Positive and Patient

[DaemianLucifer]

Not true. Sid Meier has got nothing to do with it, just the name. Civ III was designed by "Jeff Briggs, Siren Johnson and Members of Fireaxis" (Credits Civ III).

So?CivII was not designed by sid meier either.Yet it is still called sid meiers civilization 2.My point was that civCTP cannot be called a legit sequel(and is not considered a sequel,but a game on its own).It was a game inspired by civilization,yet not a sequel.There are many diabloesque games there,yet none is called diablo 3.

Not true is further that H V picked all the flaws of H III without even trying to improve them, and not true is that Civ III fixed the flaws of II and added new things. This post of yours is just again a biassed one - you just don't like the game as it has turned out.

Lets see:The 1st day exploit,non stackable dwellings,non flagable windmills,turn retal and flawless victories,no FoW,catapult being destroyed in sieges,uncontrolable balista,uncontrolable towers,............Youre right,its so untrue that HV didnt pick the HIII flaws.

Resources and culture are the first things that pop to mind as improvments from civII to civIII,but arent the only ones.So tell me,how didnt it fix the flaws of II and added new thingss?

[Jolly Joker]

No, I won't start listing those things (the combat system, for example). Because many things are purely subjective. Take simultaneous retaliation. You can go both ways because both ways work. Having one or another is no flaw. And so on and so on. Either you like the way a game works or you don't. If not you maybe start looking for the exact things that spoil it for you. But many of those are purely a matter of personal taste or preferences.

[DaemianLucifer]

Take simultaneous retaliation. You can go both ways because both ways work. Having one or another is no flaw.

Not really.The way they were implemented both dont work,and could really be improved.But simretal removes one annoying thing and thats loosing a whole stack without it doing any damage.However,both need to work out on retal stealing and many oter things.

[Jolly Joker]

See? That's what I mean. For you it needs work; for others it's okay. It's okay for others because there is no law prohibiting a stack going down without getting an action and you can plan play accordingly, while for you there should be a law preventing that on principle - except that with sim retal there can be spells or abilities like first strike, and without sim retal there can be spells and abilities allowing just that. All a matter of taste and how the game plays and works. Completely subjective.

[DaemianLucifer]

Stacks are just a model of real life combat.And a model has two purposes:To represent the RL as closer as possible,and to be as simple as possible.As long as it is not like RL,it can be improwed.Just because something works,doesnt mean it doesnt need improving.If people thought like that,we would never invent any tools because,hey,foraging for eatable plants works.

[Jolly Joker]

Here you make the mistake to believe it should be as near to real life as possible. With a stack based game this is not possible, simply for the reason that you can't make a stack of 1 Imp using up a correct fraction of space in comparison to, say, 1000 Titans. This is important because I can use said one Imp to deprive a stack of 1000 Angels of the space it needs to attack the stack guarding behind the Imp. Space stealing is as far away from real life than retaliation stealing.
For me it makes sense to keep a game consistent: a stack is a stack. Period.
For you it makes sense to try and model real life as far as possible: fix as much as possible and to hell with the rest.
I think that would ruin the game.
You think it would make the game better.
I trust my vision.
You trust yours.
But the game is Nival's vision.

[DaemianLucifer]

Here you make the mistake to believe it should be as near to real life as possible. With a stack based game this is not possible, simply for the reason that you can't make a stack of 1 Imp using up a correct fraction of space in comparison to, say, 1000 Titans. This is important because I can use said one Imp to deprive a stack of 1000 Angels of the space it needs to attack the stack guarding behind the Imp. Space stealing is as far away from real life than retaliation stealing.
For me it makes sense to keep a game consistent: a stack is a stack. Period.
For you it makes sense to try and model real life as far as possible: fix as much as possible and to hell with the rest.
I think that would ruin the game.
You think it would make the game better.
I trust my vision.
You trust yours.
But the game is Nival's vision.

No,making the game as close to real life is not the priority,but it sure is something worth pursuing.And as I said,stacks are just a model.And that every stack ocupies the same amout of space is a problem of that model.Not the only problem that is.But it can be fixed.Maybe not now,maybe not in 10 years,but it can be fixed.Actually,not fixed,but improved.

[Jolly Joker]

No,making the game as close to real life is not the priority,but it sure is something worth pursuing.And as I said,stacks are just a model.And that every stack ocupies the same amout of space is a problem of that model.Not the only problem that is.But it can be fixed.Maybe not now,maybe not in 10 years,but it can be fixed.Actually,not fixed,but improved.

I agree not even with that. Realtime battles are a lot closer to reality than turn-based, but who cares? Real life has nothing to do with it. Not even in the faintest.

[Meandor]

Here you make the mistake to believe it should be as near to real life as possible. With a stack based game this is not possible, simply for the reason that you can't make a stack of 1 Imp using up a correct fraction of space in comparison to, say, 1000 Titans. This is important because I can use said one Imp to deprive a stack of 1000 Angels of the space it needs to attack the stack guarding behind the Imp. Space stealing is as far away from real life than retaliation stealing.

One of the stupidiest statements i have ever seen(not counting mine statements). If it`s impossible to nicely show 1000 angels, 89437534905 Titans and 1 imp on one battle field then we shouldn`t think about bringing games as close to real life as possible?
And retal stealing can be fixed nicely. Give every unit "power points". When attacking "power raiting" would be calculated for both units(let`s say "power point" X number of units in a stack) if defender has X(insert number after some testing) times bigger "power raiting" than attacker then he retaliates and doesn`t loose retaliation. Problem solved.

[Jolly Joker]

Here you make the mistake to believe it should be as near to real life as possible. With a stack based game this is not possible, simply for the reason that you can't make a stack of 1 Imp using up a correct fraction of space in comparison to, say, 1000 Titans. This is important because I can use said one Imp to deprive a stack of 1000 Angels of the space it needs to attack the stack guarding behind the Imp. Space stealing is as far away from real life than retaliation stealing.

One of the stupidiest statements i have ever seen(not counting mine statements). If it`s impossible to nicely show 1000 angels, 89437534905 Titans and 1 imp on one battle field then we shouldn`t think about bringing games as close to real life as possible?
And retal stealing can be fixed nicely. Give every unit "power points". When attacking "power raiting" would be calculated for both units(let`s say "power point" X number of units in a stack) if defender has X(insert number after some testing) times bigger "power raiting" than attacker then he retaliates and doesn`t loose retaliation. Problem solved.

Actually my statement is even more stupid: a game cannot be brought nearer to real life because there is no connection whatsoever.
REAL LIFE AND GAMES ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.
And Heroes, no matter what number has as much to do with real life than Civilization with human history, no matter the rules. Wake up, please.

[DaemianLucifer]

Actually my statement is even more stupid: a game cannot be brought nearer to real life because there is no connection whatsoever.
REAL LIFE AND GAMES ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.
And Heroes, no matter what number has as much to do with real life than Civilization with human history, no matter the rules. Wake up, please.

Yes,civilization has nothing to do with human history.And games really have nothing to do with RL.Thats why we have sims,collin mcraes rally,panzer general,EE,AoE,RoN,medal of honor,blitzkrieg,.....All those games really have no connection with RL whatsoever.

[stijn]

No,making the game as close to real life is not the priority,but it sure is something worth pursuing.And as I said,stacks are just a model.And that every stack ocupies the same amout of space is a problem of that model.Not the only problem that is.But it can be fixed.Maybe not now,maybe not in 10 years,but it can be fixed.Actually,not fixed,but improved.

I agree not even with that. Realtime battles are a lot closer to reality than turn-based, but who cares? Real life has nothing to do with it. Not even in the faintest.

i agree with this. i don't want 1000 titans to take up 100 soccerfields of space cause that would ruin the game in my opinion, despite it being more realistic. the game has lots of aspects that can be made closer to real life, but it wouldn't be for the better at ALL.

But simretal removes one annoying thing and thats loosing a whole stack without it doing any damage

i like the way retaliation works now, it's one of the things i liked since h2, and i didn't like the way it worked in h4 at all. it might be an annoyin thing for you, but it isn't for everyone i guess

[Jolly Joker]

Well, I know you mean this ironic, but it's still right. All this games have no connection to real life. None whatsoever.
Now, a so called simulation (which heroes isn't, mind you) is measured at how real to life it is. How good the simulation is. Let's take a racing sim. as with all simulators the most important things are missing: Gravity, for one; you couldn't drive the cars as fast as you do because you are probably untrained and couldn't take the g-forces when the car rounds a corner. Same problem with flight sims. Biggest difference: your life isn't on the line. Which makes all the difference in the world.
Now, Heroes is no sim. It's a strategy GAME. you could say that any similarities to real life are pure coincidence.
Therefore any idea of "bringing the game nearer to life" is pure fiction and a complete illusion.

[DaemianLucifer]

i agree with this. i don't want 1000 titans to take up 100 soccerfields of space cause that would ruin the game in my opinion, despite it being more realistic. the game has lots of aspects that can be made closer to real life, but it wouldn't be for the better at ALL.

It may not,and it may.Depends only on implementation.For example,initiative is an excelent ide,but it hasnt been implemented very good,thus tweaking is needed.

Here is an idea how to make it work:Increase the BF size,and make it army dependant.So a handfull of small creatures(peasants and pixies,for example)would fight on small BF,but loads of dragons and titans would use a collosal BF.Also,while a slow army would fight on a relatively small BF,fast units would use a bigger one.So you just represent a single titan with a realy huge tile,and pixie with a small tile.Now add here a modified idea about force ratings suggested above,and a stack of 100 titans would easilly squash that lone pixie and take its spot.

i like the way retaliation works now, it's one of the things i liked since h2, and i didn't like the way it worked in h4 at all. it might be an annoyin thing for you, but it isn't for everyone i guess

Meh,I dont like them both.Id prefer attack speed,which would be an excelent stop to retal stealing as well.

[DaemianLucifer]

Well, I know you mean this ironic, but it's still right. All this games have no connection to real life. None whatsoever.
Now, a so called simulation (which heroes isn't, mind you) is measured at how real to life it is. How good the simulation is. Let's take a racing sim. as with all simulators the most important things are missing: Gravity, for one; you couldn't drive the cars as fast as you do because you are probably untrained and couldn't take the g-forces when the car rounds a corner. Same problem with flight sims. Biggest difference: your life isn't on the line. Which makes all the difference in the world.
Now, Heroes is no sim. It's a strategy GAME. you could say that any similarities to real life are pure coincidence.
Therefore any idea of "bringing the game nearer to life" is pure fiction and a complete illusion.

And space simulations that astronauts go through arent simulations because their lives arent on the line?Flight simulators that are now experimented with by some militaries arent actually simulations because their lives arent on the line?

And what are you talking about race sims being no sims at all?My neighbour in the old neighbourhood happens to be an ex rally driver and he said that collin is a pretty good sim.Am I to asume that hes lyying because you say that its not realistic?

You obviously have no idea what a simulation is since you are saying stuff like that.

And if games have no connection with RL whatsoever,why the hell are devs always trying to make them more realistic?Why does civ have so many historical data?Why did they add bulletholes to shooters?Its just cosmetics you know.It doesnt affect the engine,or the difficulty of the game.But it does make it more realistic.Why do gaming companies invest so much in VR technology if games have no connection to RL whatsoever?Bored?No,its because consumers whant to enter the games,to feel them like they feel reality.

Honestly JJ,your arguments became so weak lately.

[Mytical]

Sorry just have to say this. This thread is getting way of topic and nearing a 'flame' war. I would hate to see this thread closed. Maybe a ceasefire or move to another thread?

Now as for positive...so far I remain reservidely optimistic. As for patience...well that is getting in short supply hehe. Where the heck is the map editor?! I can't extend august forever on my calendar! At this rate All Hollows Eve will be in JULY!! Hope they put it out soon! Later all.

[DaemianLucifer]

Sorry just have to say this. This thread is getting way of topic and nearing a 'flame' war. I would hate to see this thread closed. Maybe a ceasefire or move to another thread?

Your right.If reason cannot change his mind,nothig can.So Ill just stop posting here.

Unless someone else adds something new and interesting to argue,of course

[asandir]

*phew*

cause that was starting to get ugly

thanks mytical, for stopping that - maybe another one for the praise thread??

[Arqane]

It's interesting someone brought up H2 vs. H3 way back somewhere in the thread. There was a huge difference around that time in gaming, and that was reliance on the Internet.

For H2 and previous, games had to be finished before they were sent out. You didn't have much of a chance to fix any errors that you had made. If you had too many, you would have very low sales and pretty much ruin your reputation.

Since patches became widely available on the internet, many computer applications, and especially games, have become just pathetic. There's really no other way to say it. What computer game companies are selling these days are worse than what clothing companies sell at Walmart. It's like going to McDonald's and paying for a Quarter Pounder meal, and having them give you the bag with some fries, and have you wait for the rest of the meal. Then when they come to you, they give you a box with a bun in it, and say the meat is in the mail, and your drink will be coming sometime in the next few months. Obviously you wouldn't accept that, but we do with games these days.

Is it the designers fault? Almost never... people who create games generally want them to be the best with all the best features, and will try and do that for you. Is it the companies? Sure, they're a big part of the problem. They seem to think it pays to put games out earlier and let people patch them later. With no contrary evidence (and they don't care to get it), they'll go with this system. Is the problem because of us? Yep, it's our fault as well. We buy the pieces of unfinished **** that get put out anyway.

So to sum up, Ubi is no more at fault than the rest here. As I've heard, the promise of a map editor and other pieces was a mistake (as far as when it was planned to happen), and that's very possible. The best thing we can do is try and help any future games by literally letting the publishers know that we'll wait for a game to be finished if it's better.

[asandir]

Since patches became widely available on the internet, many computer applications, and especially games, have become just pathetic. There's really no other way to say it. What computer game companies are selling these days are worse than what clothing companies sell at Walmart. It's like going to McDonald's and paying for a Quarter Pounder meal, and having them give you the bag with some fries, and have you wait for the rest of the meal. Then when they come to you, they give you a box with a bun in it, and say the meat is in the mail, and your drink will be coming sometime in the next few months. Obviously you wouldn't accept that, but we do with games these days.

that was one of the best analogies i've ever read

unfortunately, they are no more at fault than the others, cause they're all at fault for doing basically the same thing, it's a disgrace, and the solution to "not buy, til it works" doesn't actually work, cause how will you know that it doesn't work if you don't buy it? trust internet opinion?? dangerous