gremlins do half damage to creatures out of their range,and arent in high numbers like skeletons to compensate for that.

The link's working, I just managed to open it.

I managed to go there now.I dont see your point.I never said I was the best.But that doesnt mean I dont see my mistakes,nor how the game would play if I didnt make them,or when someone better than me would play it.

Hence it takes 25 weeks without castle growth to have 100 Druid Elders. In those same 25 weeks you get 7 * 25 = 175. Far, far below 400. You are the one missing the point DaemianLucifer.

No,I am the one missing reason.Luckilly none of my teachers comes here.I can say only *doh*!

Yes Paladins receive the full force of your opponent's army, but they are not unsupported in melee.

Yet you said griffins will be there to receive some of the force of the enemy army.

Your words were 'I never did say that master hunters are killers,so why would I want to do this?'. I searched through four pages of posts and couldn't find your quote.

For this I am going to apologise because it shouldve been "they arent",not "they are".I honestly dont know how I missed that typo for this long,and I apologise for that.

And so the commander in charge of the Sylvan force inexplicably decides to shoot the Gated units instead.

Your point was that sylvan will do full damage to the enemy because it has to charge.Im showing you that inferno doesnt have to charge because of the gated units,thus will receive only half damage.

OK, I did miss that you said the situation is one which you cannot believe in yourself. That means the Master Hunters will be getting shots in at full damage and they are killers and your original argument that Master Hunters are not killers because they deal the same damage as Blood Furies at half range is wrong.

My original argument wasnt that hunters arent killers,it was a typo.I apologised for that.My original argument was if furries do the same damage as obvious killers,and survive roughly the same amount of time,how come you dont count them as such?

What do you mean by 'uncontested'?

Exactly that.Unless you face some serious stacks,like lots of druids,or mages,you arent going to have much problems.But then again,save for necro,who has no problems with those?

I'll just say that Deep Hydras do not fit under my original classification with ease. They are not killers, they are not supporters, they are not finesse and they are not cannon fodder. They are something else. But given only these four choices you would have to put them under cannon fodder. Where else can you put them?

Supporters,I already said that.

And then you did your math so you kill 4-6 Paladins. Then you did more math and killed only 3. Then your math was so grossly inaccurate that increasing the numbers of Blood Furies by almost 100% results in kills that number less than what you calculated. How can that be possible?

No,when I did the math I came with 2.

Blood Furies are finesse against neutrals. They're also finesse against another hero. What is your point exactly? Finesse units can kill as well. They are not bound to 'not killing'. If a unit is patently incapable of killing, it would be labelled 'cannon fodder'.

Read the above about comparison with hunters.Use that in the case of neutrals.

[Banedon]

The units that can reach furries are bussy doing something else.The ones that you can spare,cant reach the furries.Simple as that.

Your problem is thinking your opponent actually wants to commit creatures to killing the Blood Furies. Whatever creatures are present would automatically go to killing the more dangerous threats of Black Dragons and Grim Raiders. They don't want to target the Blood Furies, not fail to reach them.

You may say that's not true. Then I challenge you this. Suppose the Blood Furies magically find themselves teleported such that they are in the middle of the battlefield, within range of all opposing creatures. Now 'the ones that you can spare' can actually reach the Blood Furies, but who is going to attack them? Can you name any stacks that would?

Familiars and demons can kill up to cca 5 of your paladins in a hit.Depending mostly on luck.

Have you done your maths? I want you to confirm before I go test it out.

Yes,well see thats what I meant way back when I said that the beauty of HV is to make all units as equally important and that dungeon is as close to that as possible.No matter what you attack,the rest is just as dangerous.With the hero presenting the biggest threat.

Not at all. Against Dungeon I don't care about the Assassins or Minotaur Guards. Shadow Matriaches and Blood Furies are only problematic if Dungeon elects to hang back and defend. Black Dragons and Grim Raiders are only problematic if Dungeon elects to take the initiative and charge. Deep Hydras worry me only if they get Teleported or spend three turns to get over.

See when I first pulled this in I asked wholl support them in melee?Meaning wholl share the pain with them.I never disputed that inquisitors,marksmen,your hero and balista will support them,but there is no one to share the pain with them,thus they die first.You said thats not true because griffins will be there.I ask you again,where will the griffins be so that theyll take the hit?

I ask you again, since when does 'support' only cover getting hit? How can Marksmen support Paladins if they're not getting hit by all the opponent's melee creatures? Please don't say Ranged creatures will shoot the Marksmen. Chances are they'll hit the Paladins if they can even shoot (ie are not obstructed).

That griffins wont share the pain with the paladins like you said they will.

Even if they don't share the pain they reduce the pain. OK?

No,it wouldnt be better because its not two weeks with the castle growth but one and a half.I decided to use the lowest common denominator in here,not the highest one.

You decided to just use three week's worth of growth, thus fooling the gullible. This is out of the context and I will not pursue it.

I gave you a link,and I will repeat it.It wasnt something I said,but something adicto said.

I cannot trust adicto. I need a second opinion. Besides, even if it were true I am spot on in saying that Irresistable Magic is what gives the Warlock the ability to pierce Magical Immunity. I would still cast it then. Forces you to give up Meteor Shower.

They do cost half more,true.But with tactics,my furries are on the third square,thus they can hit your front lines even if you place cerberi in front of them.They wont be able to reach only the last line,but they wouldnt be able to do that anyways,because of your large creatures.

You're assuming there are no more obstructions on the battlefield, which isn't going to be the case. There will be natural obstacles as well as your Black Dragons and Grim Raiders.

Yes,and thats a specific example that doesnt happen very often.More often youll have to either sacrifize your nightmares to incapacitate your furries,or let them wreack havoc in your lines.

Why would I have to sacrifice Nightmares? Gating please. And they hardly wreck 'havoc'.

True,but that still doesnt mean that it wont happen.And the only thing Ill give you is that dragons are extremelly more usefull than furries in sieges.As for the rest of the battles,they are the same(unless in late games).So I asked you how you are going to support your dragons in a siege,the only place where furries cannot compare to them?

I tell you it does not happen. Don't believe me? Ask any seasoned Heroes 5 player (and I don't mean you). Serious seige battles do not happen. The only kind of seige battles involve those where you take a lightly-defended castle or a battle by prearrangement (eg. as in the rules for MMR strategy) where losing does not matter that much.

No,they are killers,that stands.But they are slow killers because they wont have the chance to act as often,are being targeted first almost every time,and almost every time they die before they even act.

I thought you also said that Deep Hydras are generally the only unit still alive at the end of the battle.

See,there goes again my point about dungeon being the best balanced town creature wise.

Not true at all. The challenge here is that Blood Furies cannot kill one level 7 unit with every action. This is based on your assumption that there are 40 Blood Furies present. They hardly deal the damage you think they do.

Between 50(the best case against shadows)and 154(the worst case against magmas),without counting luck and hero abilities(like frenzy,for example).

Let's see. You said in a battle in week 5 you may have 50 Blood Furies. So they get to kill one Shadow Dragon. But wait! The Necropolis's killer creature is hardly the Shadow Dragons. So what? And let's see some more. You said in a battle in week 5 you may have 50 Blood Furies. So can they kill a level 7 unit with every attack against every race other than Necropolis?

Yes,but my point that no one is there to share the load still stands.They are alone in melee,you never proved otherwise.

Let me try an analogy because you don't appear to ever get it. Suppose you're walking to Paris with a 20-kg bag. Obviously that is going to tire you out. Then someone comes along and offers to give your baggage a lift. Obviously the journey's going to be much easier, right?

You see? If the Paladins go in totally alone it'd be like walking to Paris with a 20-kg bag. If the Imperial Griffins get going and kill some units it'd be getting a lift. You, as the Paladins, would be much less tired - in Heroes 5 terms, they will be much less hurt. So what if they remain the focus of the entire opposing army? They take less damage. They are supported. Strike four.

Just because AI acted in a certain way for you doesnt mean like it will for others.No,I wont apologize because I am still saying that you can hold both castles with an optimum build.

Two words: Prove it.

Assassins dont kill on their first turn,its their poison that kills.Thus finesse.Gremlins do half damage to creatures out of their range,and arent in high numbers like skeletons to compensate for that.

Your assessment is self-contradictory. You define finesse as requiring a lot of manipulation, such as Paladins dancing to deal extra damage. Then your Assassins, whom you just aim and fire, are classified as 'finesse'. Impossible. And Master Gremlins may deal half damage, but what else is Academy going to use to kill early-game? The hero?

I managed to go there now.I dont see your point.I never said I was the best.But that doesnt mean I dont see my mistakes,nor how the game would play if I didnt make them,or when someone better than me would play it.

The point is, you are spouting advice on The Cultists when you never played the map on v1.4. Essentially, you are giving advice when you don't even have the game.

Yet you said griffins will be there to receive some of the force of the enemy army.

They reduce the force of the enemy army and maybe absorb some of the damage if you're up against an incompetent player. So the Paladins are supported.

Your point was that sylvan will do full damage to the enemy because it has to charge.Im showing you that inferno doesnt have to charge because of the gated units,thus will receive only half damage.

They will have to charge eventually. The Gated units will arrive and not move for an extra turn as well; they die quickly. Inferno had better charge Sylvan or the Ranged fire will wipe Inferno out.

Exactly that.Unless you face some serious stacks,like lots of druids,or mages,you arent going to have much problems.But then again,save for necro,who has no problems with those?

Still don't understand I'm afraid. How does this have to do with 'uncontested'?

Supporters,I already said that.

Explain. Supporters support the rest of the army. Inquistors, Archliches, Shadow Matriaches all fit into this as they can cast spells that improve their allies or weaken their opponents. How does Deep Hydras do this?

No,when I did the math I came with 2.

Show me your calculations. And, 90 Blood Furies kill 1-2, not 2.

Read the above about comparison with hunters.Use that in the case of neutrals.

Master Hunters kill better against all but slow walkers as well. They are particularly superior against Ranged units, where the Blood Furies might very well suffer casualties (don't dispute this; when I brought in the example of Marksmen getting lucky and moving before the Blood Furies go twice, you didn't respond).

Exactly the point I am pressing.You have to do a lot of manouvering and planing with your paladins as well,yet they arent finesse.You have to do a lot of splitting and carefull planing with druids(and other casters),yet they are killers as well,not finesse.

How much planning do you need with Paladins and Druids? Compare that against the planning you need with Blood Furies and with (under your classification) Assassins.

[asandir]

holy crap guys, I know that this is a mostly civilised conversation and all, but it's getting out of control look at the size of the posts!!!

[ThunderTitan]

What, you weren't here for the great Banedon/csarmi feud?! Give them a stick and dirt to draw on and they could play any HoMM.

[PhoenixReborn]

Interjection:

I held both castles on the cultist mission. I had to try many times but I succeeded.

The reason the growth formula for the sacrificial pit is so complicated is because the growth lasts for the rest of the game. I see it as being useful only on the largest maps.

Seems to me like Banedon lacks experience playing as inferno and that Daemian Lucifer needs to patch to 1.4 (if he hasn't already).

So if the Dungeon creatures are well balanced meaning that they all are a threat do you think the haven line up is similarly balanced? I can't see a weak spot.

[PhoenixReborn]

Who is this csarmi I've heard so much about? Does he/she play HV? Banedon seems to think it's Jolly Joker.

[ThunderTitan]

HERE! And i really doubt he's JJ, seeing how not all of his post were so friendly to H5.

[DaemianLucifer]

Your problem is thinking your opponent actually wants to commit creatures to killing the Blood Furies. Whatever creatures are present would automatically go to killing the more dangerous threats of Black Dragons and Grim Raiders. They don't want to target the Blood Furies, not fail to reach them.

Sure,you wouldnt want to kill the stack that deals ~200 damage to you every turn,with an initiative of 16

You may say that's not true. Then I challenge you this. Suppose the Blood Furies magically find themselves teleported such that they are in the middle of the battlefield, within range of all opposing creatures. Now 'the ones that you can spare' can actually reach the Blood Furies, but who is going to attack them? Can you name any stacks that would?

Yes I can:Demons and imps for inferno,treants and dancers for sylvan(and maybe even sprites),squires and militia(if you have any,that is)for haven,zombies and ghosts for necro(maybe even wraiths and vamps),hydras and minos for dungeon,golems and probably rakshasas for academy.Dont know about dwarves.Now these are without anyone else actually in range,just furries.The same case that your paladins find themselves in.

Have you done your maths? I want you to confirm before I go test it out.

This time I did.Counting that thered be about 150 of both of these,without any heroes these can do ~140-430.If you add heroes.If you factor in heroes,hellfire,possible luck,and possible frenzy you see that these two can do even over 900 damage to paladins.But I decided to go with 5 as the optimum here.

Not at all. Against Dungeon I don't care about the Assassins or Minotaur Guards. Shadow Matriaches and Blood Furies are only problematic if Dungeon elects to hang back and defend. Black Dragons and Grim Raiders are only problematic if Dungeon elects to take the initiative and charge. Deep Hydras worry me only if they get Teleported or spend three turns to get over.

But dungeon will never go pure offense nor pure defense.It will start an offense with raiders and dragons,supported by the rest(especially furries),then wait for you to attack back,all the while hero is firing spells.And you dont care about those 100+ assassins poisoning all your units?Unless you are a necro,that one is a big threat as well.Besides,I said its as close to the perfect balance as possible,not that it is perfectly balanced.

I ask you again, since when does 'support' only cover getting hit? How can Marksmen support Paladins if they're not getting hit by all the opponent's melee creatures? Please don't say Ranged creatures will shoot the Marksmen. Chances are they'll hit the Paladins if they can even shoot (ie are not obstructed).

And Im telling you again:My original comment was that your paladins will receive the full furry of your enemy.I never said that you wont kill of their units with your other forces.But you were the one that said that after the dive the griffins will be there to share the pain.I told you that they wont.

Even if they don't share the pain they reduce the pain. OK?

I never said they dont.But you said that they share the pain,not me.

You decided to just use three week's worth of growth, thus fooling the gullible. This is out of the context and I will not pursue it.

Sure,whatever you say.I used it to fool the guilable

I cannot trust adicto. I need a second opinion. Besides, even if it were true I am spot on in saying that Irresistable Magic is what gives the Warlock the ability to pierce Magical Immunity. I would still cast it then. Forces you to give up Meteor Shower.

Tell me,when does warlock not use IM?And why does it force me to give up MS?It will still be just one creature thats protected.Plus because its hunters,Id probably use (chain) lightning,ice bolt or circle of winter rather than MS,because of their stun not their damage.And the stun is always there,no matter if you ressist the damage or not.Thats the beauty of IM.

You're assuming there are no more obstructions on the battlefield, which isn't going to be the case. There will be natural obstacles as well as your Black Dragons and Grim Raiders.

So if you are lucky that your cerberi get in front of me,and if you are lucky that there are some obstacles in front of the furries I may not reach your units?I admit that the game rellies to much on luck,but saying that its a fact that you can incapacitate my furries with just cerberi is wrong.Plus,what gives you the idea that raiders and dragons will be in front of furries?Why would I clutter their path?

Why would I have to sacrifice Nightmares? Gating please. And they hardly wreck 'havoc'.

Because you said youll incapacitate my furries imidiatelly.Thats not imidiatelly now,isnt it?

I tell you it does not happen. Don't believe me? Ask any seasoned Heroes 5 player (and I don't mean you). Serious seige battles do not happen. The only kind of seige battles involve those where you take a lightly-defended castle or a battle by prearrangement (eg. as in the rules for MMR strategy) where losing does not matter that much.

It does happen.A good way to give a chance of winning to someone who is weaker then you is to let him have the benefit of the castle.The fact that you never did it,or the fact that I never did it doesnt mean that no one does it.

I thought you also said that Deep Hydras are generally the only unit still alive at the end of the battle.

Yes they do.So?Even if you TA them they will probably be the only survivors at the end,yet you cannot call the useless fodder in that case,cant you?

Not true at all. The challenge here is that Blood Furies cannot kill one level 7 unit with every action. This is based on your assumption that there are 40 Blood Furies present. They hardly deal the damage you think they do.

40 furries was not my assumption,it was an example of a small strike force I used with aaeglr in a campaign map.If you have only 40 furries in week 5 you do deserve to lose.Big time.

Let's see. You said in a battle in week 5 you may have 50 Blood Furies. So they get to kill one Shadow Dragon. But wait! The Necropolis's killer creature is hardly the Shadow Dragons. So what? And let's see some more. You said in a battle in week 5 you may have 50 Blood Furies. So can they kill a level 7 unit with every attack against every race other than Necropolis?

Ok,let me use the second toughest level 7 unit,the black dragon:Acording to the formula(below)we get the damage of 22-29 for every 10 furries you have(thats counting your enemy has defense,you have attack and frenzy).So,without counting the luck,youd need between 80 and 100 furries to kill the second toughest unit.Usin a bit of aproximation,youd need between 60 and 80 furries to kill titans,70-100 for angels,60-90 for devils,50-70 for shadows and 60-90 for emeralds.Im not counting magmas here because their defense isnt so close to 30 as the rest of these creatures,and youd need 110-150 furries for these.So yes,with luck trigering every second turn,your 50 furries indeed do kill a level 7 creature every turn,if he has defense.If not,even more.

Let me try an analogy because you don't appear to ever get it. Suppose you're walking to Paris with a 20-kg bag. Obviously that is going to tire you out. Then someone comes along and offers to give your baggage a lift. Obviously the journey's going to be much easier, right?

You see? If the Paladins go in totally alone it'd be like walking to Paris with a 20-kg bag. If the Imperial Griffins get going and kill some units it'd be getting a lift. You, as the Paladins, would be much less tired - in Heroes 5 terms, they will be much less hurt. So what if they remain the focus of the entire opposing army? They take less damage. They are supported. Strike four.

Wrong analogy.The griffin support in this case would be if someone gave you a bike.Youd still have to cary all the load yourself,youd still have to strain your legs,the difference is that youll reach your goal faster.

Two words: Prove it.

Ok,GC is one person that did it and posted it,PhoenixReborn is another.There you go,two people(besides me),that did it.Or do you think that they cannot believe it because I somehow bribed them and want another oppinion

Your assessment is self-contradictory. You define finesse as requiring a lot of manipulation, such as Paladins dancing to deal extra damage. Then your Assassins, whom you just aim and fire, are classified as 'finesse'. Impossible. And Master Gremlins may deal half damage, but what else is Academy going to use to kill early-game? The hero?

Now lets see:When did I define finesse like that?Oh right,I never did.It was you who defined it like that.So what if MGs will do the killing?Compared to other level ones,they arent killers.

The point is, you are spouting advice on The Cultists when you never played the map on v1.4. Essentially, you are giving advice when you don't even have the game.

Again I have to correct you:"dont play" is not the same as "dont have".I never uninstalled it.I can still start it whenevr I want.The reason I wont is because I had enough frustration with it.

They reduce the force of the enemy army and maybe absorb some of the damage if you're up against an incompetent player. So the Paladins are supported.

Yes they are supported,but they still receive the full furry of your enemy,which was my original argument,which you still avoid to disprove.

They will have to charge eventually. The Gated units will arrive and not move for an extra turn as well; they die quickly. Inferno had better charge Sylvan or the Ranged fire will wipe Inferno out.

So lets see:I can charge to receive one and a half to two full damages from your ranged units(because I have to clear the guardians first),or I can choose to wait(maybe even defend)until fodder arives and receive two halfs of your full ranged damage.What will I choose,I wonder?

Still don't understand I'm afraid. How does this have to do with 'uncontested'?

Read it in the dictionary

Explain. Supporters support the rest of the army. Inquistors, Archliches, Shadow Matriaches all fit into this as they can cast spells that improve their allies or weaken their opponents. How does Deep Hydras do this?

Simple:They protect your back ranks from chargers,or they can be plunged in enemy ranks to deal massive damage if you TA them.They are more close to support than fodder anyway you look at it.

Show me your calculations. And, 90 Blood Furies kill 1-2, not 2.

Fine,heres the full calculation:90 furries,enemy with defense(-30% of your attack),you with attack(+20% of your attack),you have frenzy,your attack is the same as enemies defense(for the ease of calculating).Paladins defense(24)minus your furries attack(5)gives us 19.The formula is (x*size/(1+difference*0.05))*1.2*0.7,where x is random between 6 and 8(5-7+1 for frenzy),size is 90,difference is 19,and 1.2 and 0.7 come from attack and defense.So this gives us the damage range of(6*90*0.84)/1.95 to (8*90*0.84)/1.95 which is 232-310,thus killing 2-3 paladins,not 1-2.with luck its 4-6,which is what I said initially,wasnt it?Whats that?Oh you didnt have battle frenzy?Yet you are talking to me about not playing the game well?

Master Hunters kill better against all but slow walkers as well. They are particularly superior against Ranged units, where the Blood Furies might very well suffer casualties (don't dispute this; when I brought in the example of Marksmen getting lucky and moving before the Blood Furies go twice, you didn't respond).

So you are saying that if you fight druids,hunters,marksmen,mages,etc you are going to loose no hunters?And what if all the stacks get to go before your hunters?The game relies a lot on luck,no question about it.But are we to asume that luck will always be against us?

How much planning do you need with Paladins and Druids? Compare that against the planning you need with Blood Furies and with (under your classification) Assassins.

How much planing do you need with druids? A lot.A lot more than with any non caster units.

[Mytical]

Ok I am stepping out of this debate...since for the most part my questions and such get over shadowed by these gianormous posts. As a last thing I will admit one thing. Furies are much stronger when you have the right skills for them (Aura of swiftness, luck, ect). They benifit more from the skills then a lot of the others do. Once TA and deep hydras come along they are more support then either finesse or killers. Now if they had more numbers ... they would be scary (5 base is rather pathetic for tier 2, when some tier 4 have the same). Dungeon is a town who's skills seem to work for their creatures more then some other towns..though there is a few skills not so great for them. Ask yourself this though, why only 5 base growth (which generally is tier 4 growth?) The answer is obvious to me, because they can be as dangerous as some tier 4 creatures.

[winterfate]

Ok I am stepping out of this debate...since for the most part my questions and such get over shadowed by these gianormous posts. As a last thing I will admit one thing. Furies are much stronger when you have the right skills for them (Aura of swiftness, luck, ect). They benifit more from the skills then a lot of the others do. Once TA and deep hydras come along they are more support then either finesse or killers. Now if they had more numbers ... they would be scary (5 base is rather pathetic for tier 2, when some tier 4 have the same). Dungeon is a town who's skills seem to work for their creatures more then some other towns..though there is a few skills not so great for them.

Good call Mytical! . But then again, I can't stand to watch two people go on and on and on about the same subject (with almost no variation in the argument; which is why I've been trying to stop it ).