Mystery of Sand M&M7

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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GreatEmerald
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 2 2016, 0:31

Baronus wrote:He dont has right. He invent his own weird fantasion. But it is between me and him. He knows and I know. Dont enter beetwen us. Write what you think.


Ha, no. Avonu and XEL II are the foremost experts in MM series lore. I'm afraid you're not really making a good case here.

Baronus wrote:Erathia is Erathia. Erathia in Heroes III is the same continent as in MMVII. There is no two continents.


The name of the continent is actually Antagarich. Erathia is a country.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 2 2016, 7:18

are the foremost experts in MM series lore
...
I told I dont want discussion about Avonu.
Expert is if he wrote with wisdom not a lot.
Its game. And community. Beware for pride. WE ARE EXPERTS AND WE TOLD! Its funny...

I'm afraid you're not really making a good case here.

...

Its your opinion...

I tell Erathia as an example. Its not a philosophy.
I told about facts. You told Frank, Mark, Adam are with me THEY ARE EXPERTS. Its not a discusion but coalition. Its bad practice. Forum coalitons destroying community.
I dont enter in it.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Paviel » Apr 11 2016, 14:35

The name of the continent is actually Antagarich. Erathia is a country.


The continent is also called Erathia, at least in H3:RoE and MM7. They didn't start calling it Antagarich until AB and SoD.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 11 2016, 17:09

Paviel wrote:
The name of the continent is actually Antagarich. Erathia is a country.


The continent is also called Erathia, at least in H3:RoE and MM7. They didn't start calling it Antagarich until AB and SoD.


Can you provide the citations for that? I'm trying to recall instances in either game, and none are springing to mind.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 11 2016, 20:10

I dont want quarrel about words. Its stupid. The most important is general game look.
In MMVII continent name is Erathia.
First map of Antagarich:
Image
As you see look is completly another that in game! Manticores in Nighon eg. It is maximum similiar to game idea. THERE IS NO ERATHIA STATE IN MAP! ONLY CASTLE GRYPHONHEART!
Second map after corrections. It is still Erathia continent but eg. hydra replaced manticore.
Image
And final map Town Portal with eg. cutted snow Bracada. But with Vori which you cant find in game.
Image
So this three ORGINAL maps show us that final game is completly another than first idea!
A lot of things was cutted and replaced.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Paviel » Apr 11 2016, 22:05

In addition to the map, the Arcomage quest in MM7 requires you to win Arcomage at every tavern "on, in, and under the continent of Erathia."

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 12 2016, 14:32

Cool, thanks.
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 15 2016, 12:18

MM7 was not an unfinished game. Things are different from H3 due to the fact that they are different type of games. Heroes 1, Heroes 2 and MM6 all take place in Enroth and all are different in both topography and bestiary (and a host of other aspects as well). The MM world is fluid -or at least it used to be. Some things work better in a strategy game and some work better in an RPG.

The fact that there are things planned but not included in the game has nothing to do with its state of completeness. When you design a game -or a movie or a book or any other form of art- you initially include elements that either are a backup, in a sense, or they turn out to not work so well in practice. There are ideas which work better on paper. There are also elements that get cut out because of other reasons, such as consistency, not fitting with the rest of the stuff, being superfluous, turning out to be boring or simply because the time needed for inclusion is proportionately not worth it (i.e. it adds little value to the game while it takes a lot of effort and time to include it).

That being said, my first take on MM7 was that it seems like the first 4/5 of the game are paced in such a way as to mislead you into thinking you have only played 1/2 of the game. That is helped by the fact that the advisor quests are somewhat reminiscent of MM6's oracle quests, which are far, far longer. That either is a problem with pacing or indeed they wanted to add more content but they didn't get to. We may never find this out. Note that because of the fact that MM7 has two paths, its overall length is directly comparable to MM6.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 15 2016, 15:32

So it is completly opposite. Game is not developed but cutted and mixed. Not better idea but worst idea. I showed maps. ORIGINAL!
People in Tatalia is worst than lizards. They made people sprites and dont lizard sprites so they pasted pepole. Easy. Fast installation not artistic idea.
No Krewlod is worst than existing Krewlod.
Green Deyja is worst than cmentary Shadowspie. Is worst than Barrow Munds! I feel more died climat in BM than in Deyja.
Orcs in Deyja is nonsens not progress. They havent died peasants so pasted orcs and cutted Krewlod.
Harpies in Deyja too.
No Vori is worst than Vori.
etc. etc. I look at resources and there is the same situation.
So much facts...
Its so obvious that I have no villingnes to talk. Dont read Avonu he wrote nonsenses not arguments. You make mistake thanks false arguments. You can be lover of this game but facts are facts. They hit in eyes.
Chaotic packing is very good looking. Not artistic conception but time lack. JVC said it...
I wonder that people can persist with such weird words.
Game bussines produce unfinished games NON STOP! In premieres are alfa version bugged and unplayable games. It is ewerywhere. Players shout abuot it. Its day by day! And this is one of these games as JVC said. Good that is playable but it dont means that is good packing and artistic concepion was realized. Bugs is one thing concept realisation another. If there no much bugs it doesent mean that game is finished.
Finished game is when global artistic conceptions was realised.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 15 2016, 17:05

mate you seem a bit constantly on edge here if you don't mind me saying, have a different opinion on that and we agree to disagree by all means, even though the rest of us actually are substantiating our points and are likely correct on this one lol,

but no good in accusing people that they had no villingness to talk, wrote nonsenses, made mistake or made false arguments, were a lover/fanboy, or persisted with weird words, don't forget the old adage of Bill and Ted mate, be excellent to each other and party on, peace man, you'll probably find we agree with more of what you say than you think if you hear us out lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 15 2016, 17:42

Ok :-) I presented big list of arguments not only one sentence ,,nonsenses". One sentence is ,,nonsenses" but ten are arguments. I told only about Avonu but it is another question. I see that people read his and repeat. I only beware! There are falses! It will make disorder in your heads! But it is only beware! If you want drink this poison its your lose.
...
they had no villingness to talk
...
I wrote:

I have no villingnes to talk.
!!!!
Maybe bad word. Willingnes = voluntary
Willingness means that it is for me so certain/obviuos so I have no voluntary talk about so good looking question.
We are from anothet countries so we must beware to keep correctly sense.
And we talk more about facts than about feelings...

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 15 2016, 20:58

Your points however pertain to the fact that MM7 is different than H3. It is different because they designed it to be different. No need repeating myself here; I'll simply restate that by the same logic MM6 had to be unfinished, which is a ridiculous argument because not only it's by far the biggest of any MM game but it also had the longest development cycle of any of the second-era games of the series.

JVC never said that they planned MM7 differently, he only remarked on the fact that had they been given more time, they would create better games overall, with more attention to detail, more content, better graphics, pacing, etc.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 16 2016, 6:18

MMVII is game in Heroes III world not another game in another world. Model units are the same.
Greenskin orcs NOT BE designed to deadlands as peasants but to barbarian lands. Its CERTAIN for all players who knows MM etc. etc. etc.
You are closed for facts and arguments. Game is finished. End. So I see that any facts dont change your words.
So there is no sense to continuation it. Discusion is if we analyse facts and arguments.
I tell it not for dispute with fanatical game lovers, but for peoples who has open eyes and likes enigmas and thinkig. Its like investigation how it is done and how was idea. Like Sherlock Holmes. I like it.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 16 2016, 10:05

This is not a fact, it's only your view.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 16 2016, 12:15

they designed it to be different.
...

Opinion contra facts. You think they designed orcs to Deyja? And green/desert ground? It was theier ,,artistic creation? REALLY? Have you ever played in Heroes III? Or in MMVIII eg. Shadowspire?
As Jon said they have no time. And thats a reason weird Tatalia, weird Deyja and more, more, more...

No Krewlod is fact.
Orc in in Deyja is fact.
No dead peasant is fact.
Harpies in Deyja is fact.
Green/desert ground in Deyja is fact.
No snow Bracada is fact.
No lizard Tatalia is fact.
Only people in Tatalia is fact.
,,Castle in clouds" is on ground is fact.
Three another game maps is fact.
Words JVC they dont have time to made games is fact.
etc. etc. etc.
An if you want think you can conlude. Why is disorder? Because no time.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Erwinner » Apr 16 2016, 14:00

your whole premise is just Might and Magic 7 doesn't resemble Heroes 3 enough for your liking therefore Might and Magic 7 is unfinished, that is a leap of logic for us mate sorry, it could be language barrier or something I don't know what, it would be better off saying it's not optimal for you personally rather than it's a fact that it's unfinished,

yes everyone agrees no Krewlod and no Vori and goblins in Deyja all that, but that is all a matter of what's in the setting beyond what's in the actual game, there is no notion they had an intention for Krewlod or Vori in the game to suggest they ever would have been in it anyway,
it is as bad as saying that in Elder Scrolls Daggerfall there was no Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Black Marsh, Morrowind, Valenwood, Elsweyr or Summerset Isles so Daggerfall is disorder and unfinished, no way, those places were just not in the scope of that particular game simple as that lol

plus no offense but it might be a bit racist against goblins to say there can't be goblins or harpies in Deyja, what's stopping them and who is the race police to dictate otherwise, if Archibald worked with goblins as well as the undead then so be it, I don't why that is a suggestion of unfinished game at all lol

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 16 2016, 15:58

I have played all MM games and all Heroes games. All of them. The only games I didn't play was any of the spinoffs (Legends, Warriors, Messiah, etc). Harpies were also present in MM6's land of the necromancers, i.e. Mire of the Damned. Which had no dead peasants as well. So using that as an argument that MM7 is unfinished in nonsensical.

I repeat that JVC never said that MM7 or MM8 were incomplete. He said that they could be finer games if they were given more time by 3DO. Nothing more, nothing less.

Plus the Necromancers live inside the Pit by the time the events of MM7 take place. The necromancers lived with the Wizards until they were expelled from Bracada. There's nothing natively haunted in Deyja. Barrow Downs is the equivalent of this.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Baronus » Apr 16 2016, 16:31

In MM VI there is not another peasants. Only two man and women. In MM VI we have one stables one bank one people race, only people. In MMVII we have a lot of factions peasants stables etc for each faction. Completly another game. Completly missed arguments.
Not my liking but game world logic. JVC places orcs in barbarians.
Goblins are A BIG evidence that they planned Krewlod.
Goblin barbarian Krewlod stables in Deyja is a next evidence:
Image
In Deyja locations we see NOT orc but deads.
http://www.wallpapers-games.com/user-co ... lpaper.jpg
You mustnt be a Sherlock Holmes and Scotlandyard to ask why? In hauses these orcs transforming to sceletons? And sceletons to orcs out?
No. Its simple its fast installation. Goblin be not planned in Deyja. JVC is not a crazy and he knows that goblins are barbarians but time was over. And as he said he must made game fast and not like his idea.
I said its so evident...

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hellegennes
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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby hellegennes » Apr 16 2016, 17:01

Baronus wrote:In MM VI there is not another peasants. Only two man and women. In MM VI we have one stables one bank one people race, only people.


Oh, it must have been an unfinished game then, because that's different than H1 and H2.

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Re: Mystery of Sand M&M7

Postby Bandobras Took » Apr 16 2016, 19:09

I'm not sold on Tatalia -- the RoE campaigns make it clear that Erathia owns and occupies part of that swamp -- but the idea that Krewlod assets were merged into other areas of the game because of a time crunch is actually pretty possible.

It would explain, among other things, why Necromancers occasionally summon goblins. That's the kind of bug that can easily be created by hurriedly merging assets. :)

The fact that there are Goblins as peasants in Deyja isn't quite enough, though, as Harmondale has a goblin population, even if it's hostile -- showing that Goblins groups are either nomadic by nature or that the conflict between Krewlod, Tatalia, and Erathia in RoE created a lot of refugees. And I would not put it past Deyja to accept permanent Goblin settlements (RoE establishes that they breed like rabbits, if growth and the fact there are two Goblin creature tiers is any indication) with the intent of harvesting them occasionally for raw materials -- shepherds and sheep, if you will.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.


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