Why the dungeon can not be a "might" faction...

[Kilop]

I know that dungeon's units may seem appealing to try to play them might : ie launch the balckies to double kill and tank, teleport assault the hydras behind 2 stacks beeing ataked by the lizards, thanks to tactics, and harras with both the bloodies and the asassins.

Well that don t fit.
In order to do so u absolutely need atack and def since dunjeon atak must be devastating and they have to suffer punishement a little more, then you need luck and leadership to increase dommage, then logistick, the sad must have...
So it leaves one skill slot free maybe two if you skip defence ... but do you really want to see your hydras one shooted by charging paladins???
So no destructive magic ( without enligtment , sorcery and intelignce for mana and mp this skill is useless )
and you end up summoning time to time or empower eldrich arrow.


But most important is the relative weakness of dunjeon units. I know, people will say what about blood furies, they do sooo much dom, blackies are the best , hydras can not die ... etc

Well here comes the architecture of a fight : what makes that one army is able to destroy the otherat the end of the fight ??
Is it pure dommage ?? no it is pure dommage, adaptable, quick, AND sustained.

and of all the creatures of the dungeon onlyone is able to have all of those together... the blacky!

furies are ... dead
Assassins can poison.. but they do 1/4 dom anyway.
minautores are too slow to arrive before the real heat as passed.
lizard are real good ... for their first shot , sadly they don t survive.
hydra one hell of a tank that can act twice or maybe three times per fight ( without counting moving ) and does good dom only if the oponent doesn t anticipate it...
and matriarch are just making 1/2 dom since they shoot .. you will tell me that they are one great shooter, and that is true but a lvl 6 shooter is just wrong: they are weaker in melee and an army need some units that deal AND take punishement .
That is the point of this thread, the real dom dealer of the dungeon is the furies ... well sadly for them they are not allowed to do so since they are so esily killed ...
that is leaving blacky as the only standing power, and that is i believe intended by the dev, cause dungeon has to use its magic, so just try to harass with units , dont let them die to soon in order to your hyper boosted hero to kill all of the opposing force with his spells ...

And that was intended by devs with chain of elements, but since they nerfed it , i d like to see its power restaured to its original state by changing the prerequisite to the ultimate ( namely war ;achines to destructive ) and allow the ultimate to permit warlock s luck and empowered implosion, that should solve their power end game

[Arqane]

Just use a Haven Hero with Dungeon units... works quite well . Maeve around L20 with Mass Haste, Mass Slow and Blood Furies is... well... funny .

[PhoenixReborn]

I think your analysis of how the troops fare in battle is very accurate. When you add in the fact that there racial special is irresitble magic your hero build definitely needs to include magic in the mix.

[Kilop]

Just use a Haven Hero with Dungeon units... works quite well . Maeve around L20 with Mass Haste, Mass Slow and Blood Furies is... well... funny .

Well that one of the point i tried to explain : even with a might hero dungeon is unable to skip magic... this particuliar assortiment of units are just ... not apropriate.
Just think of what could happen with a dunjeon hero leading an haven army... welli prefer not to think about it

[Cyrox]

Hmm good analysis.

I dont think Haven heros will work well with Dungeon units- cuz they get -2 morale penalty for being the opposite aligment. So even if you could use them it's not to their full potential..

Blood furies, Grim raiders, Minotaur guards, all deal good damage but all die easily. What I always do is I withdraw them from combat as much as possible unless I know I have a chance of saving them. Usually I just place my hydras in battle only and begin a bombardment of meteor showers on my opponent until everything is dead.

I think empowered spells used to work with Warlock's luck before the patches came out..and I hope Nival will restore that..because eventually a large might army will outdamage the dungeon no matter what. Plus dungeon have the 2nd weakest ultimate(other than the Knight's)...either they restore the ultimate to its former glory..or make empowered spells work with warlock's luck again...or both...lolz...that'd be ideal..but for me restoring empowered spells with warlock's luck would be enough..

Sigh..teleport assault is a really good tool but I dont seem to have enough skill slots left to use it..anyone knows of a good magic skill combo that includes logistics?

[DaemianLucifer]

I had a very nice combo with mister aaeglr:Logistics,destruction magic,luck,attack and I think I took sorcery.I always pick logistics as soon as its offered.There simply is no substitute for +30% movement.Tactics is also good for blood furries Destrucion,luck and sorcery I dont have to explain.

[Akul]

Of course that you can't play H5 dungeon as a might faction. Dark elven speciality is that that they are a magic faction that plays with very destructive magic.

However, it is posible to play as might faction but only after your hero has large level. Give him dfense, offense, luck and other skills and abilities that are making it a might hero. After some time you may get a powerful might faction.

[Kilop]

Of course that you can't play H5 dungeon as a might faction.
Give him dfense, offense, luck and other skills and abilities that are making it a might hero. After some time you may get a powerful might faction.

Lol you didn t read what i wrote did you.
The point of my thread was that even with might skills dungeon cannot be a good might faction due to its units that is why you musn t rely on might skills apart, maybe for offense as with sorc, enlight dest and logistic let you one free slot.

[MrSteamTank]

Personally I think dungeon would make an excellent might faction. Their units are extra buff and with expert luck, offense, and defense they could easily dominate. I honestly don't see why they don't make a good might faction. Compare their units to the other races units.

Assassins are pretty awesome. Sure they have 1/3 the growth of most tier 1s but they are ranged, have more than double the hp, dmg, and the poison ability.

Blood maidens are the best tier 2. Practically ranged they are basically an ultra fast, no ranged penalty, no melee penalty, infinite shot unit.

Grim raiders are NOT fragile. 60 hp makes them the toughest tier 4 period. The second toughest are probably vampire lords with 35 hp and life drain. They have good stats are extremely fast and are like 10% more expensive and have practically the same growth. These guys in their initial charge RAPE tier 7s due to punching threw 100% of their defense. If they charge and take out one of your weaker units(blood maidens or shadow matriarchs) you can smoke them with a grim raider charge followed up by minotaur guard double attack lizard bite combo. For this very reason I always put my grim raiders in the middle of my army in the front.

Minotaur Guards although not the most useful tier 3 have the most hp and most damage of all tier 3s. Their growth is lower and I'd definitely say they are pretty average as far as tier 3 goes.

Deep Hydras are without a doubt the toughest and strongest tier 5. Although slow with teleport assault they dominate. Excellent for castle defense.

Their tier 6 is pretty close to equal to the other tier 6s. 20% weaker for the ranged ability and spells is a pretty good trade-off imo.

Black dragons are probably the best tier 7. Probably matched only by the titans.

Also considering the magic piercing special of the warlock is near worthless since it punches threw your units magic resist too I see no point in bothering with a warlock hero. Just have your haven/ranger hero cast dark magic to debuff the enemy units while he super powers them with his attack/luck/defense buffs.

[PhoenixReborn]

Grim raiders are NOT fragile. For this very reason I always put my grim raiders in the middle of my army in the front.

Also considering the magic piercing special of the warlock is near worthless since it punches threw your units magic resist too I see no point in bothering with a warlock hero. Just have your haven/ranger hero cast dark magic to debuff the enemy units while he super powers them with his attack/luck/defense buffs.

That makes the grim raiders vulnerable to other units that are 2 x 2, who usually go first like nightmares but generally speaking you are correct.

Also, I don't think the irresistable magic is that useless. It is particularly effective against the wizards and it's nice to be able to fireball the unicorn/hunter/druids and destroy their defense.

[sylvanllewelyn]

Dungeons are clearly a hybrid faction. While they clearly have powerful spells, they aren't a magic faction like academy, because their knowledge plus spellpower is not up to a wizard yet. What their magic is meant to do is play a defensive role, protecting their fragile units by quickly reducing the numbers of the enemy, and then attack to deal further damage. The importance of empowered spells is not there for a "magical onslaught", but rather to put pressure quickly and weaken the enemy's own strategy. Their units don't have the staying power for a grinding fight like necros, and their hero doesn't have the knowledge for sustained magical pressure, so it's a combination of both.

The reason why I don't like them is because their early game is too difficult, and their units are so dependent on their resource-intensive upgrades for critical abilities. Very often, when I play MP with them, I find that I'm either missing in upgrades or numbers.

[asandir]

i think that a mix of the above opinions works best, they can be magic with some of the correct picks made in skill choices, and they can be might, it depends on how you want to play it, if you go for the might path you will use your troops differently then if you are going the magic path ... this will colour your impression of whether the faction is might or magic

i have yet to see a pure might or magic faction in any incarnation of heroes (except of course the barb's with no mage guild )

depends on how you like to play

[Mightor Magic]

I like using the might based Warlock army but I combine Grim Raider's Lizard Bite with Attack and Leadership. I rarely use their Charge Attack as their first attack, their job is to wait until the Flying units and Infantry get across the field and then move into place without attacking.

Hero skills are usually Attack, Leadership, Logistics, Destructive Magic and Defense or Luck {depends on the Hero and what I'm offered}.

Ranged units, Dragons and Destructive magic {or teleported Hydras} against the ranged units and Lizard Bite with +4 Blood Fury attacks and +2 Minotaur attacks for the rest. So that's at least 8 attacks with no retaliation {more with Hydras}.

Aura of Swiftness and tactics allows some pretty nasty surprises with Dragons, Hydras and Blood Furies and also allows me to place Grim Raiders under cover at either side. Hydras always go in the middle and I use multiple stacks of Blood Furies or Minotaurs as I don't like using Matriarchs on Might centered Warlocks.

So my strategy is "Strike fast and strike often but never strike first".

[asandir]

i like strike fast and strike often, but i almost always strike first

[RaSmuShaDoW]

I do not agree with this topic completely

As you all know there are 4 places there skill points of every hero can be put:
- Attack
- Defense
- Spell power
- Knowledge

Now let’s put them into “the most important during the final battle” order:
1. Attack (dealing bigger damage with every unit)
2-3. Spell Power a.k.a. Destructive Damage (dealing bigger damage with you hero)
2-3. Defense (having big defense doesn’t win you battles just wins you some time. Although Defense is a good combo with Attack)
4. Knowledge (practically doesn’t help you in battles – you can get mana in many other ways)

So in my opinion the ideal combo for fighting is Attack + Defense (Heaven hero). Not only you can attack with max power but you also not afraid of retaliation.

The second best combo is Attack + Spell Power (Dungeon hero). Now you have the biggest striking power of all factions. Unfortunately you are very vulnerable so your main job is to cripple the army of the opponent before they strike/retaliate.

Defense and Spell Power and all combinations that include Knowledge are no match for the first to combos. They are only good for duels maybe (as you can win here with only resurrected forces which is absurd).


Now lets talk about the units. In my opinion they are the deadliest of all. Blood Furies and Grim Riders usually move first and are excellent attackers. Black Dragons are slow but attacks like crazy. Shadow Witches have the right spells: spells that can make your units attack stronger or make enemy units weaker. Hydras and Minotaur guards are tanks – they have their uses. Assassins are good only in the early game. Unfortunately most of Dungeon creature lacks defense same as Warlock itself but that just strengthens my point.

With Dungeon you have to strike faster and more times before enemy hero can hit you/retaliate. It is somehow reminds me of Hitler’s Blitzkrieg plan (then attacking Russians during WW2). He knew that nobody could win a log war against Russia. That’s why you have to cripple your enemy fast or you are dead.

This is just my opinion. And the reason why I always play with Dungeon.

[sylvanllewelyn]

Dungeon is really hard to play for several reasons:

- Strategically slow. They rely on burst damage to weaken the enemy, which is good in a pitched battle, but you never get to that point because you always suffer casualties against creeps. But yet they absolutely must creep, because they have the most resource-intensive upgrades too.
- Difficult threat assessment: for most factions, you usually blast/weaken the unit with the highest damage potential, but since Dungeon units can't fight a sustained battle without seriously weakening the enemy, you have to take into account tanks too.
- Ability-dependent. That makes battles even more error-prone, and a simple unexpected spell or lucky strike from the enemy can throw your math into the air.
- Visually unappealing. Whoever came up with the idea of scantily-dressed women, high-heels, whips (!!!) and nipple-rings (!!!) into battle deserves to be fired from Nival, period.

I pick random when I play online, and one time I was forced into Dungeons. My strategy: forget dwellings, shoot straight for lvl 4 magic guild and beeline towards the nearest opponant. My opponant was not happy.

Dungeons can't be a might faction... only in the early game. Their late game is definitely hybrid though.

[asandir]

well thought out post, and i like the way you used dungeon in MP (at least it wasn't aginst me), and i agree that they become a hybrid, which does allow people to play them somewhat how they like, they at least give the option of kind of being a magic faction

[Cyrox]

Dungeon is my favourite faction and I decided to try them as a might faction the other day.

The most crucial part of the dungeon faction is at the beginning of the game where you have to carefully choose the creeps you fight and conserve your troops.

It is hard initially but gets better later on.

I get my big break once I start to get hydras because they start to do most of the job for me. Combined with teleport assault, they're a terror. And it's so hard to kill them cause they're 125 hp, the strongest tier 5 creature around. Plus they have NO RETALIATION. Its easy to get them to a really huge number and when you do, they are really powerful(provided you have teleport assault)

When Im playing dungeon as a magic faction, hydras always act as my meat shield to absorb attacks while I rain spells on my enemy.

I love grim raiders too because they're such a strategic unit. I like to place them beside enemy troops(without attacking) and use another unit to attack the enemy so the grim raiders can attack with lizard bite. I think that's the way you should use them initially, place them beside enemy units without attacking, because they die easily. When you've got your grim raiders to a really terrifying number, they can deal really ALOT of damage.

I usually dont care about shadow matriarchs and shadow dragons because they're so expensive (and not worth the money too) and I usually cant afford them and I'll spend on them only if I have excess money.

Dungeon as a might faction is possible, but you've gotta play fast(take leadership and logistics), and minimise your losses as much as possible.

[asandir]

loss minimisation is key, cause they get so few units, sure they tend to be pretty powerful, but the limited numbers make up for that .... losing 5 skeleton archers, or peasants, or imps or whatever is not normally a huge deal in the early game, but losing 5 assassins/scouts is

[RaSmuShaDoW]

loss minimisation is key, cause they get so few units, sure they tend to be pretty powerful, but the limited numbers make up for that .... losing 5 skeleton archers, or peasants, or imps or whatever is not normally a huge deal in the early game, but losing 5 assassins/scouts is

This is the truth. Dungeon is the hardest faction that doesn't allow any mistakes. You can't loose any units until the final battle and also you must creep ASAP. It's very hard at the very begining but your are a killing machine on the 2-3 week.

Only with this faction you shout out laud then 25 Blood Furies offer to join your army. Only with this faction you hit table then 8 of your Furies are killed by some **** Druid Elder.