Conjure Pheonix is simply ridiculous

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Has some great spells, sure, but they are few. RD, SE, PF, and SP. That's it. Just imagine your game when in mage guild you get Fire Trap, Wasp Swarm, Earthquake, Firewall and Arcane Armor. Ugh.

And whats wrong with arcane armor?Or with expert wasp swarm?It does reduce the initiative of the unit.

If you have to rely on arcane armor and wasp swarm you will lose. Do you use wasp swarm? It only reduces initiative significantly for the nature heroe with the specialty and the damage is somewhat lacking.

Summon Elemental used to be a good spell before being nerfed. Now it is pretty much useless. If you are not playing undead hope you get PF or at least SP.

GOW

[player1]

The problem I see with Arcane Arour (duel battles observation), is that it is mostly useful only in first few rounds of comabat.

If more is passed, you'll get more bang for the buck if you use Raise Dead. Not only extra virtual HP, but damage dealing potential too.

[player1]

As for Wasp Swarm, even expert version deals 30-40% less damage then untrained Ice Bolt. And delay effect is just for one turn, comapred to, for example, slow spell.

Same for Fist of Wraith, also -20% weaker at expert then untrained destruction spells.

Fire Trap is pointless (and mana expensive), due to random nation of the mines.

[MrSteamTank]

As for Wasp Swarm, even expert version deals 30-40% less damage then untrained Ice Bolt. And delay effect is just for one turn, comapred to, for example, slow spell.

Same for Fist of Wraith, also -20% weaker at expert then untrained destruction spells.

Fire Trap is pointless (and mana expensive), due to random nation of the mines.

At least fist of wrath is good on units like earth elementals, iron golems, black dragons, steel golems, and pheonix' due to the physical dmg it inflicts.

Honestly though I'm not saying that the pheonix is the most overpowered spell in the game. Their are spells that are obviously more overpowered. I'm just saying once you hit like 8-10 spellpower your pheonix starts to become broken. If your hero managers to get 3-4 artifacts to prop up his spell power and hits 20 or so the pheonix basically becomes invincible.

I was trying to bring to attention how ludicrous it is to have units have like 90 attack and 90 defense regardless of how powerful it's supposed to be. So I gave a reasonable suggestion of leaving its dmg/hp like it is and just keep its stats at a normal 35 or so attack/defense. This way it'll still have the highest attack/defense in the game it just won't be way over the top.

[Mytical]

I can't argue there. 35 is still way up there , So yeah cap them Phoenix's.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I was trying to bring to attention how ludicrous it is to have units have like 90 attack and 90 defense regardless of how powerful it's supposed to be. So I gave a reasonable suggestion of leaving its dmg/hp like it is and just keep its stats at a normal 35 or so attack/defense. This way it'll still have the highest attack/defense in the game it just won't be way over the top.

The Phoenix is only one unit however. Summon Elemental has already been nerfed to uselessness. I hope SP doesn't suffer the same fate.

As it is the only two summoning spells really useful to non-necros are SP and PF. Surely summoners should have at least 2 spells that can be effective?

GOW

[Shauku]

Magic Fist does more damage on Expert level than its Destructive counterpart Eldrich Arrow. Besides that MF cannot be resisted...

Wasp Swarm is really useful, but mostly only on Expert.

Land Mine is horrible. Overpriced and RANDOM. Earthquake is a disappointment everytime it appears.

Raise Dead has its uses, but is quite limited and requires dead troops. Why can't Raise dead work like Heal on normal troops? If I could restore the HP of my nearly fallen Colossus with it, that would increase its effectiveness among non-necros.

[DaemianLucifer]

As it is the only two summoning spells really useful to non-necros are SP and PF. Surely summoners should have at least 2 spells that can be effective?

Sure they should have effective spells,but these are more than effective.

[PhoenixReborn]

So I'm trying to get a grip on what needs to happen with the summoning school.

Fist of wrath-ok?
Fire trap - made more useful (mine placement?)
Wasp swarm-ok? maybe sprites reduce initiative
Raise dead-needs to be made less powerful (HP restriction?)
Phantom Forces-needs to be made less powerful (clones lack magic/abilities, or get rid of incorporeal)
Earthquake-more powerful to knock out towers/maybe damage moat
Fire wall-? not damage your own troops?
Summon elementals-back to 1.0 version
Arcane armor-fine
Summon Phoenix-Reduce stats of summoned phoenix

[ThunderTitan]

Wasp swarm need it's init reducing effect back, just in a more reduced capability. It can still get the original reduction with the Summoning Magic skill.

[DaemianLucifer]

Fist of wrath-ok?

A bit more power.Like I said in destruction magic thread,maybe SP^2 times some number would do the trick.Or it could have a stunning effect on expert.

Fire trap - made more useful (mine placement?)

Mine placement would be fine.Maybe make just half the mines random and half placable.

Wasp swarm-ok? maybe sprites reduce initiative

How about it reducing initiative treshold by 0.1 for none,0.2 for basic,0.4 for advanced and 0.7 for expet?

Raise dead-needs to be made less powerful (HP restriction?)

They way they are going to nerf it(reducing the HP of entire stack)sounds like a good solution to me.

Phantom Forces-needs to be made less powerful (clones lack magic/abilities, or get rid of incorporeal)

Make it clone just,for example,100SP hit points of the stack and preserve the amount of arrows and mana.Leaving it with incorporeal would be fine then.

Earthquake-more powerful to knock out towers/maybe damage moat

Yes,that might do the trick.It could also have some effect on the enemy(maybe reducing the initiative to walkers)

Fire wall-? not damage your own troops?

Just make it bigger and meaner.

Summon elementals-back to 1.0 version
Arcane armor-fine

I agree here.

Summon Phoenix-Reduce stats of summoned phoenix

How about it has 0 initial att and def,and add 1 for every SP?Starting HP of 200 plus 20 for every SP,and starting damage of 30-30 with +1 to minimum and +2 to maximum for every SP?

[soupnazii]

Why can't Raise dead work like Heal on normal troops?

because its called "Raise Dead", not "Heal the Ones Who Are Nearly Dead". since necromancers are what they are, they actually get to revive their units completely while others just control them until battle is over or something.

How about it has 0 initial att and def,and add 1 for every SP?Starting HP of 200 plus 20 for every SP,and starting damage of 30-30 with +1 to minimum and +2 to maximum for every SP?

0 initial plus one for every sp is way too weak. remember that this is supposed to be (one of) the strongest level 7, its a level 5 spell, you only get one of them, and its supposed to scare the other side. personally, i think its fine the way it is ( although maybe the mana cost should be upped) but if you really think it should be nerfed maybe you could give them 0 starting att/def plus 2 (or 2.5) for every SP? that way, if you have 20 sp (which should be alot) the phoenix gets 40 or 60. i still think thats not enough though.

[asandir]

here i agree with DL for the changes to Summoning spells, except the phoenix, i don't think it's too overpowered, it is just powerful

[Arqane]

One of the reasons why I like the Summon spells the way they are, is that the most powerful are reliant on still having at least a bit of an army with you.

While summoners should be able to augment a large army, having someone who always went around with minimal units would be too powerful. SP is good, since you can avoid it or kill it. Even PF is good, since it's only as powerful as the stack it copies.

Well, I would change one thing with PF. Make it so that you can't cast PF on another PF. That way killing the original stack is a very viable strategy. It may hurt alot, but it could still save you in the end to ignore the bigger unit so that more can't be copied.

Summon Elementals is very powerful in the beginning, and much weaker later, fine by me. Wall of Fire can be used to great effect in certain cases, especially larger battles. If you play it right, you can force melee/flyers to sit in it for a few rounds while they try and chomp your archers. Mines are interesting, and do potentially do the most damage/mana of any spell I believe. Mines have been in alot of Heroes games, and they've always been the same way, extremely powerful if used right or you're lucky, otherwise mostly useless.

Raise Dead I would like to see at L3, I think. That was an old balance from all the other Heroes games, that you generally needed some magic skill to make it useful or to use it at all.

So basically they all have times when you'd want to use them, and times when you'd want to do something else. I think they're all pretty much fine barring minor tweaks.

EDIT: To avoid the double post...

A good question is this. Do you fear someone with a high spellpower casting Summon Phoenix, Resurrection, or Empowered Implosion more? If they're all pretty scary to you, then I find them well balanced L5 spells.

[asandir]

the problem is that only one faction can cast the empowered implosion .... the vanilla flavoured version is not really that scary

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Other spells are so very much more powerful than SP. SP should remain as is, as should PF.

Nerfing those 2 means there are no more summon spells that a summoner can use to win battles. Will the summoner then use Fist (single stack weak spell), Fire Trap(too random to be useful), Wasp Swarm(too weak, single stack spell), Earthquake (weak siege spell), Firewall(usually useless), Summon Elementals(nerfed to uselessness, very poor initiative), orArcane Armor(single stack defensive spell) to win battles?

We can nerf everything until there is only one school of magic that has anything useful but that will be pretty boring. It will also be pretty imbalancing if the summoning school is nerfed to nothingness for those factions that have it as one of their favored schools.

GOW

[asandir]

a good point GOW, and as i keep saying, they are not really overpowered, they are just powerful

[DaemianLucifer]

So basically they all have times when you'd want to use them, and times when you'd want to do something else. I think they're all pretty much fine barring minor tweaks.

Not really.I never found a use for fire trap.

A good question is this. Do you fear someone with a high spellpower casting Summon Phoenix, Resurrection, or Empowered Implosion more? If they're all pretty scary to you, then I find them well balanced L5 spells.

Resurrection is useles without a nice army to support it with,implosion doesnt help you block melee units,but SP can be used with a single unit to anihilate any army without a shooter and/or caster.

@Grumpy Old Wizard

I never said that just these spells need a nerfing,but that a whole school needs tweaking.Make other summon spells more usefull,and nerf these three a bit and youll get a very nice spell school.Otherwise,whats the point of having all those summoning spells if youll use just two or three of them?

[MrSteamTank]

Other spells are so very much more powerful than SP. SP should remain as is, as should PF.

Nerfing those 2 means there are no more summon spells that a summoner can use to win battles. Will the summoner then use Fist (single stack weak spell), Fire Trap(too random to be useful), Wasp Swarm(too weak, single stack spell), Earthquake (weak siege spell), Firewall(usually useless), Summon Elementals(nerfed to uselessness, very poor initiative), orArcane Armor(single stack defensive spell) to win battles?

We can nerf everything until there is only one school of magic that has anything useful but that will be pretty boring. It will also be pretty imbalancing if the summoning school is nerfed to nothingness for those factions that have it as one of their favored schools.

GOW

But of course. Because other spells are far more overpowered than conjure pheonix then it shouldn't be nerfed! I'm only refering to conjure pheonix when your hero has 10+ spell power where the attack/defense increase makes them practically invincible.

As for some of the spells you mentioned about the summoning school you could just improve them you know? Fire Trap producing twice as many mines with the ability to provide rough placement(say casting it somewhere will put them all in a 7 by 7 square). Firewall either not damaging your own units, increasing in length, or replacing it's level with phantom forces(which I agree is far more overpowered than conjure pheonix). Summon Elementals was nerfed incorrectly and arcane armor could probably use a slight buff.

I simply don't see the logic of not nerfing something overpowered because their is something more overpowered.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I simply don't see the logic of not nerfing something overpowered because their is something more overpowered.

If there are other spells more powerful than SP then SP is not overpowered.

GOW