Why did NWC abandon Enroth?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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hellegennes
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Postby hellegennes » Apr 9 2013, 13:39

Arret wrote:Well considering MM8 was just supposed to be an expansion to MM7 until 3DO escalated the project, it makes sense most of the appearances were just cameos.


Really? I did not know that.

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Postby Dharcness » Apr 9 2013, 14:16

Well, NWC could always do a retconn. Sort of what Blizzard does with their warcraft game.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 9 2013, 20:41

Dharcness wrote:Well, NWC could always do a retconn. Sort of what Blizzard does with their warcraft game.


Good luck with that, given that NWC does not exist since 1996 in an independent fashion, and since 2003 in any fashion whatsoever.

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Postby Dharcness » Apr 10 2013, 3:19

GreatEmerald wrote:
Dharcness wrote:Well, NWC could always do a retconn. Sort of what Blizzard does with their warcraft game.


Good luck with that, given that NWC does not exist since 1996 in an independent fashion, and since 2003 in any fashion whatsoever.


Hmmm..it begs the question. Did 3do had any say or direction in how NWC deal with the Might and Magic storyline/plot since they took over NWC ?

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 10 2013, 18:43

Dharcness wrote:Hmmm..it begs the question.

No it doesn't.
Dharcness wrote:Did 3do had any say or direction in how NWC deal with the Might and Magic storyline/plot since they took over NWC ?

Yes, most definitely. Do notice that the last game before 1996 was... Darkside of XEEN. The next game was The Mandate of Heaven. I think the effect is quite visible :) Same thing, although less sharp, is on the HoMM side - last game before the acquisition was A Strategic Quest, the next game was The Succession Wars.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 10 2013, 20:03

GreatEmerald wrote:
Dharcness wrote:Did 3do had any say or direction in how NWC deal with the Might and Magic storyline/plot since they took over NWC ?

Yes, most definitely. Do notice that the last game before 1996 was... Darkside of XEEN. The next game was The Mandate of Heaven. I think the effect is quite visible :) Same thing, although less sharp, is on the HoMM side - last game before the acquisition was A Strategic Quest, the next game was The Succession Wars.


I don't exactly see your point here. What's type of change do you feel is attributed to 3DO, say from H1 to H2?

Before you answer, remember that 3DO acquired NWC a couple of months before the release of H2, so they couldn't have influenced anything. MM6 also started its development cycle the same year. Granted that JVC originally did not intend to continue the MM series, its no surprise that MM6 is so different. Not only that, but several years had already passed between Xeen and Mandate of Heaven, that its not that logical to assume that they would make a game like that, given the huge technological leap. It would seem too old-fashioned if MM6 was more akin to MM5 than it was to Daggerfall, which was a tremendous success at the time.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 10 2013, 21:37

hellegennes wrote:I don't exactly see your point here. What's type of change do you feel is attributed to 3DO, say from H1 to H2?

Before you answer, remember that 3DO acquired NWC a couple of months before the release of H2, so they couldn't have influenced anything. MM6 also started its development cycle the same year. Granted that JVC originally did not intend to continue the MM series, its no surprise that MM6 is so different. Not only that, but several years had already passed between Xeen and Mandate of Heaven, that its not that logical to assume that they would make a game like that, given the huge technological leap. It would seem too old-fashioned if MM6 was more akin to MM5 than it was to Daggerfall, which was a tremendous success at the time.


A Strategic Quest had a lot different gameplay mechanics from the rest of the series, and from The Succession Wars story started to play an important role. Now how much of an influence did 3DO have on this is anyone's guess - at the beginning they were more funding and publishing than a direct influence, yes, but that's an influence by itself. It seems that The Succession Wars went through more QA than A Strategic Quest, for instance.

And yes, the difference between Darkside of Xeen and The Mandate of Heaven is not solely due to 3DO as well. But they were a major factor, as they provided the funding and all. Without them, The Mandate of Heaven may very well have used hand-drawn graphics a la Darkside of Xeen/The Succession Wars, rather than photos of real people and 3D renders.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 10 2013, 21:59

GreatEmerald wrote:And yes, the difference between Darkside of Xeen and The Mandate of Heaven is not solely due to 3DO as well. But they were a major factor, as they provided the funding and all. Without them, The Mandate of Heaven may very well have used hand-drawn graphics a la Darkside of Xeen/The Succession Wars, rather than photos of real people and 3D renders.


I don't doubt that but these are stylistic changes; the question Dharcness asked was about the plotline.

3DO mostly influenced NWC's schedule, I'd say, not their choices of plotlines. I don't think anyone at 3DO had much understanding of the overarching plot in order for them to have an opinion on it. Their decisions were executive and mostly affected NWC's deadlines and the need to create more titles. If it wasn't for 3DO, JVC would have taken his time between titles and would not release games after MM6 in such a quick succesion. Also, 3DO practically destroyed JVC's plans for MM online, which was the reason he sold NWC to 3DO in the first place (ie to acquire the necessary funding for that project).

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Postby Dharcness » Apr 11 2013, 0:23

GreatEmerald wrote:
Dharcness wrote:Hmmm..it begs the question.

No it doesn't.


Oh my god! Love to nitpick, aren't you? Did that particular sentence really warrant your attention?
Last edited by Anonymous on Apr 11 2013, 0:42, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Dharcness » Apr 11 2013, 0:35

hellegennes wrote:I don't doubt that but these are stylistic changes; the question Dharcness asked was about the plotline.


Yes, I was asking about plotline. Why did NWC destroy Enroth and created a new world in MM9? Did 3do tell NWC to do that?

I can see many more possiblity of continuation with Enroth.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Apr 11 2013, 3:54

hellegennes wrote:I don't doubt that but these are stylistic changes; the question Dharcness asked was about the plotline.

3DO mostly influenced NWC's schedule, I'd say, not their choices of plotlines. I don't think anyone at 3DO had much understanding of the overarching plot in order for them to have an opinion on it. Their decisions were executive and mostly affected NWC's deadlines and the need to create more titles. If it wasn't for 3DO, JVC would have taken his time between titles and would not release games after MM6 in such a quick succesion. Also, 3DO practically destroyed JVC's plans for MM online, which was the reason he sold NWC to 3DO in the first place (ie to acquire the necessary funding for that project).


as I mentioned, between those games the plot changed quite a bit - The Succession Wars has a plot that is fleshed out. Same with The Mandate of Heaven. And both are about Enroth. As if 3DO had any idea about the plot themselves, it's anyone's guess again. But then at the end it was more 3DO than NWC putting out titles, so I'd think they did.

Dharcness wrote:Oh my god! Love to nitpick, aren't you? Did that particular sentence really warrant your attention?


You wouldn't believe how widespread that is, given that the usage is incorrect. I always try to mention this whenever someone uses the sentence in the incorrect meaning.

Dharcness wrote:Yes, I was asking about plotline. Why did NWC destroy Enroth and created a new world in MM9? Did 3do tell NWC to do that?

I can see many more possiblity of continuation with Enroth.

Possibly. At that point there was not too much left of the original NWC team, as far as I can tell. 24 people worked on both HoMM4 and HoMM: Quest for the Dragon Bone Staff. Only 12 worked on both HoMM4 and HoMM1.

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Postby hellegennes » Apr 11 2013, 8:39

GreatEmerald wrote:as I mentioned, between those games the plot changed quite a bit - The Succession Wars has a plot that is fleshed out. Same with The Mandate of Heaven. And both are about Enroth. As if 3DO had any idea about the plot themselves, it's anyone's guess again. But then at the end it was more 3DO than NWC putting out titles, so I'd think they did.


I always pictured 3DO's meddling along the lines of "we want another MM title this year, next year you'll start working on H4". Maybe at most something like "use the Ironfists again".

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Postby Dharcness » Apr 11 2013, 10:23

GreatEmerald wrote:
Dharcness wrote:Oh my god! Love to nitpick, aren't you? Did that particular sentence really warrant your attention?


You wouldn't believe how widespread that is, given that the usage is incorrect. I always try to mention this whenever someone uses the sentence in the incorrect meaning.


Wow, since you put it that way. I can see your point of view. Thumbs up to you. :)

Dharcness wrote:Yes, I was asking about plotline. Why did NWC destroy Enroth and created a new world in MM9? Did 3do tell NWC to do that?

I can see many more possiblity of continuation with Enroth.

Possibly. At that point there was not too much left of the original NWC team, as far as I can tell. 24 people worked on both HoMM4 and HoMM: Quest for the Dragon Bone Staff. Only 12 worked on both HoMM4 and HoMM1.


You know, I was looking forward to Ribannah's MM Tribute and MMXAlamar's MMX. I was hoping they will bring something fresh into Enroth. But alas... :(

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Postby Talin_Trollbane » Apr 14 2013, 19:03

Dharcness wrote:You know, I was looking forward to Ribannah's MM Tribute and MMXAlamar's MMX. I was hoping they will bring something fresh into Enroth. But alas... :(


well last time i looked the newest update for MMT was in 2009, so i can safely assume that you can dismiss MMT from the waiting list, if now nothing next to supernatural happens with its developing process, that is.
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Postby DeTHiCa » Apr 16 2013, 1:02

what's JVC doing these days? last I heard, he was working on Command and Conquer...

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Postby Talin_Trollbane » Apr 16 2013, 21:38

DeTHiCa wrote:what's JVC doing these days? last I heard, he was working on Command and Conquer...


still an employee at EA and directing Command and Conquer developement, AFAIK.
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