Destructive magic a bit underpowered?

[cornellian]

As for Destructive, it's as it always was, great at the begining and crap in the end. But the stuning-like abilities help with that.

No it wasn't, actually Disintegrate, Armageddon and the great Hand of Death in HoMM IV were quite good. Yes, Hand of Death was in Death Magic, but it basically was a necromancers disintegrate and it should have been incorporated into this one as a destruction spell.

Destructive magic doesn't cut it this time because of the way they designed the skill and spell systems. Heroes except wizards rarely take more than one spell discipline and the buffs and curses, being show-stoppers, are too valuable to overlook.

Still, an empowered meteor shower causing 1500+ damage is not that bad to take out the low tier/hard hitting mobs.

[Panda Tar]

I just had good magic damage when playing with Dungeon too. Something over 1300 damage using Meteor Shower. It was quite good when I was starting every new map, since it was possible to kill some strong guards using just spells (not miracles, but a good help).

But I think it is really weak overall. Depending just on Dungeon ability is not very nice. Also, that strange balance on spellcasting units...

[Mytical]

no crazy lonesome arch mage could obliterate anything

Actually in a fantasy setting Mages were really really powerful (and thus rare). Don't know if you know of Eleminster (may have spelled incorrectly), but I will give you an example with him. He was having a contest with anothe mage (a friendly contest), who was considered the greatest mage from the area he came from. They decided they would cast a fireball and whichever fireball was bigger, would be declaired the winner. The other mage went first, and he sent forward a fireball about 5' in diameter (which is pretty big). Eleminster just smiled and began weaving his hands in the same pattern that the mage before had...and the fireball he created obliterated a whole mountain...just gone..poof. Then while the other mage stood there with his mouth hanging open...Eleminster waved his pinky, and one twice the size roared into the heavens. A mage starting out is the weakest and frailest of individuals, they study books all day and get little or no exercise (yet stay slim because the magic is fueled partly by them). However, IF they survive, they are the greatest force arround. They can, possibly, slay dragons. Some (Raistlin from the test of the twins book, ect), can even challenge the gods. However, in this setting you are correct, there should be some balance. Might should start out strongest, and Magic end up strongest, but not until MUCH later in the game (like level 35 or so).
.

[asandir]

yep spell casting units .... sometimes too powerful in small numbers, and basically useless as casters in big numbers .... shame

as for level 35 .... now that is tough to get to

[DaemianLucifer]

yes and the reason is simpls ...
take a late game hero who lost his army, with his oponent at 1/4 health ... would it be normal for him to go back to his castles take some remaining troops, and kill him just because he has the power to hannihilate any army by himself ??
when power is tied to arny ( lets say +1 power / week of lvl 7 growth )
no crazy lonesome arch mage could obliterate anything

The game is heroes of might and magic,not armies of might and magic,so the accent should be on heroes(as it is).A great mage should be able to destroy a big army by himself,and should be countered only by a hero as strong as him.A great tactician should boost his single peasant enough to kill a dragon,and his armies should oblighterate every other army not supported by a hero as strong as himself.

[Cyrox]

yes and the reason is simpls ...
take a late game hero who lost his army, with his oponent at 1/4 health ... would it be normal for him to go back to his castles take some remaining troops, and kill him just because he has the power to hannihilate any army by himself ??
when power is tied to arny ( lets say +1 power / week of lvl 7 growth )
no crazy lonesome arch mage could obliterate anything

The game is heroes of might and magic,not armies of might and magic,so the accent should be on heroes(as it is).A great mage should be able to destroy a big army by himself,and should be countered only by a hero as strong as him.A great tactician should boost his single peasant enough to kill a dragon,and his armies should oblighterate every other army not supported by a hero as strong as himself.

Hmmm well said. I've always felt magic in all the games I've played was weak at the beginning, while strong at the end. But in this game it was strong in the beginning, and weak at the end. Magic is too weak in Heros V.

[asandir]

Hmmm well said. I've always felt magic in all the games I've played was weak at the beginning, while strong at the end. But in this game it was strong in the beginning, and weak at the end. Magic is too weak in Heros V.

it certainly is different to most fantasy based games .... but since a magic based hero is still supported by "might" troops for the most part, it is not as unbalancing as having an uber-powerful mage hero, with some pretty strong might troops as well .... having said that, magic is still TOO weak in HV

[Killroyan]

Well I can't say yet if magic is too weak in HommV. Have played too little with the other magics. But a good stack of druids that boosted 80 ancient ents with 13 defense!!! is not to say the least very good.

I am now in the next map but if my level 24 hero with expert destr magic isn't even able to destroy a small stack of 10 druids with his level 5 implosion spell then something doesn't feel right. Then I say yes it is too weak.

In the former series destructive was always hard to face. In I and II when you didn't get lightning bolt in your mages guild you would curse a lot because it was such a good creep clearing spell. But the evolution of the units (more hp, more in numbers on higher settings) is a lot further then the evolution of the magic and then especially destructive.

[mr.dna]

The best way would probably be to increase the power done by high level destruction spells, but nerf the empowered spells. Maybe only 30% extra damage costing 50% extra mana instead. This would make it more viable to other races and be more useful later in game. Dungeon would still have advantages of negating resistance and elemental chains. Perhaps adding warlock's luck to empowered spells. Adding desintegrate (no resurecetion possible) for destruction magic would be a nice feature. The stunning effect on lighting should be effective for all hits on chainlightning, but with same dividers as damage.

[DaemianLucifer]

The best way would probably be to increase the power done by high level destruction spells, but nerf the empowered spells. Maybe only 30% extra damage costing 50% extra mana instead. This would make it more viable to other races and be more useful later in game. Dungeon would still have advantages of negating resistance and elemental chains. Perhaps adding warlock's luck to empowered spells. Adding desintegrate (no resurecetion possible) for destruction magic would be a nice feature. The stunning effect on lighting should be effective for all hits on chainlightning, but with same dividers as damage.

30% for empowered spell is to little imo.They are fine the way they are.Its the basic spell that need to be more powerfull.Later in game your 5th level implosion does some 2k damage,while a first level bless increases the creatures damage by some 5k.

[mr.dna]

30% for empowered spell is to little imo.They are fine the way they are.Its the basic spell that need to be more powerfull.Later in game your 5th level implosion does some 2k damage,while a first level bless increases the creatures damage by some 5k.

sure the spell needs to be boosted, and it would make it easier to balance if the difference between the factions are smaller. If the differences are too large it will either be underpowered or overpowered. so the empowered spells should be affected by warlocks luck, an the general damage of high level spells should be increased accordingly (or more) to the reduction of empowered spells. So the dungeons benefits in destruction magic would be lower resistance, elemental chains, 30% extra damage and warlocks luck (if selected). The warlock still get a very high spellpower compared to other factions, so he will still deliver quite some damage. But to balance, might vs. magic both on small and extra large maps is ofcourse difficult. The problem ATM is that it's not very good to choose destructive magic unless you're a warlock.

[DaemianLucifer]

Thats why I think the damage per SP point should be much bigger.Warlocks dont get that much knowledge,so casting empowered spells all of the time is not that good.

[RaSmuShaDoW]

In a mid and late game Warlocks have more that enaugh of mana to cast any spell they have for the whole battle. Whole battle ussaly means max 5-6 casts.