The End of Deconstruction

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HodgePodge
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Unread postby HodgePodge » 06 Jun 2007, 17:39

winterfate wrote:
HodgePodge wrote:Oooh, there's a good idea … if fact, let's remove the whole GAME (H5) entirely and start over.
A brilliant idea! :devious:

I hope TotE addresses some of these balance issues...but that's a blind and hopeless hope... seeing how badly unbalanced certain parts of the game are. :sad:
And by "let's remove the whole GAME (H5) entirely and start over" I meant:
  • - different developer
    - different publisher
    - non-cheating AI
    - fix game-stopping bugs & glitches, instead of fixing stuff that isn't broken
    - different town screen design
    - easier-to-use interface
    - more towns allowed on maps
    - graphics which don't interfere with gameplay
    - no insipid cut-scenes
    - no hiddeous voice acting
    - campaigns which can be played in any order
    - more maps
    - maps where the win condition isn't either defeat all enemies or find Tear of Asha
    - clearly defined & easy to see revealed Puzzle Map
    - bigger variety of creatures (ie: most Dungeon creatures are Dark Elves)
    - original Treant design reinstated
    - every alignment represented in subsequent expansions
    - user-friendly cheat codes & console
    - user-friendly map editor & campaign editor (most important!)
These are just some of the aspects & annoyances which make Heroes 5 a less desirable game to play.
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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 06 Jun 2007, 18:06

:lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu:

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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 06 Jun 2007, 18:18

We all know you hate the game, HodgePodge. I think your dislike is a little irrational. There are things that could be improved, sure, but what game doesn't have these?

Let's consider:
HodgePodge wrote: - different developer
- different publisher
Even if I grant you that Ubisoft and Nival are bad in their respective roles, there's no assurance that another developer or publisher would be better. Frankly, regardless of how I feel about H5, I think that Ubisoft and Nival are taking the game in the right direction. The rescued what was essentially a dead franchise and gave it life again. There will most likely be an H6. Who could have said that with confidence 2 years ago? Nobody. You may not like H5, but you should be thankful that someone is out there trying to make new games with the Might and Magic name. Maybe this one was a miss. That's your opinion, but if NOBODY makes a HoMM, there's not even a chance of a hit. That's a fact.
- non-cheating AI
The H4 AI was worse. Where's your criticism of that?
- fix game-stopping bugs & glitches, instead of fixing stuff that isn't broken
Such as? My game works fine. Aside from a crash caused by patching in the middle of a map, I haven't had a single crash to the desktop. Only one map that I played had to be started over because of a bug.
- different town screen design
I have mentioned the weaknesses of the town screen design in my article. They are there. But again, H4's towns were awful looking. So what - you can't expect every aspect of a game to be perfect.
- easier-to-use interface
I disagree. The H5 interface is very easy to use.
- more towns allowed on maps
No comment. I was not aware there was a limit.
- graphics which don't interfere with gameplay
I assure you that any developer trying to rescue a computer game brand name that was essentially dead would have made the same sort of graphically intense game that Nival/Ubisoft did. There's no way they would take the risk of publishing a game with sub-par visuals. I agree there are downsides to the flashy visuals. I dedicated a good chunk of my article to it. But that's what you are going to get these days from commercial publishers.
- no insipid cut-scenes
- no hiddeous voice acting
They are bad. The voice acting is not as bad as the cut scenes. But NONE of the HoMM games have been stellar in this regard.
- campaigns which can be played in any order
Many games have this trait. So what - that's such a minor thing in the grand scheme. You're just bickering because you have a chip on your shoulder.
- more maps
By my count, H3: ROE had 21 campaign maps. H4 had 34 maps. H5 had 30. Doesn't seem like they're that far off the mark. I'm not sure of the total number of stand-alones, but in the long run the stand-alones are usually far inferior to user-made maps anyway, so I don't see the difference.
- maps where the win condition isn't either defeat all enemies or find Tear of Asha
Surely you can script any ending condition you want. I can think of a number of campaign maps in H5 - and I've played only about half of them - where the win condition was not one the two you mention.
- clearly defined & easy to see revealed Puzzle Map
Huh?
- bigger variety of creatures (ie: most Dungeon creatures are Dark Elves)
The creature lineup in H5 is stronger than any other HoMM game yet, at least from a skills standpoint. I'd rather have that than a bunch of creatures that are difference in appearence but basically all play the same. Of the things that H5 does not do right, creature variety is not one of them.
- original Treant design reinstated
Yes, I'm sure that has anything to do with Ubisoft being a bad developer.
- every alignment represented in subsequent expansions
The number of campaign maps in the expansions compares very favorably with past expansions. If they made a campaign for every old faction PLUS the new faction, it would be too much to expect from an expansion. You need to have more reasonable expectations.
- user-friendly cheat codes & console
You are criticising a game for not having a convenient method for you to cheat?
- user-friendly map editor & campaign editor (most important!)
Here we agree, if the editor is as bad as has been advertised. I still haven't opened it.

You are entitled to your opinion, HodgePodge, but the fact that you cannot acknowledge any strengths to a good game that you happen to not like, tells me that there are other factors contributing to your constant scathing remarks about it. I didn't really like H4, and I thought a lot of things were done poorly, but I acknowledge many good things the game had to offer. It's called being objective.
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Unread postby Bandobras Took » 06 Jun 2007, 18:21

HodgePodge wrote: - non-cheating AI
Good luck on that one; even the Civ 4 AI cheats.
- easier-to-use interface
But for heaven's sake, keep the move key as "M!" :)
- graphics which don't interfere with gameplay
It is rather annoying to have mapemakers able to hide things behind the terrain, like in Heroes 2, 3, and 4. :)
- campaigns which can be played in any order
I disagree. I think the campaigns should follow the H2 original model.
- every alignment represented in subsequent expansions
That's just weird. :)
- user-friendly map editor & campaign editor (most important!)
Here I'll lend my full support. The harder an editor is to use, the quicker the game dies. The NWN2 editor is apparently great if you can tell heads from tails, but that doesn't help those of us who want to do something with it.

More specifically with regard to the editor:

- scripting in Multiplayer maps.
- scripting in Multiplayer maps.
- scripting in Multiplayer maps.

I think there was something I'm forgetting. I'm sure it'll come to me eventually. :)
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 06 Jun 2007, 18:52

Bandobras Took wrote:"I disagree. I think the campaigns should follow the H2 original model."
I prefer H3's system where you can play campaigns that happen at the same time in the game in any order, and then get to the next couple of simultaneous campaigns. I like the different perspectives.
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HodgePodge
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Unread postby HodgePodge » 06 Jun 2007, 18:53

Jolly Joker wrote::lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu: :lolu:
Corribus wrote:We all know you hate the game, HodgePodge. I think your dislike is a little irrational. There are things that could be improved, sure, but what game doesn't have these? etc. etc. ……
Thanks guys for your input. My list above achieved its intended and desired reaction! :-D
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Unread postby Corribus » 06 Jun 2007, 18:56

@TT

I agree. I liked this model the best, as well. H2's was nice in that it allowed you to "play history" to two different conclusions, but H3's allowed you to see the same timeline progressing from many angles. I did not like the vignette style of H4's, although the individual campaign stories were not in themselves that bad. H5's is just very linear. Even so, I do not have that much a problem with it. I'm enjoying the campaigns and I guess that's all that matters to me.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 06 Jun 2007, 19:23

You're enjoying the H5 campaigns?! You have the game on mute, right...

But i've always preferred story/storytelling over everything else.
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Unread postby Corribus » 06 Jun 2007, 19:29

In the end, I do as well, but I've never played - or enjoyed - the campaigns for the stories. I enjoy the campaigns to get me acquainted with and excited about the game itself, and give me ideas for my own maps. For good stories and the best single player experiences, user made maps are the way to go anyway.
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Unread postby asandir » 07 Jun 2007, 03:26

There've certainly been stories within the campaigns that I have enjoyed, but I agree that in the main they're not the best
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 07 Jun 2007, 13:46

The best, certainly not, but compared to H5's....

The point was that a horrible story will ruin a campaign completely for me.
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Unread postby Corribus » 07 Jun 2007, 14:23

H5's story isn't any worse or better than any of the other ones.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 07 Jun 2007, 14:58

Right.... ;| :disagree:
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Unread postby Corribus » 07 Jun 2007, 15:07

Why was it worse? Cliched plot? yeah... but so was every other one. Cut-scenes? Terrible, but no HoMM has had good cut-scenes. Characters? Few of the HoMM games have had memorable characters.
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Unread postby HodgePodge » 07 Jun 2007, 16:41

Corribus wrote:Why was it worse? Cliched plot? yeah... but so was every other one. Cut-scenes? Terrible, but no HoMM has had good cut-scenes.
H5 was the ONLY HoMM with cut-scenes and they were so awful that if I never see another cut-scene, it will be too soon!
Corribus wrote:Characters? Few of the HoMM games have had memorable characters.
WHAT??!!?? 8|

Memorable Characters:
  • - Roland Ironfist
    - Archibald Ironfist
    - Catherine Gryphonheart
    - Gelu
    - Ryland
    - Solmyr
    - Astral
    - Gem
    - Lord Haart
    - Sandro
    - Lorelei
    - Crag Hack
    - Yog
    - Alamar
    - Emilia Nighthaven
These are just a few of the never-to-be-forgotten characters I still vividly remember … and always will … from HoMM games past.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 07 Jun 2007, 16:47

How about mentally challenged characters that annoy with their mere presence, twists a retarded monkey could see a mile away, cut-scenes that made my eyes bleed. As i said before, it's not the story, but the storytelling that's awful.
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Unread postby Corribus » 07 Jun 2007, 16:58

HodgePodge wrote:"H5 was the ONLY HoMM with cut-scenes and they were so awful that if I never see another cut-scene, it will be too soon!
"
I consider the short animated scenes in between the maps in the H3 campaigns to be cut-scenes, and no, they weren't very good.
Memorable Characters:
  • - Roland Ironfist
    - Archibald Ironfist
    - Catherine Gryphonheart
    - Gelu
    - Ryland
    - Solmyr
    - Astral
    - Gem
    - Lord Haart
    - Sandro
    - Lorelei
    - Crag Hack
    - Yog
    - Alamar
    - Emilia Nighthaven
These are just a few of the never-to-be-forgotten characters I still vividly remember … and always will … from HoMM games past.
These were all just cardboard cut-outs. Sure, I remember their names. But that's about it. About the only character who was truly interesting in any of the HoMM campaigns was Gauldoth.
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 07 Jun 2007, 17:12

Corribus wrote: I consider the short animated scenes in between the maps in the H3 campaigns to be cut-scenes, and no, they weren't very good.
H2 had them too. Plus, at the time they looked great, and where believable as BF briefings.
Corribus wrote: About the only character who was truly interesting in any of the HoMM campaigns was Gauldoth.
Tawny not good enough for you? :mad:
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Unread postby Corribus » 07 Jun 2007, 17:21

Seriously - the old cut-scenes weren't really that inspiring, either. Certainly, I think you would agree that they were not the highpoint of the game. Although, I don't put it past you TT to disagree with anything. ;)
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 07 Jun 2007, 17:32

Not my fault you're all bloody wrong most of the time.

Sure they weren't award worthy or anything, but compared to H5's they're Oscar material.
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