From the Facebook M&M page: "Some extremely rare official art for the you-know-which-race, created for TotE but never made it into the game." Thanks, AS.

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astral76minor at 2010-02-15 00:44 wrote:
Hope for the best and plan for the worst....
BTW, Hamachi works for LAN games on H5 over the internet. It will work with Vista 64 and Windows7. Sometimes it is better to play Heroes against humans.
Edited on Mon, Feb 15 2010, 17:28 by astral76minor

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-14 18:57 wrote:
Yeah, it's not an age thing, TBS's don't appeal to the Halo/MW2/MMO crowd, but those are now the main people buying games...

astral76minor at 2010-02-14 01:46 wrote:
Though one cannot argue that H5 was made primarily for teenagers as with the whole series. More than 1/3 of sales are made off of kids for the sake of our beloved game. It is a factor that will determine the future of Heroes. TBS reigns, but kids bring in the money. It would be a sad day to see H6 transform into an MMORPG for the wishes of teenagers.

Then I have wishes for the older Heroes games. Release the code so programmers can mod them. I would love to see a Heroes 2 game that had 3D like H5. Some say that H3 should get the same treatment.
One can only wish. Someone needs alot of money to revamp Heroes the way veterans deserve. I predict 50/50 odds for such an occurence.
Edited on Sat, Feb 13 2010, 20:52 by astral76minor

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-12 11:33 wrote:
I think i said this before, while the idea of the initiative working that way isn't bad i think the implementation needs some work. No unit should get 2 turns for each turn another takes... extra turn should only happen each 3-4 turns at min. And of course this would work best with a bigger Battlefield...


T<he reason for the graphics is simple, part of our market relies on teenagers. Although I really don't care much about that.>

People that are graphic whores probably won't be into TBS's, so any increase in sales would be temporary as they realise what the game is about...

CloudRiderX at 2010-02-12 03:22 wrote:
Forgive me, I was not discrediting the initiative system as a valuable asset to the series. I actually forgot about it lol, its been so long since I played the game.

I understand your argument, too. Appealing to fans by adopting other popular fantasy styles is both uncreative and destructive to our beloved series.

I agree with all of your points! Even though it seems I'm giving Ubi too much credit, maybe its just been too long - my vigor in bashing Heroes V is all but diminished. I say much less than I could care to because we've all been on this subject before, and there's no need to repeat the same discussions again. As far as I'm concerned, the old series is dead, and I'm not planning on buying Heroes 6.

astral76minor at 2010-02-11 23:21 wrote:
I think there are two routes for H6:
-Revamp H2 with the new eye candy
-Continue where H4 left off w/ eye candy
These two choices can bring back many veteran players. The reason for the graphics is simple, part of our market relies on teenagers. Although I really don't care much about that.

Zamolxis at 2010-02-10 10:30 wrote:
There's really not much I can add after JSE's post. He kinda said it all (like reading my mind:p), and more...:

- The only good innovation in H5 was indeed the initiative system. If they wouldn't have introduced it, I would have suggested it (years ago I was actually thinking the creatures in Heroes need a new attribute - I was calling it "agility" - but I don't remember if I ever posted that on an English forum or not, and if it was a proposal for a WoG mod or part of a wish list for H5). But I think that if this would have been suggested by the community on one of the main forums, we wouldn't have seen it in H5 either. I've seen lots of great ideas in the H5 wishlists back then. Looking at the final game, it almost seems like Ubisoft did their best to stay away from them, to avoid anybody asking credit afterwards I guess.

- The skill system could be called interesting at best. But otherwise it was indeed messy and annoying, without proper documentation about it. They shouldn't have waited for the community to do all their work on this (not only the skill wheel, but I'm thinking even at the manual & stuff).

- I may be in minority here, but I also hate Ledroit's weirdness. It's not that I dislike gothic "art" in general, but his particular style has nothing to do with Heroes (at least for my taste, it should have never had anything to do with it)

- Mixing Ledroit's weirdness with Warhammer and Warcraft/WoW styles for a Heroes game, was a cheap (maybe not financial, but in terms of creative effort), terrible choice. I don't mind their commercial approach. I mind their BAD commercial approach. They simply didn't know how to mix what HAD to be kept from the old games, with elements of the "fantasy pop culture" as JSE put it, to increase the game success (so by wisely building on the existing, not just randomly copy from here and there). In spite of their PR communication, in reality their attitude felt often more like "F*** the community, we do what we want." One of the things I hated the most was their strategy of selling their "darker, more mature" universe, like it would have been my problem that I don't share their vision on that. "Darker" does not always mean "more mature", and you don't necessarily need to make things dark, in order to have them more modern, or mature. Except for messing up the atmospheric balance of the old games, they didn't accomplish anything.

- Lastly yes, it "could've been worse". It could have come out without perhaps the sole element of originality - the initiative. But it could have also been better, way better: less bugs, better/earlier patches, better balance (gameplay & atmosphere), better voice acting, better storyline, graphics & alignments more compatible with the old ones, etc, etc, etc. And what bothers me on top of that, is that they didn't screw up only H5, but implicitly its followers as well. I can never hope for a H3-like Fortress town again (perhaps my favorite), after they gave us the dwarven Fortress. They killed the chance to have some continuity for several game elements, by simply applying a name (not even the so-much-blamed-by-some H4 didn't do such mistake). There is no good choice left for them for H6 now. I would still want my H3 Fortress in there, but now there are H5 fans wanting their Dwarven Fortress. Continuity is broken and they've given themselves little room to make everybody happy at least later on.

(wow... it seem in the end I did have a lot to add... and still I barely listed 10% of all that bothered me about that game)

JSE at 2010-02-10 04:48 wrote:
@ ThunderTitan:

I think the creature design in Legends of M&M and M&M 9 can give us a good general idea of how creatures in an NWC-made 3D version of Heroes could have looked like. A gallery of both can be found in the M&M section of Tracy Iwata's personal website -- here: http://oldpage.150m.com/mmpage.htm (please scroll down).

Of course, the modelling looks quite simplistic when compared to modern games, but I still think that most creatures are quite detailed and nice. Especially the dragons have a strong Heroes resemblance and could as well come out of an alternative Heroes 5...

Oh, that would have been so great...

------

@ CloudRiderX

:: As far as Heroes V goes, even though the Warhammer-ish art and bad storyline were turnoffs, they won't affect later HoMM games, because the art and story will evolve as each new game is developed. ::

Instead of giving the M&M games a characteristic and coherent look throughout the games, it's becoming very obvious that UbiSoft are simply adopting the most commercially succesful styles of the fantasy "pop culture": Heroes 5 looks like a cross between Warhammer Fantasy and Warcraft/WoW (with a bit of gothic Ledroit weirdness added in) while Clash of Heroes is purebred manga.*

You might call this "evolvement" or even "experimentation" -- for me it's cold marketing strategy. Not because I don't see the point of trying to be commercially successful (I do), but because an appreciation of M&M's stilistic legacy is very obviously amiss and because visual coherency doesn't seem to be of any importance.

That's why I expect a possible Heroes 6's look to simply be a technically advanced version of the Heroes 5 look.

*) Dark Messiah seems to be mostly Arkane's child (fortunately).

:: So I look into the concepts and the mechanics, and I must say Ubi really didn't do that badly with Heroes V. ::

In my opinion, the only feature of Heroes 5 -- and one of the very few innovations -- that enhanced a part of gameplay was the combat initiative system. Everything else was already present in Heroes 3 -- and more. The skill system didn't feel different at all while actually playing the game. It took the effort and talent of the fan community to reveal the concept behind it and to do some strategic planning. I played Heroes 5 soon after it was released, and my personal impression was that the skill system was more messy than original or intelligent.

:: My opinion is the same as most Heroes veterans: "It could've been worse." ::

So could have Alien 4 or Ghostbusters 2 ;). I agree that for a Heroes newbie, Heroes 5 still offers some solid fantasy TBS gameplay and charm -- but to this day, Heroes 1 to 3 give you loads more of that. Even Heroes 4 (which undoubtedly seemed experimental and progressive) gives you more and better reasons to give it another shot -- at least it really had some *noticeable* variations.
Edited on Tue, Feb 09 2010, 23:54 by JSE

Marzhin at 2010-02-09 21:17 wrote:
@ CloudRiderX : I think JVC said exactly the same thing in the foreword of H3 manual...

CloudRiderX at 2010-02-09 17:28 wrote:
To those who feel that Heroes IV had 'lost' the HoMM feeling, I think I read inside the Heroes IV game manual that Heroes IV was JVC original vision of how he wanted the game to be. Such a shame that his vision arrived at a time of financial trouble and was ultimately never reached.

As far as Heroes V goes, even though the Warhammer-ish art and bad storyline were turnoffs, they won't affect later HoMM games, because the art and story will evolve as each new game is developed. So I look into the concepts and the mechanics, and I must say Ubi really didn't do that badly with Heroes V. My opinion is the same as most Heroes veterans: "It could've been worse."

While they came up short in some areas, Ubi delivered in others. The skill system is so fun, and was the only reason I played the game more than once to begin with. Even though it took two expansions to get the game where we felt it should've been when it was originally released, Ubi did at least prove that they can hear our suggestions and concerns, even if they didn't always respond in the right way.

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-08 08:05 wrote:
Man, i'd kill for someone that could make H2's visuals in 3D and make it look good.

astral76minor at 2010-02-08 04:42 wrote:
Agree. Blend H2 and H5 together, though....

Kalah at 2010-02-07 21:53 wrote:
I agree. The graphics were much better; shoulda left it like that for H5 as well.

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-07 21:14 wrote:
<There were lots of complaints when H4 was released, and not just because of the unfinished product, but it was said that "the Heroes feel" was gone.>

And they where wrong... at least when it comes to the visuals...

But even if they claimed otherwise it was being unfinished that made them not like it, if the heroes on the BF where more balanced there would have been less complaints i bet.

Corlagon at 2010-02-07 13:44 wrote:
The complains of the entire MaM community are always the Same.

Which, I'm sure you'll appreciate, is probably indicative that the complaints are valid.

Heroes V is good. I still feel it could've been excellent, if only it shipped with a much larger slew of unrelated single maps instead of that travesty of a campaign in that mockery of a setting.

Kalah at 2010-02-07 13:43 wrote:
There were lots of complaints when H4 was released, and not just because of the unfinished product, but it was said that "the Heroes feel" was gone. Some people tend to keep coming back to the old argument that nothing would have changed radically if 3DO hadn't gone down ... and that just isn't right.

Who's to say the 3D change wouldn't have come anyway? It's quite and obvious change when you think about how many adventure games have been released with a "3D look" the last few years - and I'm sure that JVC & co. would not have let the development of more powerful computers slip them by.

But I agree with you guys that H5 is more a rehash of H3 in fancy dress than a properly new game. What makes it a potentially excellent game is the skill system; this is however ruined slightly by the fact that the game has very high system reqs relative to what you get in return.

Dave_Jame at 2010-02-07 08:38 wrote:
The complains of the entire MaM community are always the Same.

I Think we all should just sit back and enyoy the best. Ubval is not NWC, and tahy will never by but NWC made so many mestakes that calling them better then Ubival is hypocratic.

But I Love these artworks. The Asien toch to the town. Would love to play it, and thay look better than the Arabien Academy (Good Idea, Bad realization)

And by the way NWC was never Original let us by honest. Styl I like their World concept better, Maybe becouse there were more informations and it was mor complex. Only time will shou whot will happen to the Ubisoft world cnocept.

Zamolxis at 2010-02-06 17:27 wrote:
I by no means have any problem with progress. I'm not one of those who opposed the 3D approach. I actually welcome innovation, but only when it doesn't stupidly spoil the existing too much.

What I'm reproaching Ubival are things like the fact that they didn't take the time and effort to understand what we liked in the old games, and that they copied too much from Warhammer. That has nothing to do with progress. Had it been different than old games, but in an original way, I might have liked it (don't know...). But what they seem to have done, was making the game that they liked, by copying from games that they liked. A pretty amateurish approach (which was actually at all levels, if I think of all the bugs, the bad voice acting, the terrible storyline, etc, etc) for a company as big as they pretend to be.

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-06 17:17 wrote:
Changes?! Except 3D there where no real changes, just some taking out some stuff that was in H3.

But the idea was that the feeling of the game wouldn't have changed if NWC was still in-charge.

Kalah at 2010-02-06 16:37 wrote:
Yeah, but on the other hand, we do want some kind of progress as well; it was obvious from the start that Ubi wanted to put their own mark on the games, but even if NWC had kept going, I doubt that the games would have remained without major changes throughout.

Zamolxis at 2010-02-06 12:01 wrote:
JSE, my feelings exactly.

Visiting a HoMM forum is always bittersweet for me, because of what Ubisoft did with what used to be my favorite game. TBH, sometimes I don't know exactly how to deal with the fact that some of the players consider H5 a "worthy follower" of the HoMM series. It may be a decent game in itself (had it had another name...), but there are things you and I (and many others) saw and loved in the old games, that Ubisoft was incapable to identify and preserve. And I have strong doubt they will ever be able to correct what they already screwed up.

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-06 00:58 wrote:
Funny thing is i didn't like the NWC designs very much, with a few exceptions... but at least they looked like they belonged in HoMM...

JSE at 2010-02-05 23:42 wrote:
Thanks a lot for the link, guys. The concept art had me speechless for quite a while...

UbiSoft should have done everything to keep the original NWC team working on Heroes 5. I doubt it would have been more expensive with that level of progress already been made. They just *wanted* to do their own thing and attach the Might and Magic "label" for the sales... :(

This was the Heroes 5 I wanted to play -- instead I got a slimmed-down 3D copy of Heroes 3 with boring Warhammer/comic book graphics.

I'm sorry. :) It's all coming back now. All the nostalgic feelings...

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-05 17:35 wrote:
And i spent all that time tracking that thread down...

Also, figures there would be some Warhammer drawings in there: http://www.danielmaghen.com/fr/adrian-smith-warhammer-on-line-guerrier-haches_p29828.htm

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

Vlaad II at 2010-02-05 17:29 wrote:
I believe the pic was originally posted by Corlagon, who found it here: http://www.danielmaghen.com/fr/smith-adrian-ubisoft_s652.htm

@JSE: You can find NWC's H5 concept art here: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10301&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

JSE at 2010-02-05 15:21 wrote:
@ Zamolxis:
NWC had designs for a H5 Fortress town? The only two things I've ever seen from NWC's H5 plans were the Necropolis town (adventure mode view) and a very cool phoenix. Are there any sources I'm not aware of? :)

@ ThunderTitan:
I agree -- this piece is very good, though for a different game series. I know that Ubi decided to change the art style towards a Olivier-Ledroit-comic-book style, but for me NWC's simpler and cleaner style will always be the characteristic M&M look.

ThunderTitan at 2010-02-05 10:50 wrote:
Those look great... for some other series... i miss the more fairy-tale inspired look the NWC games had.

I bet bo one here would be associating those with HoMM if they weren't labelled as such.

allessander at 2010-02-05 09:48 wrote:
The one on the right's a damn fine Yuan-Ti.

Zamolxis at 2010-02-04 23:50 wrote:
They look great, but still not better than the designs NWC had for their H5 Fortress town (I know, that was more Lizard-oriented, Ubival's would have been more Naga-oriented, but still the closest to the kind of alignment really missing from H4 & H5).

darknessfood at 2010-02-04 23:22 wrote:
They look pretty damn good :)!

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