your opinion on Raise Dead & Ressurect in 1.3

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What do you think about Raise Dead & Ressurect in 1.3

It was correct desidion to make them work like this
19
50%
I dont know yet
8
21%
Awful. These spells are nearly usless now.
11
29%
 
Total votes: 38

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 23 2006, 22:13

Naskoni wrote:And a 90 mana Vladimir? Has it occured to you that Necromancers just so happen to be VERY weak in knowledge, just like Inferno is very weak in Spellpower, so a 90 mana Necromancer is hardly easy to come by by normal leveling unless you bathe in artifacts, so sorry if I tend to dismiss your argument here. If you have a 90 mana Vladimir I think his Raise Dead will not be your largest problem anyway ;)


You forget that necro has maybe one of the strongest skills:Mark of the necromancer.With that,you can cast raise dead infinitelly.In markals end fight,I think I raised my skel archers cca 30 times(and I casted other spells as well),and still had full mana.

MistWeaver wrote:2) resurection of one unit that takes 20% of health of other 1000+++ is just ridiculous.


*sigh*Again with the explaining:The spell is so strong that using just mana for it isnt enough,but it also saps the life force out of every creature in that stack.There you have it,a logical explanation.

Though I did propose that the best solution would be to make it work like in HIV,I really like this one,and am suprised that nival thought of it.Though I dont know how it actually works,I like how it looks on paper.But I wont vote because I didnt test it.

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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 22:15

@Naskoni
well maybe in 1.3 they changed a little her ability... because I just finished a game and had her at level 4 (as a recruited secondary hero) and the decrease in morale and luck was already -2...initiative was the same...
So if at lvl 20 this becomes, say, -5 luck & -5 morale it's already not bad...
combine this with howl of terror(with mod) and you have -11 morale...
so basicaly the enemy will have always -5 morale... if not imune to this effect... I find this rather strong... but it's just a hypothesys...

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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 22:24

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Naskoni wrote:And a 90 mana Vladimir? Has it occured to you that Necromancers just so happen to be VERY weak in knowledge, just like Inferno is very weak in Spellpower, so a 90 mana Necromancer is hardly easy to come by by normal leveling unless you bathe in artifacts, so sorry if I tend to dismiss your argument here. If you have a 90 mana Vladimir I think his Raise Dead will not be your largest problem anyway ;)


You forget that necro has maybe one of the strongest skills:Mark of the necromancer.With that,you can cast raise dead infinitelly.In markals end fight,I think I raised my skel archers cca 30 times(and I casted other spells as well),and still had full mana.


You present it as if Necros get this skill from the very beginning or always as in being guaranteed... If non-specializing heroes with Raise Dead get only part of efficiency of the spell then even if you specialize in Dark Magic (as to get Mark of the Necromancer) you would still need to specialize in Summoning Magic to make good of it - quite a price provided Necros have realistically only five slots for skills at best.

If you think Raise Dead is that bad you should try mass Decay at expert proficiency and sufficient spellpower - now that thing works wonders provided the enemy doesn't have mass Dispell that is.

The point of having to nerf the spell because you "might" get Mark of the Necromancer is moot - if that combo is too strong then one has to tweak Mark of the Necromancer, not the spells cast because of it.

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Postby LordErtz » Sep 23 2006, 22:38

They DID just raise the costs of these spells substantially with no compensation for spellpower or knowledge...but what they ALSO did was create a bug in which the HP is carried over from battle to battle...

so it's not what they did to the spell was bad

it's what they didn't to do create a balance between what they changed and what they didn't change...

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 23 2006, 22:42

Naskoni wrote:You present it as if Necros get this skill from the very beginning or always as in being guaranteed... If non-specializing heroes with Raise Dead get only part of efficiency of the spell then even if you specialize in Dark Magic (as to get Mark of the Necromancer) you would still need to specialize in Summoning Magic to make good of it - quite a price provided Necros have realistically only five slots for skills at best.


Its a choice.Cast a few powerfull ones,infinite weak ones,or infinite strong one but have two skills less.Personally,I wouldnt mind sacrificing a skill or two for that combo.

Naskoni wrote:The point of having to nerf the spell because you "might" get Mark of the Necromancer is moot - if that combo is too strong then one has to tweak Mark of the Necromancer, not the spells cast because of it.


No,its not just that combo that is overpowered.The whole spell is flawed to begin with.If it worked like in HIV(meaning it summoned a separate stack)it would be ok because you could raise each creature just once.Now,you can raise any creature any number of times(well,you could before 1.3),and thats what makes it overpowered.

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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 23:41

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Naskoni wrote:The point of having to nerf the spell because you "might" get Mark of the Necromancer is moot - if that combo is too strong then one has to tweak Mark of the

Necromancer, not the spells cast because of it.


No,its not just that combo that is overpowered.The whole spell is flawed to begin with.If it worked like in HIV(meaning it summoned a separate stack)it would be ok

because you could raise each creature just once.Now,you can raise any creature any number of times(well,you could before 1.3),and thats what makes it

overpowered.


Any number of creature any number of times? First you need plenty of spellpower, with necros you do get that, second you need plenty of knowledge and necros hardly get that for granted. Why do people always assume the best possible scenario under the sun here? First off other than Vlad you had 50% chance of not getting the spell at all to begin with and then you needed to find the appropriate artifacts in order to be able to "spam" it and even then you needed plenty of spellpower (i.e. high hero level) in order to do so effectively.

What do you want - limit spells like Meteor Shower to one attack to a particular stack so that you cannot "spam" it if you have the mana? Vs a good might hero (Haven for example) you will never resurrect as much as he kills through pure might (Paladins) - in big battles the numbers of those dying are times higher than whatever you can raise and with necros you cannot keep rising for long and while you do you cannot cast anything else, even as it was in 1.2. With Academy "spamming" it it was an issue as with the proper skills they got humongous mana pool and just as high spellpower - in their hands and in that particular case it was overpowered, at least in the final battle, but otherwise - I disagree with you. The main problem there was not the spell itself as well. People have to play with Necro more it seems - there are still myths flying around about Necromancy and Raise Dead as the problems are exaggerated out of proportion way too often.

okrane,

I started a new game with Deidre - she gets a bonus with to her skill right off the bat with -2 morale and luck, while normal necros get only -1 to both. They've changed her obviously, but I still don't know how and if her skill improves with leveling up. Even as it is at -2 it is already quite good and with one of those nice -2 morale rings battles can become much easier even as it is.

I'll play with her more and post if I notice a change to her skill, if at all.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 24 2006, 0:11

I wonder how hard it would have been to make only the raised guys have -20% HP?
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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 24 2006, 0:34

so really, there's nothing right now to stop spamming animate dead, even with the 20% hp reduction.

all that means is that you will raise more individuals with each cast, as those individuals will have less hps to begin with.

*shrug*

if the idea is to prevent endless raising of your stack of skellie archers, how does this stop the "spamming"?

think about this scenario:

you attack with a normal army and a lage stack of skellie archers.

your other units go after whatever, and your skellie archers attack whatever would normally attack them (say an opposing stack of monks).

well, every time you cast animate dead on your skellie archer stack, sure their hps are going down by 20%, but every time they attack the monk stack, the opposition's ability to inflict damage is also going down.

seems to me that over time, this would even itself out, and the tweak to the spell would essentially have no effect in game.

I guess it would depend on the relative stack sizes, thoough.


OTOH, let's think about what DL said about spamming using mark of necromancer. what if it were changed so that each time you cast animate dead, there WAS a permanent reduction in the stacks hps. (only for undead troops)?

what if it was dependent on expertise level of summoning magic?

like this:

no training:

animate dead causes a stack to lose 3% hp permanently on every cast.

basic:

2%

advanced:

1%

expert:

0.5%

not saying this would be easy to implement at all, but it theoretically could be done.

moreover, the addition of "fresh" troops would add back some of the lost hp%, based on the % of troops that were added to the stack.

so say if you added 30 new skellie archers to a stack of 1000, you could get back 3% of the hps lost by casting animate dead on that stack.

so say you had no training in summoning magic, and you cast animate dead twice on that stack during the battle.

that stack would lose 6% of it's total hps, but gain 3% back from the addition of the new "blood" (pun intended), for a net hp loss of 3%.

this would sure stop spamming the spell, especially at lower skill levels.

a side note:

I found something interesting:

if you cast raise dead on a stack of regenerating hydras, it cancels out whatever hps they managed to regenerate during the battle.

so, say if your hydras managed to regen 1 of their number, that ressurected individual will not be there after the battle is over if you cast animate dead on that stack at any time during the battle.

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Postby sylvanllewelyn » Sep 24 2006, 2:22

You guys keep forgetting, that this is a European game for a European market, and as such it's not designed for American emphesis on multiplayer balance. Their chief concern is single player, and whether the CAMPAIGNS are balanced the way it should be. The majority of THEIR audience only plays the campaigns, and most are not even able to do that. The video game market is less developed there, standards are more traditional, and even the "crappy" storyline is actually of a very high standard to them.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 24 2006, 2:48

uh, i think you're missing the point;

i don't think most here really care about what Nival plans to do, we are discussing modding the game for our own pleasure, and most of us (all?) have already finished the single-player campaigns.

If Nival wants to take any suggestions here to heart, then that's fine, but really we are just discussing modding the game to fit what most here want.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Sep 24 2006, 3:45

I don't play H5 much, but I've read through all this and the H4 style of ressurection seems like the best solution presented so far.

Personally, I don't even think ressurecting creatures should be permanent. It should only last for the battle to make the game more challenging and to take the "can't lose a single creature" feeling out of homm.

Also, the battle should end when a hero's "regular" army is defeated as was mentioned before.

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Postby cornellian » Sep 24 2006, 5:04

Magic shouldn't be underpowered to might. Please tell me if I've missed any, but I don't know a single fantasy setting where magic isn't the harder but more rewarding way to power.

Nival's changes to Res. RD were unnecessary, they should have made RD a level 3, maybe even level 4 spell and should have included "Resurrection Sickness" in the game to balance Resurrection. A Magic hero's power is his spells, casting a spell to no end doesn't mean he spams that spell. If that was the case, then every single attack of a Might hero's army should be thought as spamming attack/defence as well..

Toejam, I think, if you can, you should move RD higher in spell levels and maybe pair Resurrection with weakness and/or confusion to imitiate resurrection sickness...

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 24 2006, 5:09

Naskoni wrote:Any number of creature any number of times? First you need plenty of spellpower, with necros you do get that, second you need plenty of knowledge and necros hardly get that for granted. Why do people always assume the best possible scenario under the sun here? First off other than Vlad you had 50% chance of not getting the spell at all to begin with and then you needed to find the appropriate artifacts in order to be able to "spam" it and even then you needed plenty of spellpower (i.e. high hero level) in order to do so effectively.

What do you want - limit spells like Meteor Shower to one attack to a particular stack so that you cannot "spam" it if you have the mana? Vs a good might hero (Haven for example) you will never resurrect as much as he kills through pure might (Paladins) - in big battles the numbers of those dying are times higher than whatever you can raise and with necros you cannot keep rising for long and while you do you cannot cast anything else, even as it was in 1.2. With Academy "spamming" it it was an issue as with the proper skills they got humongous mana pool and just as high spellpower - in their hands and in that particular case it was overpowered, at least in the final battle, but otherwise - I disagree with you. The main problem there was not the spell itself as well. People have to play with Necro more it seems - there are still myths flying around about Necromancy and Raise Dead as the problems are exaggerated out of proportion way too often.


I said that the spell itself is overpowere,not the spell in the hands of a necro.With academy you might use it zillion times on a single rakchasa stack that would anyhilate the enemy.All you have to do is keep at least one other stack outside of combat,and keep at least one rakshasa alive between two castings.Same can be done with any other race if you pick your skills right,and get some extra knowledge.

Sir_Toejam wrote:so really, there's nothing right now to stop spamming animate dead, even with the 20% hp reduction.

all that means is that you will raise more individuals with each cast, as those individuals will have less hps to begin with.


No,you cannot cast it anymore after certain number of HP is deducted.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 24 2006, 5:14

No,you cannot cast it anymore after certain number of HP is deducted.


really? i guess i never actually cast it enough times on any given stack after the patch to have it stop.

well, then there is no way to spam it then, right?

so when somebody says they can cast it unlimited times with mark of the necromancer active, that's pre 1.3?

if this is all confirmed, then the issue really seems to be solved, doesn't it?

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Postby MrSteamTank » Sep 24 2006, 5:20

I think nival overdid it slightly. Right now all the spell honestly needs is a base power increase(this is both raise dead).
Something along the lines of an extra 50-100 hp summoned per casting. This way heroes with low spell powers can still use raise dead to a decent effect and heroes such as necros still get an improvement.

I MUCH prefer the spell now than before. An underpowered spell only leaves the spell itself worthless. An overpowered spell makes EVERY other spell useless. Given these two options I definitely prefer the former.

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Postby Alamar » Sep 24 2006, 5:24

I'm kind of glad, that as a Necro player, that there's actually more than one useful spell in my book now :) ...

OK that's an exaggeration but at least I'm not walking around any more with just Zombies + Skeletons being all but invulnerable to neutrals.

BTW: Necros can easily get virtually infinite mana during a fight so they were one of the few factions that could truly spam spells like there was no tomorrow.

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Postby MistWeaver » Sep 24 2006, 11:57

DaemianLucifer wrote:
MistWeaver wrote:2) resurection of one unit that takes 20% of health of other 1000+++ is just ridiculous.


*sigh*Again with the explaining:The spell is so strong that using just mana for it isnt enough,but it also saps the life force out of every creature in that stack.There you have it,a logical explanation.


Reading such posts, where people trying to cover nival's f*ck ups, really amuses me.
Furthemore your's "explaining" itself is even more ridiculous that the initial one.
So if Im a might-orientied hero with low spell & knowledge params, I still can put whole legion of troops amost to death in few turns ? That is you logic ? And moreover .. why then I cant do that with my enemy's troops ?

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Postby MistWeaver » Sep 24 2006, 12:12

DaemianLucifer wrote:
I said that the spell itself is overpowere,not the spell in the hands of a necro.With academy you might use it zillion times on a single rakchasa stack that would anyhilate the enemy.All you have to do is keep at least one other stack outside of combat,and keep at least one rakshasa alive between two castings.Same can be done with any other race if you pick your skills right,and get some extra knowledge.


Intresting, what knowledge hero must possess to cast raise dead zillion times.. ?

And continuing your logic, nival should make fireballs (and other direct damage spells) to make 20% less damage each time they are cast, 'couse some academy hero can use it zillion times on enemy troops. And he can just kill them all even without a move! Forking nonsense!

And the last .. as far as I remember alive troops are always on the top of the stack, so that strategy will fail.
Last edited by MistWeaver on Sep 24 2006, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Naskoni
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Postby Naskoni » Sep 24 2006, 12:12

MistWeaver wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:
MistWeaver wrote:2) resurection of one unit that takes 20% of health of other 1000+++ is just ridiculous.


*sigh*Again with the explaining:The spell is so strong that using just mana for it isnt enough,but it also saps the life force out of every creature in that stack.There you have it,a logical explanation.


Reading such posts, where people trying to cover nival's f*ck ups, really amuses me.
Furthemore your's "explaining" itself is even more ridiculous that the initial one.
So if Im a might-orientied hero with low spell & knowledge params, I still can put whole legion of troops amost to death in few turns ? That is you logic ? And moreover .. why then I cant do that with my enemy's troops ?


Like offensive Raise Dead? Raise one unit and screw all the rest with an added "bonus" of -20% max HP? :devil:

One interesting thought - do Archangels now apply that -10% "bonus" when they use their ability in combat too? Because if yes it would as ridiculous as it gets ;)

All they had to do is make the spell lv3 and that's it. I still believe it belongs in Dark Magic too. I had a look in the data.pak - at the moment the difference between a non specializing hero using it and one who is expert in Summoning Magic is a factor of 2.0 - i.e. an expert is exactly twice as good as a nobody in Summoning Magic - that has to change, a lot!

I'm "really" looking forward to their implementation of "rebalancing" Necromancy too...

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 24 2006, 12:39

This discussion sounds rather theoretical in my opinion.
In game practise the raise to 9 spell points has a lot more importance in the initial fight-the-neutrals phase than the reduction of HPs when you cast it, since you won't have the mana to cast it more than 4 times.
In the battles against neutrals the HP reduction has practically NO effect whatsoever (except, that you may find the reduction even useful for the Vampires (!)), depending on the situation.
So this rule takes effect mostly in serious fights against other heroes only, and it introduces a rather interesting tactical element. As it is, Raise Dead keeps the attack power of a stack but reduces the Health which is a very two-sided blade. Basically it's something like raising the blinds in a poker tourney: with each Raise Dead you keep the attack power while making the stack more vulnerable, but since this works in favor of the Raising numbers is well AS LONG AS YOU CAN CAST RAISE DEAD ANOTHER TIME, you are simply "raising the ante".
Let's say you have an enemy hero with an army doing 800 damag against your Skelly Archers - 160 Dead. Lets say, you have 800 Skeleton Archers, and let's say you can raise exactly the 800 damage points:
Raise 1: 160 killed, 160 raised: 800 Skeletons with 3200 HPs instead of 4000
Raise 2: 200 killed, 200 Raised, 800 Skeletons with 2400 HPs now.
Note that as long as the integrity of your army is intact you have had no losses, but it gets difficult now. Another round.
Raise 3: 266 killed, 266 Raised, 1600 HP left,
is the last comfortable casting. You now have only one casting and should the opponent get a stack through to attack the Skellys hand-to-hand at 2 HPs per Skellie you may lose them VERY fast (which would mean, you kept your attack power, but it seemingly wasn't enough to stop the opponent and you will suffer heavily for that).
You may be equally in trouble when the opponent can cast a heavy destructive spell at this point.
I have to say I like this rule very much. It introduces a new tactical element, that makes things rather interesting, forces Necros to think VERY hard about the right point to use that spell, and all in all you will see Necros use a lot more spells than before.


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