An idea for Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld

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Jolly Joker
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An idea for Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld

Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 6 2006, 9:41

It's clear that those spells are, well unsatisfactory for level 5 spells, but their main problem seems to be the fact that they may be completely useless depending on the factions you play with/against.

This then might make sense:

1) Remove both spells out of the mage guild;
2) Replace them with:
a) Regeneration for Light Magic; this MIGHT even work with Resurrect effect. It could - just to give an example - give 20+ 4*Power Regeneration with Resurrect effect each turn.
b) Vampirism (Life Drain) for Dark Magic
3) Make a Dark Magic ABILITY out of Curse of the Netherworld, available only for Necros and Demon Lords; the ability MIGHT even work without costing mana (or at least much less); If it worked withou Mana it would be a VERY good ability and should have SOME prerequisites.
Another thought would be, depending on what they are planning for the new Haven units in the addon, should they become playable in the same sense as the other units, to make thoser new units immune against CotN and allow it for Haven as well (Fallen Knight ability would be one prerequisite then).
4) Make a - you guess it - Light Magic ability out of Word of Light, available for Knight, Ranger and Wizard. Dungeon should be left out of this, I'd think.

Any thoughts?

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Postby Elvin » Oct 6 2006, 10:06

They've been there for so long that it would feel strange to just replace them.What I'd like to see is a secondary effect.For instance curse of the netherworld could have a chance to curse any good creature with a random curse up to lvl 3 as word of light could cast a random buff to good creatures,chance dependent on caster/spell lvl.Or of course on a skill but I am against skills that affect lvl 5 spells.Master of wrath/vulnerability bonus is just fine we don't need more and it's the base spell we should buff after all.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 6 2006, 10:09

Regen and Life Drain are great spells, good ideea. But i'd prefer they add more spells then replace others. Word/Curse could just be buffed somehow.
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Postby okrane » Oct 6 2006, 10:10

t's clear that those spells are, well unsatisfactory for level 5 spells, but their main problem seems to be the fact that they may be completely useless depending on the factions you play with/against.

This then might make sense:

1) Remove both spells out of the mage guild;
2) Replace them with:
a) Regeneration for Light Magic; this MIGHT even work with Resurrect effect. It could - just to give an example - give 20+ 4*Power Regeneration with Resurrect effect each turn.
b) Vampirism (Life Drain) for Dark Magic
3) Make a Dark Magic ABILITY out of Curse of the Netherworld, available only for Necros and Demon Lords; the ability MIGHT even work without costing mana (or at least much less); If it worked withou Mana it would be a VERY good ability and should have SOME prerequisites.
Another thought would be, depending on what they are planning for the new Haven units in the addon, should they become playable in the same sense as the other units, to make thoser new units immune against CotN and allow it for Haven as well (Fallen Knight ability would be one prerequisite then).
4) Make a - you guess it - Light Magic ability out of Word of Light, available for Knight, Ranger and Wizard. Dungeon should be left out of this, I'd think.

Any thoughts?



I like it.... if it can be done...
but I don't really feel any loss for Curse/Word i.e. should they be removed from the game completely I won't mind... and some heroes have very good secondary light/dark abilities...

But then again... if it can be done... I like it

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 6 2006, 10:28

Elvin wrote:They've been there for so long that it would feel strange to just replace them.What I'd like to see is a secondary effect.For instance curse of the netherworld could have a chance to curse any good creature with a random curse up to lvl 3 as word of light could cast a random buff to good creatures,chance dependent on caster/spell lvl.Or of course on a skill but I am against skills that affect lvl 5 spells.Master of wrath/vulnerability bonus is just fine we don't need more and it's the base spell we should buff after all.

That leaves the same problem: You cannot use Word of Light against, let's say Dungeon; or Academy. So the spell is eminently useless in some situations. No spell should be useless, not to mention a level 5. It makes no sense to have a spell that casts a random buff onto all creatures on the battlefield.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 6 2006, 11:20

thoughts:

you should post this in the modmaking guild.

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Postby okrane » Oct 6 2006, 11:29

thoughts:

you should post this in the modmaking guild.


@Moderators: please move the thread...

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 6 2006, 11:30

Sir_Toejam wrote:you should post this in the modmaking guild.


Can you actualy make new spells?!
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 6 2006, 11:39

I don't freaking want this to post in the mod-making guild, I want to DISCUSS this, dangit. IF there was something like that, we'd need specifics like what prerequisities for abilities would be needed and stuff.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 6 2006, 12:10

I think you can "fake it" to some extent.

AFAICT, you can copy a spell, change everything about it that isn't hardcoded, save it as a new xdb file, and make a reference to it in the appropriate reference table file. I haven't tried this with spells yet, but it works for creating "new" creatures, and the files are similar in structure and reference so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

you can also directly change any of the following:

-damage type (fire, water, etc., or "none")
-duration (providing the spell has a non-direct damage effect to begin with)
-damage amount
-the magic school it belongs to
-the level of the spell (1-5)
-whether you can cast it on friendlies or not
-whether it is an adventure spell (can cast on overland map) or not
-which textures and animations are used (not 100% sure on this one)
-the hero level required to cast it (all of the adventure spells, for example, have hero level requirements).
-whether a certain level of magic guild is required for the spell to appear there (regardless of the actual level of the spell)
-whether the spell is targeted or not
-which sound/visual effects the spell uses when cast

however, what "damage" and "duration" actually mean for each spell seems hardcoded for each.

example:

the arcane armor (celestial shield) spell's damage entry refers to the percent damage absorbed while the spell is active, and the duration refers to the total amount of damage which when absorbed, will end the spell, whereas the wasp swarm spell's damage entry refers to damage inflicted on the target, and the duration to the amount of initiative reduction.


I don't see a way around that at the moment, so while you could create a spell with the same effects, I don't think one could "combine" effects in a single spell, which makes for difficulty in creating truly novel spells.

However, with all the things in the list above that CAN be directly modified, it would be easy to create "variants" of spells that would add to various levels of each spell school.

you could create a spell that acts like a meteor shower for example, but instead of doing earth damage, does all elemental damage (fire, earth, air and water), and call it "elemental conflagration", or what have you, and give it the animation and sound effects for resurrection.

so, with that said, I'm not sure if all the things JJ mentioned can be done, but at least some of them can, I think.

you can add "spell like abilites" to creatures, so it also seems plausible you could do the same for heroes, if you wanted to give a true "lay on hands" type ability to your haven hero, for example.

I'm just scratching the surface here; some of the hadcoded limitations are obvious, others I'm just beginning to figure out how to work around. So don't take this all as definitive, but rather as just what I've managed to figure out while tinkering with the data files over the last few weeks.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Oct 6 2006, 13:48

I...I am speechless...JJ,are you Ill or something?

Yes,making those two skills and replacing them with regen and vampirism is an excelent idea.Regen should be power dependant,and similar to hydra(meaning it can raise the fallen),and should last very briefly(kn/16 with no mastery,kn/8 with basic,kn/4 with andvanced and kn/2 with expert),vampirisim would give a life drain ability(damage/2 is drained,or maybe damage/10 for no mastery,damage/5 for basic,damage/3 for advanced and damage/2 for expert).Also,word of light should strike only undead while word of light should strike all others(except mechanical creatures).Dungeon and inferno should have access to neither of these two skills,but should have something other equally as beneficial to compensate.For necromancer,corrupted soil could be replaced by curse of the netherworld.This one should stay the same it is now,because it hits practically everyone.Fire resistance for ranger,suppress light for wizard and refined mana for knight should be replaced with word of light,which should become either free,or with much cost reduction,since it hits just the necro.

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Postby Kristo » Oct 6 2006, 14:15

okrane wrote:
thoughts:

you should post this in the modmaking guild.


@Moderators: please move the thread...

This is a discussion for improvements to game mechanics, not just tweaking some stats. It'll stay where it is for now.

In the future, if you have a good reason for moving a thread (i.e., more than "move this plz k thx"), send one of us a PM and we'll look at it. Remember that we read pretty much everything around here; if a thread is obviously in the wrong place we'll take care of it eventually.

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Postby okrane » Oct 6 2006, 14:22

DaemianLucifer wrote:I...I am speechless...JJ,are you Ill or something?

Yes,making those two skills and replacing them with regen and vampirism is an excelent idea.Regen should be power dependant,and similar to hydra(meaning it can raise the fallen),and should last very briefly(kn/16 with no mastery,kn/8 with basic,kn/4 with andvanced and kn/2 with expert),vampirisim would give a life drain ability(damage/2 is drained,or maybe damage/10 for no mastery,damage/5 for basic,damage/3 for advanced and damage/2 for expert).Also,word of light should strike only undead while word of light should strike all others(except mechanical creatures).Dungeon and inferno should have access to neither of these two skills,but should have something other equally as beneficial to compensate.For necromancer,corrupted soil could be replaced by curse of the netherworld.This one should stay the same it is now,because it hits practically everyone.Fire resistance for ranger,suppress light for wizard and refined mana for knight should be replaced with word of light,which should become either free,or with much cost reduction,since it hits just the necro.


Sounds really good to me... I'd like that...

This is a discussion for improvements to game mechanics, not just tweaking some stats. It'll stay where it is for now


ok... got it...

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 6 2006, 14:25

Jolly Joker wrote:That leaves the same problem: You cannot use Word of Light against, let's say Dungeon; or Academy. So the spell is eminently useless in some situations. No spell should be useless, not to mention a level 5. It makes no sense to have a spell that casts a random buff onto all creatures on the battlefield.


They could be lowered to level 3/4 and replaced by better level 5 spells. There are plenty of good spells in H4 that isn't currently in use, for example.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Oct 6 2006, 14:30

Yeah,like cat reflexes.That one would be hell of a good spell.

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Postby Elvin » Oct 6 2006, 15:11

I guess a new version of divine interception that cleanses all units and raises an anount of hp at the same time(less than resurrection of course) or guardian angel would be better.Or hand of death for dark...H4 had some pretty good spells truth be told.But that's hoping for too much I fear ;|
On fixing the current spells:@JJ: I had in mind the caster's creatures-not all present in the battlefield.This way I'd work even if it didn't damage the enemy creatures.If not a random spell how about an improved version of benediction?Maybe adding dungeon for word of light would be fairer,affecting 3 out of 6 factions(7 with the dwarves...)
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 6 2006, 16:13

I think that the spells as such are not the problem. They have a high base damage output that will allow even low spell power heros to make effective use of them; on the other hand, since the spell is normally meant to hurt only the opponent (as opposed to Armageddon) the damage output is no problem.
The problem for me is the fact that the spells might be useless. You play as Inferno against Nekropolis, for example, and you have no working level 5 Dark Magic spell as Inferno. WoL is even worse; the Dwarves won't make things better because they have Light Magic as well in their Guild, btw.
So I don't think adding a function to the spell will change something - that would make the spells massively overpowered then in case of them "fitting".
So the problem for me is the fact that they are sometimes completely useless, i.e, you play Ranger against Knight, for example.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 6 2006, 17:36

Well, both Dark Magic's level 5 spells are useless against necropolis, so you'd have to be doing even more changing. Then again, I think that just using the final combat as a guide of usefulness isn't enough: resurrection for example is often more valuable before when it lowers your losses and lets you enter the final combat with larger forces. Same for Raise dead for necromancers - or necromancy, for that matter. Still, I think both spells would be better of as level three or four- they aren't that powerful, because you seldom fight enemies of both right alignment and with enough stacks to make them worthwhile.
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Postby maltz » Oct 6 2006, 18:09

The Curse of the Netherwind is actually quite handy when you face a large number of stacks - more than 1000 damages in one go.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 6 2006, 19:02

Well, yes, that's what I said in the other thread: CotN is a lot better than WoL. WoL is of use only when you face Necro or Infernal creatures which doesn't do - even less when you think about the addon: the Dwarves will be a Light faction as well.
As a matter of principle there shouldn't be a spell that doesn't work against 5 out of 7 opponents. Not even on level 1. I have no problem with the fact that some spells don't work against undead or elementals or mechanical units. But is it really necessary to have a spell like that as level 5? I mean, a lot of the H IV spells are redundant, but I don't think it is difficult to find an adequate level 5 light spell.


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