MM7: Character Development

[MaxKnight]

So, I got back into playing Might and Magic 7 last week, and have found myself playing two different parties at the same time; Druid-Thief-Cleric-Sorcerer for a Path of Light playthrough, and Druid-Ranger-Monk-Cleric for a Path of Dark playthrough.

What I'd like, though, are suggestions on how to develop these characters. All characters have Learning, with everyone in the PoL group at Expert, and only the Cleric in the PoD group at Expert. The split of Misc. Skill is somewhat obvious (Druid with Alchemy, Meditation, [ID Item], Thief with Disarm, Stealing, Perception, Armsmaster, Ranger with ID Monster, Perception, Monk with Body Building, Disarm, Armsmaster, Cleric with Merchant, Meditation, Repair Item, and Sorcerer with ID Item, ID Monster, Meditation), and Weapon and Armor skills go as needed (Druids/Thief/Sorcerer with Dagger, Ranger with Axe, Monk with Unarmed/Staff, and Clerics with Mace on weapons; Clerics/Ranger with Chain, Clerics with Shield, Druids/Thief/Sorcerer/Monk with Leather, Monk with Dodging on armor; everyone with Bow).

Magic is a somewhat different perspective; all who are capable of magic will at least learn it. I'm developing the Druids as Mastering primarily Earth, Water, and Body magics, Clerics develop everything at Grand Master, and the Sorcerer will focus on Fire, Air, and Water in that order. The Ranger, Monk, and Thief will do what they can when Magic becomes available, but will only cast when absolutely necessary.

What I'm mostly looking for, is some kind of guideline on what order to develop their skills, and when to develop them. I'm notoriously bad at knowing when to put Skill Points into my skills, and easily make mistakes concerning what points have gone where.

Any ideas? I can compile this information into a Really Long List, but only if I'm asked to.

[HodgePodge]

If you're not going to have any Elemental Magic or Resistance either, I'd make sure all of my characters could get as many HEAL Spells as possible. Instead of a Knight, I'd go with a Paladin. But that's just me.

A Paladin can get to Expert in Armsmaster and can GM in Mace; Clerics can eventually achieve Master Level in Mace. A high Mace Skill also has a good percentage of paralyzing your opponents. Both can get to Expert Level in Bow too so you'd have a fighting chance of winning most battles.

I'd reconsider not giving any points in Weapons skills. That sounds like suicide to me. Armsmaster isn't very useful if your fighters don't have at least one good weapon skill.

I'd choose a particularly computer friendly party, consisting of PC PC. They'd all be capable of using Bows & Mace for combat, Shield & Chain for defense. Plenty of Healing, Curing & Bless spells too.

There are a quite a few offensive spells in the Self Magic Arsenal (Harm & Flying Fist - Physical Damage) (Psychic Shock & Mind Blast - Mind Damage) (Spirit Lash - Spirit Damage in close encounters). And don't overlook the ever so popular Mass Fear, Berserk, Charm, Turn Undead & Enslave.

Then, you can always hire a Gate Master & a Wind Master for the Town Portal & Fly Spells. You should probably search for a few Rings of Disarming too.

Good Luck.

[MaxKnight]

I somehow get the feeling you have me confused with somebody, HodgePodge. I have Elemental Magic all over the place (from the Sorcerer and Druid in the PoL party, and from the Druid in the PoD party). I also have no Knights anywhere in either party!

Also, I haven't said how many points I am or not putting into my characters (I was actually asking for advice on what to develop and when), and my two parties are already set in stone here, so the party suggestion is kinda .

If you want me to, I can provide a listing of which skills both parties have, and at what expertise levels. Shall I?

[HodgePodge]

I somehow get the feeling you have me confused with somebody, HodgePodge. I have Elemental Magic all over the place (from the Sorcerer and Druid in the PoL party, and from the Druid in the PoD party). I also have no Knights anywhere in either party!

Also, I haven't said how many points I am or not putting into my characters (I was actually asking for advice on what to develop and when), and my two parties are already set in stone here, so the party suggestion is kinda .

If you want me to, I can provide a listing of which skills both parties have, and at what expertise levels. Shall I?

Sorry, you're right. There is another thread in which the writer is not using any elemental magic and depriving his Knight of any weapon skill advancement. Just completely ignore me. I just went crazy and never returned.

[MaxKnight]

I suppose I shall supply my list. Perhaps someone would be willing to give me some pointers after this?

Path of Light Party: Party members level is 11. Currently in Tularean Forest, completed the Signet Ring and Faerie Mound Quests, as well as the Quill for Norbert Thrush Quest. Story-wise, I've cleared out the goblins from the castle, and have yet to enter Barrow Downs. Skills are as follows (WARNING, VERY LONG LIST AHEAD):

Carter the Human Druid
Bow - 1
Dagger 2
Leather - 1
Shield - 1
Fire - 1
Earth - 4
Body Expert - 4
Alchemy Expert - 4
Learning Expert - 6

Roderick the Human Thief
Bow - 3
Dagger Expert - 4
Leather - 4
Shield - 1
Learning Expert - 4
Disarm Trap Expert - 6
Perception - 4
Stealing - 1

Serena the Dwarf Cleric
Bow - 1
Mace - 1
Chain - 2
Shield - 2
Spirit Expert - 5
Body Expert - 5
Learning Expert - 4
Meditation Expert - 4
Merchant - 3

Alexis the Elf Sorcerer
Bow - 1
Staff - 1
Leather - 2
Fire Expert - 6
Air Expert - 5
Water Expert - 5
ID Item Expert - 4
Learning Expert - 6

Path of Dark Party: Party members level is 7/eligible for 8. Currently in Tularean Forest, completed the Faerie Mound Quests, as well as the Quill for Norbert Thrush Quest. Story-wise, I've cleared out the goblins from the castle, and have yet to enter Barrow Downs. Skills are as follows:

Monica the Human Druid
Bow - 1
Dagger - 1
Leather - 1
Fire - 4
Water - 1
Earth - 1
Body - 2
Alchemy Expert - 4
Armsmaster - 1
Learning - 5
Meditation - 3

Margaret the Elf Ranger
Axe Expert - 4
Bow - 4
Armsmaster - 1
Body Building - 1
Learning - 5
Perception - 1

Trent the Goblin Monk
Bow - 1
Unarmed Expert - 4
Dodging Expert - 4
Armsmaster - 1
Body Building - 2
Learning - 5
Disarm Trap - 4

Joshua the Dwarf Cleric
Bow - 1
Mace - 1
Chain - 1
Shield - 1
Spirit Expert - 4
Mind - 1
Body - 4
Body Building - 1
Learning Expert - 5
Meditation - 1
Merchant - 1
Repair Item - 4

I know this was long, but I don't know of a better way to represent these images (currently no screenshots available). Any help will be appreciated!

[HodgePodge]

The one thing I would change is instead of building up Fire Magic for your Sorcerers, I would put most of my skill points into Air & Water. Air & Water, in my opinion are much better Elemental Magics than Fire & Earth.

Air Magic not only has the Fly Spell but also the Invisibility Spell. Both require a high skill level & points to work effectively. Lightning Bolt is a pretty good offensive spell, but I perfer Ice Bolt because it seems to hit more accurately and do more damage.

Water Magic provides Town Portal & Lloyds Beacon but also has a few excellent offensive spells, particularly Ice Bolt (low cost, good damage). Both Poison Spray & Acid Spray are great too because most creatures have no resistance or immunity to them. Enchant Item is also a spell you'll want to get familiar with.

You will want to get Expert & Master Levels in Air & Water as soon as possible. Later, after your Sorcerer's second promotion, get GM Water & Air as soon as possible too. The best thing about Earth Magic is the Telekinesis Spell.

…………… ……………

Self Magics - Spirit, Mind, Body: Body Magic is more important than Spirit or Mind, especially early on. I'd put most, if not all Self Magic skill points in Body Magic, as the Heal spell is directly affected by the number of skill points and level of expertise. Get your Priests (1st Promotion) to Master Level as soon as possible. You may also want to get your Cleric/Priest to Expert Level in Mace. (Actually, my favorite weapon choice.)

Druids seem to have the hardest Promotion Quests. First one is to visit 3 Druid Shrines. One of the Shrines isn't even available until you complete the Priest Quest; so I seldom use Druids in my party. Not only that but they cannot GM in Elemental or Self Magics and cannot learn Light and/or Dark Magic either. Druids are also weak fighters too.

Personally, I'd use an Archer rather than a Druid. A fully promoted Archer can Master in Elemental Magics. Or if you perfer having more Self Magics than Elemental Magic, I'd go with a Paladin instead of a Druid. A fully promoted Paladin can Master in Self Magics.

The above are just my opinions. You should play your game the way you think it'll be the most fun (and challenge, if that's what you like).

[MaxKnight]

I use Druids for one real purpose only: Black Potions. They can also split the Magics between each other pretty well, taking on a little Elemental and Self responsibility.

I chose Spirit of Body early, because Expert level Bless affects the entire party, saving myself 6SP that I can use for healing purposes. Also, Between both a Cleric and a Druid with Body Magic, the need for Expert level Heal is reduced. Not to mention that With everybody Bless'd all the time, I can kill things before they kill me easier.

I understand the need for Air and Water magic with the Sorcerer, but I think the points added to Fire are ideal, at least for now. Poison Spray is too inaccurate at long distances (I miss frequently with that spell), and I currently can't afford to purchase higher teir spells.

My main problem is getting ahold of enough Gold to do everything I need (promoting skills, purchasing spells, etc.). I just blew 8000 Gold on getting everyone to Expert Learning on the PoL party, and now I have less than 1000 Gold. Admittedly, The experience bonus is huge, but now I'm basically broke...

I'm surprised you never mentioned anything about the Ranger or Monk, though (actually, Ranger is already promoted to Hunter, but meh...). Nothing special about them, or any of the party's Misc. Skills?

[HodgePodge]

Black Potions can be purchased in both Celeste & the Pit when you get there, so using Druids for their Alchemy Skill is counterproductive (IMO).

Furthermore, my post was already getting too long to include every aspect of your games. The Ranger has the easiest Promotion Quest in the game and well, the Monk's isn't too difficult either. So I think you're okay with how you're developing them.

It seems like you've already made up your mind as to how you want to play your games and develop your characters, and that is as it should be. I don't see any value in giving any pointers if your mind is already made up.

If you note, my last paragraph stated "You should play your game the way you think it'll be the most fun (and challenge, if that's what you like)".

[MaxKnight]

While yes, I have made up my mind on what skills each character will develop, my problem is that I develop them haphazardly. There is no reason or rhyme to it. I wanted guidence on when I should develop them, in what order should I focus, realizing the I have a general idea of where I'm goingto end up.

As for the Black Poition deal, I'd like to save my money for things that matter. As you can tell, I have a bit of a money problem when I play, and I'd like to be able to mix the potions I want when I want them. Rather than having to backtrack to a specific point to get them, I'd like to simply keep mixing until I have them. For me, it's less of a hassle.

So... uh... any idea on how development of all of the skills (not just magic ones) should go from here?

[HodgePodge]

By the time you reach the point of choosing your path, you'll have plenty of Gold & Artifacts to enhance your characters' skills … especially if you get your Cleric to Master Level in Merchant. Your Druids won't be able to mix Black Potions until after their second promotion. By that time, you should be pretty well fixed and be able to afford to by them in Celeste and/or the Pit.

Your unpromoted Thief can get Master in Disarm Skill with 7 points. But with an artifact of 'Disarming' or 'of Thieves' he can disarm traps at the same level at Expert as Master without artifacts. Disarm Rings seemed to be all over the place in my games.

Personally, I'd forget about the Stealing Skill altogether for you Light Path game and use it only for the Lady Carmine Dagger Quest very late in your Dark Game. You cannot sell stolen items for extra gold.

Develop at least one character's Perception Skill to Expert or even Master (Thief & Ranger can Master without a Promotion). You seem to be short on Combat Characters (Knight, Paladin, Archer). Myself, I never choose Knight or Monk because of their lack of Magic. Monks are good fighters, so I would definetely develop his Unarmed, Dodge & Bodybuilding Skills. Also, for all characters, in both games, develop their Bow Skills as far as possible.

Seeing as how your parties are weak on Combat & distance attack, you are going to have to rely on Magic a lot more. Your Light Path game is particularly weak in Combat Skills; still, you have strong Magic Characters … this makes the beginning much harder but the end easier. Light Magic protective spells will really make up the difference.

Without a Sorcerer in your Dark Path game, it's gonna be more difficult, but not impossible. Only your Cleric will be able to wield Dark Magic.

Anyhow, good luck with your games. There are editors out there which will allow you to enhance skills, stats, spells, resistances, even change the race or class of a characters. I won't give out that information unless you specifically request it. But I have them available for anyone who would like them.

Have Fun!

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I'd like to add that I "balanced" (kind of) the classes in the way I play MM7. Middle of the road classes are now much better.

Rangers can now get Expert magic after 1st promotion, Master after 2nd. (Still no magic before 1stpromotion though).
Archers and Paladin can Master Light/Dark.
Druids can GM all self/elemental magic now after 2nd promotion.
All of Monk's and Thief's final class can get Expertise in their magic.
Basically, all but Knight, Cleric and Sorcerer got buffs.

Last but not least, all classes can GM ALL secondary skills (excluding stealing: thief only) and Armsmaster (no change, but now Druid can't even learn the skill).


Since these changes make the game easier, to compensate for all that (and some more), monsters are MUCH stronger. Especially Robots (now deal Light/Dark damage instead of Earth), Tolberti/Robert (same as Robots), Monks, angels, priests of the sun/moon, and others.
Many dungeons now use the stronger monster classes (for instance you can encounter Ancient Wyverns in Tularean caves now!)

[HodgePodge]

I'd like to add that I "balanced" (kind of) the classes in the way I play MM7. Middle of the road classes are now muchbetter.

Can you give a link to your Mod?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

That's why I put "balanced" in quotes. It's not a real patch, I just wrote it down in my manual's chart and use MM7View to temporarily switch classes whenever I need it for Expert/Master/GM teachers, pay the gold, and switch back. I could use MM7View to change the skill directly, but it feels more authentic to pay the actual in game teacher. I wish there was a data file in events.lod with the skill restriction data, but there isn't.

The harder monsters and dungeons though, are a real patch. Those are monsters.txt and mapstats.txt , imported in event.lod via MM7view. I could upload those. Do you want a link to those files?

[HodgePodge]

The harder monsters and dungeons though, are a real patch. Those are monsters.txt and mapstats.txt , imported in event.lod via MM7view. I could upload those. Do you want a link to those files?

I'd love to have tougher monsters & dungeons but I'm hesitant to mess with the data files of my game.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

No need to be worried. Just make a back-up of your file "EVENTS.LOD". It's the only file you're modifying.

http://pages.infinit.net/plague/mm7mod.zip

Fire up MM7 View, open events.lod, and use "import text" for both files I'm supplying.

Robots are MUCH nastier now, they do un-resistable Light/Dark damage, as Energy weapons should (they originally did Earth damage because of a bug) - be on your guard when entering the Lincoln!

Most monsters are slightly tougher. Some are quite a bit tougher (enemy monks, elf archers).

I removed all monsters' class/gender/race hostility preference, so they won't gang up on one or two of your party members too much now. (this was so annoying)

You can encounter the otherwise too rare female elf archers in the Hall under the hill now. I wanted to make them hostile, but I can't find out how, so feel free to whack at em to MAKE them turn hostile (That's what I always do with dwarves and warlocks in nighon tunnels anyway)

Titans were the only monster that I slightly weakened: they are vulnerable to Light magic now, so SUN RAY IS ACTUALLY USEFUL AT ONE POINT IN THE GAME!!! (You should appreciate this HodgePodge since you play only Good path)


Green/Red/Blue Dragons were completely unchanged. I wanted to make the Mega dragon stronger, but again, I can't, the game seems to load its own set of data.

[HodgePodge]

I don't have MM7 View. Where can I get it?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I don't have MM7 View. Where can I get it?

http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/pc/mm7/editors.shtml

[HodgePodge]

I don't have MM7 View. Where can I get it?

http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/pc/mm7/editors.shtml

Thanks, I think I'll give your 'monster mash mod' a try.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

MM7 View lets you also edit your save games. Try it!

Once you open your save game, select the sub-file "party.bin".

That's what I use to change, for instance, my Hunter to a Crusader when he wants to learn Expert Body magic, or Arch Druid to Arch Mage when he wants to learn GM Fire.

[Avonu]

Black Potions can be purchased in both Celeste & the Pit when you get there, so using Druids for their Alchemy Skill is counterproductive (IMO).

I agree with that, but there are two reason to why choose Druid to the party:
1. He can learn elemental and self magic at master (meteor shower)
2. If you turn to dark side, promotion quest for Warlock is very interesting. And even if "award" from this quest isn't powerful, it is (to me) enough to choose Druid and dark side.