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H7: Would you prefer 2D or 3D townscreens?
2D
3D
I don't care.
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Heroes of Might and Magic V  → First Month Utopia

by Zilonite

A Utopia during the First Month

The following is a sample-based guide on how to capture a Dragon Utopia with Haven troops during the early weeks of the game (around week 1 to 4, depending on the map and the difficulty settings). This particular sample happens on week 4 of the Heritage map, played on Heroic difficulty.

Such an attack might be successful only if the Utopia is guarded by less than 4 groups of dragons and only in cases where the battlefield obstacles are sufficiently helpful. Therefore, before attacking an utopia with a main hero, it is always necessary to sacrifice one scouting hero. This scouting hero should check, firstly, the number of dragon stacks and their initial placement and, secondly, the terrain of the battlefield. Both of those things remain the same during the course of a game.


1. Tactics phase before the battle. The main goal here is to tempt one of the dragon stacks to fly so close to the Marksmen that they will be able to perform Precision Shot immediately. Also Fire and Acid Breath attacks should be avoided as much as possible.


2. The Black Dragon fell right into the trap. Also, other dragons did not reach the ranks of our army yet.


3. The obstacles on the battlefield should be used as much as possible. Here it is possible to avoid the attack of the Shadow Dragons on the next turn. Although they can fly all the way across the battlefield in one turn with their speed of 9, their 2x2 creature size might prevent them from reaching our army on their next turn.


4.The actions of the hero depend on what he/she has. Main priorities are Bless, Divine Guidance and Haste. If the hero doesn’t have any of those spells, the most likely course of action is direct attack. In this example, Rutger has Divine Guidance, so it is better to use “wait” until the Marksmen or the Peasants are ready to make a move.


5. The moment of truth has come… Take a look at the damage range – while it shows that kills are from 2 to 5, the most likely outcome will be 5. Also check the placement of the Peasants. While blocking access to the Marksmen is their primary goal, battlefield obstacles can be used to avoid a Fire Breath attack on two Peasants simultaneously.


6. You need to be extremely careful when shooting with Marksmen. Basically they should use their shot only when the dragons are within the Precise Shot range, otherwise its better to wait until the dragons fly closer. Usually, dragons will fly closer as fast as they can because the Peasants who guard the Marksmen seem more important than the other Peasants.


7. If the Spectral Dragons are the only ones that remain, it is better to move all peasants close to the Marksmen in order to get Precise Shot. If the Peasants don’t have anything better to do, don’t forget to press “wait” instead of “defense”.


8. Sounds of victory, smell of gold and much, much more...


Comments
michaelg at 2010-10-04 18:14 wrote:
I keep trying this and get attacked and wiped out by enemies in the 3rd week with 100+ archers and 40 peasants and like 30 squires, is this happening to anyone else and how do you gain enough levels or get enough troops to kill the enemy troops on heroic? Either necro's have so much magic that the keep raising the troops I kill, or acadamy wipes me with fireball

ThunderTitan at 2010-10-04 07:09 wrote:
violence solved more problems then anything else in history....
We could argue about how many problems were solved by violence, and how many were stirred by it, and even after that we'll disagree. And it would be way of topic...
But you know what? I will start a thread in the Campfire later, just for this.

And he was never seen again....


BTW, i never said anything about violence not causing problems... but that's just because one didn't apply enough violence (aka left some alive).
michaelg at 2010-10-04 06:07 wrote:
I keep trying this and get attacked and wiped out by enemies in the 3rd week with 100+ archers and 40 peasants and like 30 squires, is this happening to anyone else and how do you gain enough levels or get enough troops to kill the enemy troops on heroic? Either necro's have so much magic that the keep raising the troops I kill, or acadamy wipes me with fireball
lulisz at 2010-09-09 23:33 wrote:
It's not an exploit, its a cunning strategy. I defended my town with ONE skeleton warrior by using spells and towers in H3. Now I'll admit, the enemy wasn't exactly "fearsome", but nonetheless, I managed to defend it. also, there are many variations of this "exploit" strategy (the Sylvan Guide gave a description of how to defend your hunters and master hunters from neutral enemies that you have to defeat to expand that was very similar to what the author did here)
lumpoor at 2009-07-09 13:41 wrote:
This is only an exploit if it's something the creators are against.

If it's a bug like before when a phantom force stopped being a phantom when you cast vampirism on it, that was an exploit, and when ubi saw it they didn't like it.

This however, is something they already know.

If we're not supposed to exploit the flawed AI, then how about you turn on autocombat during every single battle? If you don't want to, that means there's a move better than what the AI would do if it controlled your army, and that means you're doing something smarter than the AI.

Ubi knows the AI is dumber then playuers. That's why they add these bonuses, so we still get a challenge.

Seriously, calling this an exploit is rather dumb
alexanderyu at 2008-03-28 10:38 wrote:
Need only 50+ crossbow (70+ probably safer) with archer commander Dougal (or seige engineer Vittorio, but sometimes very hard to get flaming arrow even when reaching 20+ level) at level 10-13. With expert balista, balista, triple balista + advance attack, archery, flaming arrow + luck (artifact or skill or temporary). Balista alone can kill 3 or 4 black dragon per action! Haven damp cheat! Too imbalance 4 stacks dragon also no problem. Just add some high hp tanker that is useless lor...
alexanderyu at 2008-03-28 06:34 wrote:
Haa! Me 10th Day usually already can go utopia liao if use human!

Muszka at 2008-01-23 01:49 wrote:
violence solved more problems then anything else in history....
We could argue about how many problems were solved by violence, and how many were stirred by it, and even after that we'll disagree. And it would be way of topic...
But you know what? I will start a thread in the Campfire later, just for this.

Ravenheart87 at 2008-01-22 15:34 wrote:
Yeah, I know, I'm a big fan of Evil Dead trilogy, shotguns, chainsaws, Maddox and Quake I.
But I can't kick his ass virtually, and I can't tell him to get the f*ck away in english, if he won't understand it. Second: I'm not really interested in hurting somebody's feeling. I'm more interested in ruling them. And if they can be easily manipulated by words, why would I hurt my hand by punching them?

ThunderTitan at 2008-01-22 14:55 wrote:
violence solved more problems then anything else in history....

Muszka at 2008-01-22 01:22 wrote:
That's why i use myfootinyourass-ish... everyone understands that one. TT and Cassus Belli...

Ravenheart87 at 2008-01-21 17:43 wrote:
You won't believe how many don't understand that langauge. Too many.:( And they always ask stupid questions...

ThunderTitan at 2008-01-21 15:08 wrote:
That's why i use myfootinyourass-ish... everyone understands that one.

Ravenheart87 at 2008-01-21 11:26 wrote:
Sorry. But if someone asks on his mother tongue, you won't be able to kick him out in english.

Elvin at 2008-01-21 09:21 wrote:
English only please.

Ravenheart87 at 2008-01-21 08:59 wrote:
Nincs, de szerintem a képekből elég egyértelmű, hogyan csinálja. Ha mégsem, akkor tessék megtanulni angolul.:P
blackcode13 at 2008-01-20 22:40 wrote:
magyarul nincs elefordítva?

Guarderman at 2007-12-16 08:35 wrote:
With last stand and 2 peasants in each stack, it's even safer
emi_emi at 2007-11-20 15:48 wrote:
thanks Saturas! you made me a happy player :D:D:D

Saturas at 2007-11-18 17:14 wrote:
@emi_emi: Hold the stack with left click then drag it to another slot while holding shift button.

Wraith at 2007-11-18 16:47 wrote:
this is easy also with over 100+ crossbowmans divine strength and good luck or not still,btw you are pretty screwed if there is guards like:8 green,4emerald,6 shadow and 4 blackies
emi_emi at 2007-11-18 16:23 wrote:
can somebody PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO DIVIDE TROOPS?! cause I didn't figure it out yet :(
Edited on Tue, Nov 20 2007, 11:33 by emi_emi

Elvin at 2007-11-14 10:10 wrote:
*Elvin's brain implodes*
MASTER JOANNE at 2007-11-14 08:58 wrote:
i dont like the game really

Wulfstan8182 at 2007-11-08 03:29 wrote:
wow! that was really a strategy and not a hint!
val-gaav at 2007-01-02 14:01 wrote:
@DaemianLucifer
@Qurqirish Dragon

Actually we where talking about h3 fortress and h3 hydras :)... there is no town level there ... and the only thing you need to have hydras + castle week one is gnoll building build on start (which is true on 99% of all maps)

Aside from that you need resources , but as I said on nornal and hard you can do it ...

Qurqirish Dragon at 2006-12-11 18:53 wrote:
It only depends on whats the starting level of your town(and of course what guardians you get in your mines).

Specifically, you need a level 3 town to start, so that it will become level 9 on day 6 (and so the dwelling can be built on day 7). On easy, I think you start with enough resources to build it, but on normal and higher you will need to find some.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-12-11 17:14 wrote:
It only depends on whats the starting level of your town(and of course what guardians you get in your mines).
val-gaav at 2006-12-11 15:06 wrote:
"Hydras in the first week? I mean not to pick on you, Val-Gaav, but everything is so much easier in easy-settings:)"

not on easy ... I actually get them in first week on 100% and 120 % .... with 10 sulfur on start it's easy .... and with 7 sulfur it's also to be done you just have to locate one sulfur pile and you have 7 days for it ...

DaemianLucifer at 2006-09-10 16:26 wrote:
That I didnt know.Pretty useful info.Thanks.

Gaidal Cain at 2006-09-10 16:23 wrote:
Yes, but it will always try to give you a spell you have the skill to learn. It doesn't matter if you have expert light or expert dark when visiting specific utopia; you'll get a spell no matter what school you have.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-09-10 15:19 wrote:
If you dont have the expert magic,and are below level 20,I think it will give you nothing.

Gaidal Cain at 2006-09-10 09:12 wrote:
I doubt that you can get any use of the spell,because youll need expert skill and its just 1 in 4 chance youll get the correct spell,but really thats not really important

I think it'll actually only give you spells that you can learn. At least I've never seen it give me any text about "you find Conjure Phoenix, but you can't learn it".

kingcranium14 at 2006-09-10 02:27 wrote:
People have said that this is cheating, or exploiting, or that the AI is weak, but really, I think it's just really good strategy.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-09-10 00:50 wrote:
You can easily get 150+ crossbowmen in 1 month if you aim for them,and clearing that utopia in one month gives you some 20000 gold,loads of resources,artifacts and experience(I doubt that you can get any use of the spell,because youll need expert skill and its just 1 in 4 chance youll get the correct spell,but really thats not really important).So it really is more than a bit advantageous.If your opponent is your equal,and you both have 50-50 chances of wining that map,suddenly those chances become something like 80-20 in your favour.
Fudashi at 2006-09-09 23:19 wrote:
I really don't want to get into the semantics of the word 'exploit' here, as there has been far too much pointless back and forth on that already. I just have to question the assumption that people are making that 165 xbowmen are procurable in week 1.

Just to throw out some numbers so I'm not making my point blind, base peasant growth is 22. Base archer growth is 12. There is also the horde building that adds 5 to peasant growth for a sub total of 27. As we all well know, there exist the citadel and castle to increase growth by 50% and 100% respectively. The citadel is a level 9 building and the castle is a level 12 building, obviously preventing them from increasing the pool of potential xbowmen we'll have at
the beginning of week 2. Assuming all dwellings + horde structure are built in week 1 (farm is lvl 3 so this is reasonable to assume) we will have 22 + 27 = 49 peasants and 12 + 12 = 24 archers by the beginning of week 2, and 49 + 54 = 103 peasants and 24 + 24 = 48 archers by wk 3 day 1, assuming that the citadel and castle were constructed during week 2. This will give us 103-6 + 48 = 145 archers to play with (the 6 accounts for the fodder peasants), which I'll assume for the sake of simplicity is a sufficient number for a dragon utopia similiar to the one featured.

In terms of costs, we're looking at 500 + 1000 for the peasant huts and farms, 1200 + 2700 gold and 5 + 5 ore for the archer and marksmen towers, and 5000x3 gold, 10 + 10 wood and 10 + 10 ore
for the fort - citadel - castle progression. For the training, we'll need 3500 + 5000 gold, 10 wood and 5 + 10 ore for the training grounds and hall of heroes (which it will be cost effective to build). But hold on a second, we need to build other buildings as well to increase the town level. To get to level 3 we can build the tavern or marketplace,
to help us to level level 9 we can build the town hall as soon as we hit lvl 3, and finally to help us to lvl 12 we can build the city hall as soon as we hit lvl 9. These buildings will cost 500 + 2000 + 5000 gold and 5 wood. The grand total for buildings is thus 36400 gold, 45 ore, and 35 wood.

As for recruitment, we're looking at 103 x 20 for the peasants, and 48 x 80 for the xbowmen. How about training? Well with the best case scenario (xp trainer and hall of heroes) we'll need 97 x 81 gold. Don't forget the 97x30 gold we'll need to spend to upgrade them.
So the grand total turns out to be 53067 gold, 45 ore, and 35 wood. Assuming we need all this by day 15, and we are starting with hard or heroic resources (20 000 gold 20 wood 20 ore or 10 000 gold 10 wood 10 ore) we have a few problems. Assuming a best case scenario ie. mines are found within the first few days at the latest, neither
resource will be a limiting factor even on heroic. The gold is another story. Assuming we upgrade the town hall as soon as possible, we will have 500 x 2 + 1000 x 6 + 2000 x 6 gold which works out to 25000 gold by day 15. So, we're 8067 gold short on hard,
and 18067 short on heroic. On heroic we'll start running into gold problems in the second week for our buildings assuming we don't find a significant external source of gold, while we shouldn't have any trouble with the buildings on hard, just recruitment costs. While I don't have time to do the math right now, suffice to say that on hard, we'll have our 150 xbowmen sometime in the middle of week 3, and on heroic week 4 is a far more reasonable estimate.

Of course, there are other factors. Ellaine starts with at 66-96 peasants, while Dougal starts with 21-27 archers, and all
haven heroes start with 22-32 peasants and 7-9 archers with the exception of Laszlo who is useless for our purposes.
We could find an external peasant hut in week 1, bolstering our production of peasants by 23 a week for an additional 69 by
week 3, or we could find even more. However, gold is the limiting factor here, and even the discovery of an external gold mine
on day 1 would leave us still short 4067 gold on day 15 assuming heroic starting conditions. Estates would help but not by
much; even if we get it on day 1, it only provides us an additional 3500 gold by day 15, hardly making a dent on heroic. By
foregoing the castle, citadel, and fort we lose only 27 peasants and 12 archers for week 3, and save 14500 (without the fort to get us to town level 9, we'll need to build either the marketplace or tavern) gold, a preferable strategy for the short term that brings 108 xbowmen within our reach in week 3 even on heroic (it is an interesting but entirely different question as to how many xbowmen are the minimum required to have a reasonable chance of 1-shotting 10+ leaderless dragons). However, unless we have considerable forces to begin with, assembling anywhere near 145 marksmen
is impossible in week 1, and week 2 relies on several special conditions (ie. starting with a more built up town, hiring/starting
with elaine or Dougal, finding 1 or more external peasant huts in week 1, finding/starting with more gold) which cannot always be relied upon.

Therefore, while the tactics have been demonstrated possible by Zilonite, I think most posters have grealty exaggerated the potential
here for imbalance and abuse. Where he claimed a dragon utopia in one month, many reduced that to 1 week which is absolutely absurd. While taking a dragon utopia in week 3 or 4 is still highly advantageous, it's a quite different matter than week 1 or 2.

Dragon Angel at 2006-08-27 19:37 wrote:
AI exploiting is benefiting of an especially dumb, and unreasonable, behavoir of it.... i.e.

If the AI always tried to chase a faster creature than its own troops, and neglected all other troops of the enemy - and you benefited from this, that would be an exploit.

However in this case the AI tactic is pretty reasonable... clearing the way to the biggest treat, the marksman, and start decimating them... however, you have find a way to avoid this... this are tactics, we like it or not... get a shot of morale for the dragons and you may be screwed, anyway.I

As I commented before, a human, with some luck in the part of the haven player, would have got also loses in this case. (Yep, you can avoid putting your dragons to close while killing 3 peasant stacks), but still you have to kill two more... and you will probably still get at least a shoot on one of your dragon stacks.

ADDED: IF the AI did not attack the peasants, but just waited at their side (and in precise shot range) they left space to fly and attack the marksman, that would be an exploit. Even it would be an exploit if they didn't entered precise shot range, but did not attack anyone because its primary target (marksman) its not accesible, letting the crosbowmans (provided enough shots are at disposal) to kill them at a distance. But in this case the AI is trying, not in the best way, but trying.

If something has to be found "wrong" in this case, I believe it would be more a balance issue (Haven can get a stack of xbowman able to one-shot-kill stacks of 5 dragons in first week), than a exploit issue.
Edited on Sun, Aug 27 2006, 14:56 by Dragon Angel

ThunderTitan at 2006-08-27 19:16 wrote:
well that's part of the AI nature.

And exploiting the AI's nature is what exactly? :devious:

Dragon Angel at 2006-08-27 19:12 wrote:
I got tired of this discussions some time ago, that is in part why I am not much arround the comunity anymore. Anyway, as I was just passing by, my two cents:

AI exploit? Looking at it... the AI will attack the peasants defending your marksmes because it wants to reach the marksmen. Of course, considering all variables it might not be the better tactic. However, due to the limited scope an AI can have (unlees you use DeppBlue, version 101 to play -- and still want to wait like 5 min for the AI making every move), it can be considered maybe not good AI, but fair enough. No problem on the AI here, except it is not equally wiser to an human... well that's part of the AI nature.
Also, with some luck that allows the Haven player to position correctly (and maybe also get turns in the right order), I bet a player controlling the dragons would have win, but suffering a nice amount of losses.

Rule exploit? Well, there are several rules playing in here:
-Battlefield positioning (sizes, obstacles, etc...) and unit habilities are not being used in an unreasonable way here... in fact they are used maybe in the most rational way possible. I can't see rule-bending (what I would call an "exploit") here.
-Creature stacking: here could be an exploit, certainly, based in the fact that 7 stacks of 1 become better that 1 stack of 7 ... and that you can only kill 1 stack in your turn. However this is known enough, and even encouraged (there is a rumor about this, certainly ... and btw talking about peasants and dragons). May be considered an exploit situation, however not a very big one, and not nearly similar to the 7 genie situation of H4, in example.

Map exploit? Well, If you weren't supposed to be able to win that utopia in the first week and winning the utopia unbalances the current game, this certainly breaks the map. Tough, more than a exploit case, i will consider it a mapmaking risk... wich leads me to the summary:

Summary: The possibility of developing tactics like this one, associated to the heavy rewards of a dragon utopia, and the random factor involved, just reccomend to not put the dragon utopias much near to the starting position of a player. Leave'em for the central parts of the map, wich can -anyway- be considered the right place for them.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-29 20:50 wrote:
Mine guardians are set to be of the same difficulty.You certanly wont see a gold mine for one player guarded by peasants and the other by angels.Thats why random creatures are so customizable(well,at least they were)in the editor,so you can balance the map.Yes,a lucky shoot may win you the final battle with your human equal.But he also can win because of that lucky shot,so your chances on that mape are 50-50.Artifacts you both get just change your strategies a bit,and dont ensure ones victory over the other.Players of equal skill dont rely on map to ensure their victory,but on their abilities to adapt to that map and to that race.But if one of those opponents gets an easy utopia in the first map,its an obvious gamebraker.Its just like getting the grail on your doorstep(actually,that happened to my friend ones.He dug the grail in third week,and even with combined forces my friend and I were no match).The odds for a lucky shot winning you a game are very small,and the odds of some artifact winning you the game even smaller.But the odds of easy utopia winning you the game are very high.Almost 100%.Why do you people all complain about balance between towns and creatures if you see this as a perfectly natural thing in a game?

Grumpy Old Wizard at 2006-07-29 19:46 wrote:
Randomness is a part of the game.

Random resources, random artifacts, semi-random offerings of skills, ect. It helps make the game replayable.

GOW

There is a difference between getting 5 ore or 3 crystals and getting thousands of gold,loads of artifacts and a level 5 spell or nothing.A big difference.

Fact is randomness is a big part of the HOMM series, and always has been. Some random stacks guarding a random mine that you need may be impossible for you to take without huge losses whereas a random stack guarding a random mine that your opponent needs can be captured with little to no losses. Without that mine you can't build your dwellings quickly enough and your opponent has a big advantage.

Also, troop specials trigger at random times and when they trigger could be the difference between victory and defeat. And the random spells you get in your mage's guild may not be useful and your opponent may get the perfect spells for him.

I don't see randomness in terrain obstacles as any more an advantage/disadvantage than randomness in other parts of the game. Adapt and overcome. Face the fact that fortune may be with you or against you.

Yes, you may lose (or win) a game due to a random element. However, your overall victory/defeat ratio should reflect your skill level if you play enough games. While I am primarily a single player (and only have dial up so I can't play HOMM5 multi) I have played multiplayer quite a bit and have never cried if fortune shuned me and embraced my opponent.

As in life, so in this game. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes the black cat crosses your path. Deal with it. :D

GOW

Zilonite at 2006-07-29 18:46 wrote:
No problem and thanks for posting it here :-)

Actually i'm considering to switch my nich to Acopy now... :-p
Edited on Sat, Jul 29 2006, 12:50 by Zilonite

Angelspit at 2006-07-29 18:27 wrote:
Sorry about the author name confusion: Zilonite is indeed the real author. My apologies.

Kartero at 2006-07-29 18:02 wrote:
i made an account just so i could comment on this because it was driving me nuts. And thanks ;p

Ethric at 2006-07-29 17:32 wrote:
I think everybody is looking at the word exploit wrong anyways. Exploiting your opponents' weaknesses is kind of the point of the game. You dont just up and change your strategy because your opponent cant figure it out (AI or Human).If you're not into this kind of game maybe uninstalling and trying a game like solitare might be good for you. Nothing to exploit there really.
<br>
<br>Now, on another note if you're saying theyre exploiting a bug, you're wrong. The AI was designed a certain way and that's how it acts.

Except for that it's not "everyone" looking at it the wrong way, I couldn't have said it better myself :tsup:

And welcome to the forum, by the way :)

Sir Charles at 2006-07-29 17:21 wrote:
I'd say the biggest difference of opinion comes from Single players versus MP'ers. Single players are only competing against the AI, hence they tend to play on much harder difficulty modes to increase the challenge of playing against an AI. With VERY few exceptions, all AI's will be inferior to Human players who can change their tactics according to their opponent. So changing my tactics so I can more redily beat the AI is an "exploit" is it? LOL. You can define that word however you like, but in the end it's still the same result. Adapting to your opponent to increase your odds of victory. Of course a human player wouldn't have played it that way. That's why you MP...so you're facing an opponent with unpredictable tactics. Sheesh. All strategies and tactics SHOULD attempt to exploit their opponent. ALL of them. You can spin that word anyway you like, but even in an MP game you're attempting to exploit your HUMAN opponent. I'd suggest we just drop this topic and move on. Regardless of how you view it, it was a very clever strategy and for many players (who might not be 10-year heroes verterans) it's a great, enlightening article.

Vlaad II at 2006-07-29 17:19 wrote:
lmao

Zilonite at 2006-07-29 17:14 wrote:
Huh, 85 comments... Thats something...

Yet, guess, i should add one more - i am the author of this exploit/strategy :-) It seems that mystical dude Acopy is just "a copy" of the guide that LaBoile sent :-)

Kartero at 2006-07-29 17:04 wrote:
I think everybody is looking at the word exploit wrong anyways. Exploiting your opponents' weaknesses is kind of the point of the game. You dont just up and change your strategy because your opponent cant figure it out (AI or Human).If you're not into this kind of game maybe uninstalling and trying a game like solitare might be good for you. Nothing to exploit there really.

Now, on another note if you're saying theyre exploiting a bug, you're wrong. The AI was designed a certain way and that's how it acts.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-29 16:34 wrote:
Randomness is a part of the game.

Random resources, random artifacts, semi-random offerings of skills, ect. It helps make the game replayable.

GOW

There is a difference between getting 5 ore or 3 crystals and getting thousands of gold,loads of artifacts and a level 5 spell or nothing.A big difference.
MER at 2006-07-29 11:47 wrote:
"What the devs of H5 want is pretty shrouded in mystery as far as I can see..."

lol, you're right. If there was a unit Developer in the game it would have special abilities:
*Unbalancer - 30% chance to mess up the stats and abilites of all creatures.
*Buggy nature - 50% chance to trigger a bug on successful attack.

Ethric at 2006-07-29 11:30 wrote:
What the devs of H5 want is pretty shrouded in mystery as far as I can see...

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-29 10:25 wrote:

Clearly, is it? Please elaborate.

It's imbalanced to have an army win against 10 to 1 odds. The devs wouldn't want that would they?!

Cleanpea at 2006-07-29 10:20 wrote:
Hydras in the first week? I mean not to pick on you, Val-Gaav, but everything is so much easier in easy-settings:)

Grumpy Old Wizard at 2006-07-29 07:18 wrote:
Randomness is a part of the game.

Random resources, random artifacts, semi-random offerings of skills, ect. It helps make the game replayable.

GOW

Gaidal Cain at 2006-07-29 07:11 wrote:

Then thy should both be able to do this.

Exactly my point. But since you need some luck with the obstacles, they might not be able to.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-28 21:27 wrote:
Not if every player has an utopia of their own...

Then thy should both be able to do this.

Gaidal Cain at 2006-07-28 21:22 wrote:
And if not for the terrain there wouldn't be a victory either. Both factors are necessary, thus the flaws of the AI is not the primary factor. At least not the way I understand the words.

One can argue as much as one wants, but in the end, both are required. Discussing which is more important wouldn't lead to anything, so I suggest we just end that part of the discussion with that.

Well only one player gets the utopia anyway, in any game, so i guess it's up to the map maker to make sure both can get to it about the same time if they want.

Not if every player has an utopia of their own...

stijn at 2006-07-28 21:19 wrote:
Well only one player gets the utopia anyway, in any game, so i guess it's up to the map maker to make sure both can get to it about the same time if they want. all creature banks respawn. with the 1.2 patch it says 'someone already visited it this month' or something like that.

Ethric at 2006-07-28 21:16 wrote:

Oh, and clearly the designers didn't want this to be posible, so it's an expliot, end of story. :tongue:

Clearly, is it? Please elaborate.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-28 20:58 wrote:
Well only one player gets the utopia anyway, in any game, so i guess it's up to the map maker to make sure both can get to it about the same time if they want.


Oh, and clearly the designers didn't want this to be posible, so it's an expliot, end of story. :tongue:
val-gaav at 2006-07-28 20:58 wrote:
@sezerp :

The AI thing was more genral ... sorry it was not u who said that ai sucks but couple of persons are saying here that ai in h5 sucks and in h3 is was almost perfect .... well it was not ...

By high level I mean about 10 -15 level Tazar with at least over 10 defense .... Hydras u will have in first week of the game .... reaching level 10-12 and gaining about 15 defence happens in most games untill the start of third week ... it's all ... no magic is needed, but the cure spell may help a lot , and in most cases u will have it ....

As for h5 well ... conquirng utopia here is a difficult task .... fights with neutrals like druids, mages , hunters etc ... are also a lot more difficult then neutrals fro h3 ...

Ethric at 2006-07-28 16:50 wrote:
And if not for the terrain there wouldn't be a victory either. Both factors are necessary, thus the flaws of the AI is not the primary factor. At least not the way I understand the words.

Gaidal Cain at 2006-07-28 16:48 wrote:
Do all sides have reasonably equal access to the Dragon Utopia? If so, then I say it's fine.

However, not all players will have an utopia that allows this tactic. There could be a months gap between when two players are able to pillage it, and with the immense rewards that an utopia offers...

That's the whole *point* of having battlefields that aren't completely clean: to give the players some randomness to terrain, obstacles that can be a royal pain in the butt making you take more losses than usual, or that you can use cunningly against your adversary to enable you to win against otherwise impossible odds.

I prefer my games not to have a randomness that would sometimes allow me to win against "otherwise impossible odds". Heroes is supposed to be a strategy game, and there's no strategy in finding that such an important location as a dragon utopia is such that it can be cleared without much losses. It's like placing boots of speed near every player position and then assigning a totally random creature as guard.

The victory isn't gained primarily from a flaw in the AI, but from having favourable terrain and knowing how to utilize it.

Yes, it is. Without the flaw in the AI, there would be no victory. A human player would have performed many times better.

Kristo at 2006-07-28 16:31 wrote:
You know, you don't always need to get in the last word.

Sheesh. I've never seen such an intense debate over the meaning of one word. All strategies and tactics are fundamentally exploits. That's the whole point. You take an enemy's weakness and use it to your advantage. In this case we're dealing with a deterministic enemy, a computer. The same algorithms (presumably) run for every battle, so you can reliably count on seeing the same tactics and you can reliably exploit them in the same way. That's how all computer games work. You figure out what your digital enemies will do, then adjust your behavior such that you win.

I think the more important question here is whether this should be considered cheating. If you're in a single-player game, I don't think anyone should give a crap. You're free to do whatever you want. If this is multiplayer, it raises the question of fairness. Do all sides have reasonably equal access to the Dragon Utopia? If so, then I say it's fine. The tactics outlined here are now (very) public knowledge, so everyone has the same chance to reap the benefits early in the game. If not, then play a different map or invent yet another bogus house rule to give all players a warm fuzzy about fairness (i.e., make everyone equally miserable).

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-28 15:27 wrote:
The AI always rushes in a straight line in it's first move. It also forgets about the Marksmans ability. And if they AI had a broader grasp of tactics he would try to attack the peasants in such a way as to create a breach, but he never will, coz he doesn't see what's really happening.

Ethric at 2006-07-28 15:04 wrote:
Though it is really clever,it is still the exploit of the fact that a single peasant can block a huge dragon from going anywhere.

Then the entire series is based on an exploit, namely the stacksystem. If you want to remove that "exploit", you have to change that fundament in the series.

If this isn't an exploit of a specific AI flaw, please tell me how you'd defeat the same dragons with the same troops but with a battlefield layout where one cannot block the dragons that way.

That's the whole *point* of having battlefields that aren't completely clean: to give the players some randomness to terrain, obstacles that can be a royal pain in the butt making you take more losses than usual, or that you can use cunningly against your adversary to enable you to win against otherwise impossible odds.

The victory isn't gained primarily from a flaw in the AI, but from having favourable terrain and knowing how to utilize it. Within the confines of the game and the specific battlefield the AI is then unable to counter the ruse. So no, on a completely blank battlefield you most likely couldn't win this. And that's part of the point of it: he had to have this battlefield to win, and he had to scout ahead to see if he had the advantage. He did, so he won. If he hadn't, well then he wouldn't have attacked.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-28 12:54 wrote:
Yeah, but it's so much better when you do it to someone that's not an idiot.

stijn at 2006-07-28 12:27 wrote:
exploit or not, this is one of the things i always liked about homm, beating a way much larger army by doing smart things :)

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-28 12:20 wrote:
First of all the Spartans all died. Now if Xerxes had some mental disease that forced him to only send in 300 troops at every 5 min gainst them it would have been an exploit.

Secondly, i never said you shouldn't use it. Seeing as all players can probably do it, it shouldn't be very imbalanced. Just don't go around saying it's not an exploit.

Thirdly, anyone notice how the AI Dragons seem to just move straight ahead in their first turn?

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-28 10:45 wrote:

<br>This "exploit" is pretty much the same what Leonidas and his 300 Spartans did in Thermopylae canyon. They used the surroundings to their advantage and made Xerxes' army suffer losses far greater than he'd expect. In a player vs player situation the result of the above battle would be similar: dragons would most likely win, suffering great losses however. What it required was (just as in the HoMM example above) a lucky terrain and some clever tactics.
<br>ZOMG, hax0r SPartans exploloitarz, banninate them!

No its not the same,because 5 blackies,6 deep and 11 shadow dragons outnumber 130 marksman by at least 10 to 1,and spartans were outnumbered mostly 3 to 1.And spartans lost a lot of their ships in this battle too,but here you loose 6 peasants,and thats just nothing.

And I am just waiting for some of you brilliant tacticians to call beating 1000 of zobies with a single sprite and level 1 hero a clever tactics.Come on,I dare you!
MER at 2006-07-28 08:15 wrote:
""If the AI doesn't go after 165 Archers because that 1 peasant is closer you're exploiting his disability to plan ahead."
Ha ha ha. Let me enlighten you: dragons attact the peasant in question not because it's closer to them, but because they can't attack the archers themselves. They physically can't go after them, see, and that's the beauty of this strategy, for which Heroes' combat mechanics allows."

The point is the AI shouldn't attack these peasents either but it does cuz they are the closest to the archers. It is an exploit IMO but we are 'allowed' to use it cuz the AI is cheating (so it can balance its stupidity).

Gaidal Cain at 2006-07-28 08:08 wrote:
If this isn't an exploit of a specific AI flaw, please tell me how you'd defeat the same dragons with the same troops but with a battlefield layout where one cannot block the dragons that way.

Sir Gallant at 2006-07-28 07:37 wrote:
How is a peasant blocking a dragon an exploit? LOL. It's a part of the game, always has been and hopefully always will be. It's as much of an exploit as putting your archers in a corner and surrounding them with melee units.

"If the AI doesn't go after 165 Archers because that 1 peasant is closer you're exploiting his disability to plan ahead."
Ha ha ha. Let me enlighten you: dragons attact the peasant in question not because it's closer to them, but because they can't attack the archers themselves. They physically can't go after them, see, and that's the beauty of this strategy, for which Heroes' combat mechanics allows.

This "exploit" is pretty much the same what Leonidas and his 300 Spartans did in Thermopylae canyon. They used the surroundings to their advantage and made Xerxes' army suffer losses far greater than he'd expect. In a player vs player situation the result of the above battle would be similar: dragons would most likely win, suffering great losses however. What it required was (just as in the HoMM example above) a lucky terrain and some clever tactics.
ZOMG, hax0r SPartans exploloitarz, banninate them!
sezerp at 2006-07-28 07:20 wrote:
"Actually I have many times conquired dragon utopia with Tazar + 3-5 hydras + splited lizardsman
and yes 3 hydras were enough if the hero had high level ...

The trick is to make a good positioning of those units and dragons will go dump and instead of attacking hydras will press wait (or defend ) for a couple of turns...

So please do not say that h3 was so great , hard , with fantastic AI .... etc etc ....

and it's not an very bad exploit as it involves tactics .... one wrong move and you may loose your army and even the hero ... BTW it was permited in h3 MP and nobody ended game becouse of this... and actually there are some other nice tricks you could do in h3 ;)"

When did I say H3 had great AI? Can you quote me on that (of course you can't). What I did say was: IMHO H3 implemented creature banks somewhat better.

Yes, there was a lot of tricks you could use in H3 to win against much stronger army. So it was in every single part of the series. Still, you'll perhaps agree, not many of them involved defeating dragons with such a weak army. H3 hydras are level 7 creatures after all... And did you mention _a specific hero_ with _high level_ ? Well, with high level hero you can accomplish a lot, it is what these games are about.

Myself, I wouldn't call it an exploit either, it just example of using every single advantage given by the environment - which is what is tactics about isn't it ? What is strange is how far you can take it in H5
Edited on Fri, Jul 28 2006, 01:29 by sezerp

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-28 06:52 wrote:
Though it is really clever,it is still the exploit of the fact that a single peasant can block a huge dragon from going anywhere.

And it would be very simple to win this one with loosing just a bunch of shadows.Just wait with blackies,attack with shadows,swoop in with blackies and anihilate the archer.No matter how hard the enemy tries,he cannot outrun the blackies.The problem with the AI is that it uses wait only when theres nothing else to play.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-28 01:21 wrote:
Didn't i already say?!

If you still don't see it then i'll tell you after i wake up. G'night.

And E. - not without them crutches... :devil:

Paulus1 at 2006-07-28 00:05 wrote:
Yes it can. Just have one of the dragons get behind the one attacking the peasant.
Please, tell us how you would have done things differently, playing the dragons. Youl will soon have 2 or 3 stacks moving in a row (depends if marksmen kill Black Dragons).

Or was the AI mistake earlier on in your opinion? If so, what should have been done differently? And please be specific, so it can be tested..

http://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/images/towns/Haven/utopia5.jpg

Ethric at 2006-07-28 00:01 wrote:
Heard of paralympics? Those guys would probably outrun most of us unfit game nerds. I'm telling you, that comparison of yours is no good...

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 23:58 wrote:
Even if the AI has several moves in row, it can't reach the Marksmen, because of the layout of the battlefield (dragon taking down peasants will block the other dragons).


Yes it can. Just have one of the dragons get behind the one attacking the peasant.

The thing is that you might trick a human once with this, but it will always work on the AI, and that's why it's an AI exploit.

A wak runner could get better at it, but a guy with only 1 leg won't.

Paulus1 at 2006-07-27 23:44 wrote:
Exploits are also strategies/tactics that allow you to defeat the opponent in a way the designers didn't intend.
Who says the designers didn't intend this kind of tactics?
Otherwise they might as well have left all battlefield obstacles out of the game.

IMO this is an example of brilliant battlefield tactics, though it clearly has it's limits, since the battlefield has to fit precisely.

If the AI doesn't go after 165 Archers because that 1 peasant is closer you're exploiting his disability to plan ahead.
Try to take another look at the screenshots. Even if the AI has several moves in row, it can't reach the Marksmen, because of the layout of the battlefield (dragon taking down peasants will block the other dragons).

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 23:41 wrote:
It's not about how well it plays, but how it plays. If the other guy doesn't see red units and you're using only red units you're clearly exploiting his disability.

If the AI doesn't go after 165 Archers because that 1 peasant is closer you're exploiting his disability to plan ahead.
val-gaav at 2006-07-27 23:37 wrote:
"Not to mention the fact, that all 'creature banks' in H3 used special batllefield setup, to make conqering them harder and such tactics(exploits) were simply impossible. Well, there were tips to raid Naga Banks early in the game, but Dragon Utopias were for tough armies only."

Actually I have many times conquired dragon utopia with Tazar + 3-5 hydras + splited lizardsman
and yes 3 hydras were enough if the hero had high level ...

The trick is to make a good positioning of those units and dragons will go dump and instead of attacking hydras will press wait (or defend ) for a couple of turns...

So please do not say that h3 was so great , hard , with fantastic AI .... etc etc ....

and it's not an very bad exploit as it involves tactics .... one wrong move and you may loose your army and even the hero ... BTW it was permited in h3 MP and nobody ended game becouse of this... and actually there are some other nice tricks you could do in h3 ;)

Ethric at 2006-07-27 23:15 wrote:
Oh really? So if you play against another person who isn't exactly as skilled as you are, you are exploiting him?

You put to much into the word, when it comes to exploiting the system of a game it means more than just taking advantage of the AI's shortcomings, it's more of a circumventing\breaking the rules alltogether thing. Can be a fuzzy line of course, but the way you explain it at least is wrong.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 22:54 wrote:
Philistines....

You're taking advantage of a guys disability. That's an exploit. Get it now?!

stijn at 2006-07-27 22:36 wrote:
No, nor would I jump of a cliff with a banana up my nose thinking it'll make me fly or make out with the prince of Wales thinking I've scored miss universe. lol, i was about to post a similar example :D

Ethric at 2006-07-27 22:32 wrote:
No, nor would I jump of a cliff with a banana up my nose thinking it'll make me fly or make out with the prince of Wales thinking I've scored miss universe. But what's that got to do with anything in this discussion?

Me in reasonably good shape outrunning someone else in reasonably good shape but missing a leg wouldn't be a great achievement. But if you want to compare to the original topic, that is beating a bunch of dragons with some haven riffraff, you could perhaps compare it to a snail outrunning a onelegged man. But it's still not particualrily relevant.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 22:18 wrote:
For crying out loud. Weakness as in flaw. You wouldn't consider outruning a guy missing a leg as a great victory achieved by the great strategy you used, would you?

Ethric at 2006-07-27 22:06 wrote:

No, exploiting the AI's weakness is an exploit. Any tactic that only works because the AI is flawed is an exploit.

Practically no game has an AI that is not weaker than a human (except perhaps for some with a very basic mechanic). Giving the AI unfair advantages (cheating) does not remove the weaknesses, only obscure and compensate for them. So just the act of playing against the AI and doing stuff better than it is then an exploit. Obviously, this isn't so. Human players have their strenghts and weaknesses, AI players have their strenghts and weaknesses. And there are both poor AI's and poor human players, each with varying strenghts and weaknesses. A good AI or human player seems to be simply one that has more strenghts than weaknesss.


Why do people keep complaining about the AI being stupid but still think using it's stupidity against it is a great tactic? Wouldn't you prefer the AI stay stupid then?

However good the AI, humans will try to find ways to beat it. Now, this should not be too easy, but what constitutes too easy will vary greatly with the skill of the human player. You refer to everyone, like everyone is one homogenous mass that think the same things here. Some will want the AI to be so good as to eliminate as many weaknesses as possible. Some will find some of those weaknesses ok because it allows them to use certain tactis to do things that at first glance seems impossible.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-27 21:48 wrote:
Actually its the other way round.The AI gets all those bonuses because the devs know its not smart enough and that the players will exploit it.

stijn at 2006-07-27 21:37 wrote:
Any tactic that only works because the AI is flawed is an exploit well the ai gets double creature growth and more money, so i think we can be glad there's certain 'tactics' that only works against the ai. cause if i were playing against myself with more money and creature growth, i would win without any doubt B-)

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 21:05 wrote:
So now people are saying that doing anything the AI isn't capable of doing\thinking of is an exploit

No, exploiting the AI's weakness is an exploit. Any tactic that only works because the AI is flawed is an exploit. Why do people keep complaining about the AI being stupid but still think using it's stupidity against it is a great tactic? Wouldn't you prefer the AI stay stupid then?

Ethric at 2006-07-27 20:29 wrote:
So now people are saying that doing anything the AI isn't capable of doing\thinking of is an exploit 8|

Why even play against the AI then, just set all players AI controlled and you could watch. That way no-one is exploiting...

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 19:48 wrote:

The same way punching a bag or running laps is considered part of preparations for a boxing match.

You mean that match where you actualy throw punches at a solid body while you move your legs?! :devious:

I was wondering in the sense of how it helps as opposed to playing it for real. One would think that might help more.

But MER meant it as just playing the game. I got that from his second post thank you.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-27 19:37 wrote:

How is using something that won't ever work in MP unless you're playing against your cat "training for MP"?


The same way punching a bag or running laps is considered part of preparations for a boxing match.
MER at 2006-07-27 19:31 wrote:
"How is using something that won't ever work in MP unless you're playing against your cat "training for MP"?"

What I meant was while you search for ways to trick the AI you get used to utilizing the battlefield to the most (and learn valuable lessons on what you shouldn't do in MP if you don't want to look like a noob).
Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 13:43 by MER

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 19:24 wrote:
"This is HOMM spirit - find ways to trick the AI thus training for MP."

How is using something that won't ever work in MP unless you're playing against your cat "training for MP"?


I don't really have anything against it, just against people saying it's not an exploit.
MER at 2006-07-27 19:18 wrote:
Exploit or not, this is the beauty of HOMM. there have always been such tactics/exploits against AI in the series. I won't forget in H3 killing 3000+ nagas (slowed) with a bunch of archers and 1 pixie which lured them left and right :D. Nor will I forget defending a castle with 7 of 1st the unit against an enormous AI force (without a shooter regretably :P ).
This is HOMM spirit - find ways to trick the AI thus training for MP.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 19:15 wrote:
Ups... Forgot the 't . Fixing.... and done.

maltz at 2006-07-27 19:08 wrote:
> You can use this one to win against a human player, that's why it's an exploit.

Er... That doesn't sound quite right. You can use a lot of things to win against a human player.

Anyways, back to topic. I think this is a great feat! Cheers to those who (apparantly more than one) figured it out all by themselves, simply because they are smart. Too bad now everybody knows it... :P
Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 13:13 by maltz

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-27 18:47 wrote:
You guys are right,this is a tactic.And capturing your enemies castle on day 1 when you are first and buying all of his creatures is a valid strategy that requires lots of brains,and absolutely no luck.And putting on boots of travel on the end of each day,and removing them on the begining of the next to put on some combat ones is also a strategy that requires lots of thinking.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 18:43 wrote:
You can 't use this one to win against a human player, that's why it's an exploit. You're exploiting the AI's way to chose targets.

Spliting troops is a tactic. Using it to trick the AI is an exploit.


@Sir Gallant:
I really apreciate the fact that you took the time to register just so you can support something false. Reminds me how funny life really is. :devil:

Sir Gallant at 2006-07-27 17:53 wrote:
And by the way, thanks to all of you who deemed this smart tactics an exploit -- you made me re-make my account on CH (I forgot my login/pass and was too lazy to sign in again, heh).

Sir Gallant at 2006-07-27 17:51 wrote:
This is a tactics, not an exploit. If human was to command the dragons, losses on his side in this very case would CERTAINLY by greater than 2 dragons.
And yes, splitting troops (however boring I myself consider this idea) can be helpful in almost any melee battle -- for wasting enemy retaliations for example. Unless you also consider this tactics to be an exploit, lol.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-27 16:18 wrote:
This isnt an exploit at all, Its a valid combat tactic. While this exact situation is unlikely the tactics used in this can be used in any melee enemy battles.

Ok,if it can be used in any melee battle,I dare you to use it against me(or any human player,for that matter).If you beat me Ill admit that its not an exploit.

Marine OKeefe at 2006-07-27 16:14 wrote:
This isnt an exploit at all, Its a valid combat tactic. While this exact situation is unlikely the tactics used in this can be used in any melee enemy battles.
Romla at 2006-07-27 16:00 wrote:
I agree with DaemianLucifer. AI can never be so smart as human player (at present). Kristo's argument that AI did everything right is also true, but only if you consider that AI programmers did not have so big fantasy to see that one can kill 15 dragons with 6 peasants and throng of marksmen. Human player will not be as dumb to dish up dragons to marksmen's supper. But if this is possible then something is wrong with AI. Maybe it is next nice item to patch. However I think nowadays we need more important things to be patched :-)

While I was typing Kristo repaired his opinion about AI :-)
Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 10:09 by Romla

Kristo at 2006-07-27 15:37 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is the effective range of Precise Shot?
3 squares
Oh. If it's only 3 squares, then we have uncovered a flaw in the battle AI. I'm sure the Dragons could kill Peasants while staying out of the 3-square range until it was absolutely necessary to move in there. The AI seems to fall into the trap because it's trying to reach the Archers. It has a choice between six equal stacks of 1 Peasant and it chooses the ones that are closest to its real target. What it should be doing is attacking Peasants where the expected damage received from other troops is the least.

So, either the AI doesn't look ahead far enough, or isn't programmed to consider the effects of Precise Shot.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-27 15:15 wrote:
No,its not tactics,its an exploit of a dumb AI.The fact that anyone can use it,or that it is clever doesnt mean its not an exploit.If a human was to control the dragons I doubt youd be able to kill more then 2 of them(2 creatures,not 2 stacks).

Alamar at 2006-07-27 14:02 wrote:
On the issue of tactics & strategy Campaigner makes a good point. This is more of a battlefield tactic than a strategy.

I would submit though that the tactic relies upon the fact that the opponnent is too stupid to figure out what's going on :)

As for exploit or not I don't think it meets enough of the points to make it a true exploit but I would state that it is not intended that you should be able to beat a dragon utopia with this type of troop disposition so it is getting close on a few points.

Alamar at 2006-07-27 13:57 wrote:
No offense but this "strategy" is just an artificially set up excersize:

1. Dragon Utopias [in the maps I play] always have 4 stacks.
2. You're not going to encounter "near perfect" battlefields often
3. The dragons that you face often have inits FAR far higher than your troops. You run a very high risk of emerald & green dragons going 2 times before you can shoot & kill them. Note the 3 dragon stacks in the example are the slowest of all dragons [in init].
4. The ATB in the given example is virtually perfect. I couldn't have photoshopped a better starting alignment.
5. Even with a near perfect battlefield and ATB placement 5/6 of the blockers were lost. The margin of error in this near perfect situation was slim.
6. On Average a Precise Shot with that number of archers should kill a stack of dragons. However any bad damage rolls will doom you. Note I have seen absolute minimum damage enough times to know this is a grave risk.
7. In SP you can always reload ... in MP it's game over if you miscalculate.

Campaigner at 2006-07-27 13:21 wrote:
Impressive! GREAT tactics! (It IS tactics, not strategy)

It's funny to see people call this an exploit, as this tactic depends on number of dragon stacks and the layout of obstacles. You have to make a strategic decision (sacrifice a hero) to gather intelligence about the conditions of the upcoming battle (nr of enemy stacks and the layout of obstacles) in order to assure victory.

And I agree with Ethric. Those who can't handle advanced tactics such as these should play chess or GalCiv II since there's no battletactics there.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-27 11:06 wrote:

Yet another nice feature dropped nobody knows why.

Isnt it obvious?To speed up gameplay :devil:

I've done the exact same thing with Furies + multiple scouts, but the haven example is much faster because of the marksmens' special. I thought this was widely known (single stack splitting in H3 was popular), but good guide at any rate ;)

Yes,it was popular as a retal stealing,but not as blocking.And there are really too much splitting exploits now.Casters,for example.Or attacking with 7 1 creature stack,so your hero can finish the enemy.

Infiltrator at 2006-07-27 10:40 wrote:
I've done the exact same thing with Furies + multiple scouts, but the haven example is much faster because of the marksmens' special. I thought this was widely known (single stack splitting in H3 was popular), but good guide at any rate ;)

Dublex at 2006-07-27 09:17 wrote:
I'm sorry, but if I caught anyone using this early on I would deem them as cheating and boot them from a game I was hosting, as strategy or not, its an exploit.

frozd at 2006-07-27 09:14 wrote:
Nice exploit!
sezerp at 2006-07-27 06:58 wrote:
> Try that one in HIII and youll die horribly

Not to mention the fact, that all 'creature banks' in H3 used special batllefield setup, to make conqering them harder and such tactics(exploits) were simply impossible. Well, there were tips to raid Naga Banks early in the game, but Dragon Utopias were for tough armies only.

Yet another nice feature dropped nobody knows why.
Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 02:29 by sezerp

Orfinn at 2006-07-27 06:15 wrote:
That was great :D

LordErtz at 2006-07-27 01:18 wrote:
Very nicely done! An excellent example of using your enemy's tactics against him.

Just out of curiosity, what is the effective range of Precise Shot?


3 squares

Kristo at 2006-07-27 01:04 wrote:
Very nicely done! An excellent example of using your enemy's tactics against him.

Just out of curiosity, what is the effective range of Precise Shot? Given the size of the battlefield, I don't think there's really any way for the computer to defend against this. You can't kill Peasants without some Dragon stack being within range. And you're going to have to kill Peasants in order to win the fight. From the battle description, I think the AI did everything right and still suffered a devastating loss.

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-27 01:01 wrote:
A clever exploit is still an exploit. And that one's clearly an AI exploit, as a human player would have creamed them Haven troops.

Ethric at 2006-07-27 00:34 wrote:
Exploits are also strategies/tactics that allow you to defeat the opponent in a way the designers didn't intend.

No they're not. That's being clever. But of course, those not clever often take refuge in calling every trick they themselves are incapable of concieving an exploit :devious:

Luring dumb leaderless dragons into a skillfully devised trap by sacrificing a few peasants, that's clever.

stefan.urlus at 2006-07-27 00:28 wrote:
good work there .... that is some excellent use of tactics and numerous 1 stacks

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-26 22:52 wrote:
Exploits are also strategies/tactics that allow you to defeat the opponent in a way the designers didn't intend.

maltz at 2006-07-26 22:43 wrote:
Neh it is not an exploit. The OP is not utilizing weird game glitches to make things happen the way that they should not happen. What doesn't make sense to me is how can so many marksman fit into a small space-time, disallowing the dragon's big body to make any contact.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-26 22:02 wrote:
What the hell is not an exploit in the game then?


In this game,or in games in general?In this game...well...urrr...hard to say really.

And please,using 6 single stack peasants to kill any number of dragons is a clear exploit.This just shows how small the BF actually is.Try that one in HIII and youll die horribly.

Nebs at 2006-07-26 20:25 wrote:
What the hell is not an exploit in the game then?

Good job Acopy.

Ethric at 2006-07-26 20:01 wrote:
Id say even more:great EXPLOIT there!

Heh, some will call anything but barging straight ahead an exploit :rolleyes:

Great guide there :tsup:

ThunderTitan at 2006-07-26 19:13 wrote:
Last Stand might be usefull too if you can get it.

DaemianLucifer at 2006-07-26 19:12 wrote:
Id say even more:great EXPLOIT there!
Alais_Servius at 2006-07-26 19:11 wrote:
VERY impressive article! Great strategy here!

vicheron at 2006-07-26 19:04 wrote:
You can do this without the obstacle if you have Tactics. Raise Dead also helps.

maltz at 2006-07-26 18:52 wrote:
This is simply brilliant. :)

LordErtz at 2006-07-26 18:51 wrote:
This has to be one of the most impressive things that I have seen from a strategy.

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