Do casting creatures need nerfing?
- Sir_Toejam
- Nightmare
- Posts: 1061
- Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Do casting creatures need nerfing?
there was a bit of a sidetrack debate in the ghost thread discussing whether casting creatures are still too powerful after the 1.3 patch.
I din't really find it to be too much of an issue in the campaigns, but can see where a small group of druids or mages can stymie early development and exploration if placed in an inconvenient location.
so how much nerfing do folks think is needed, if any?
If any, I would think a bit of nerfing on the low end of the scale, balanced by increase in damage for larger stacks would be fine, maybe lower the defense of the casters a little bit
for example, if one druid does 36 damage with lighting, reduce that to 30, and maybe drop the defense 2 points. to balance that, with each increase of the stack size by 10 or so, increase the BASE damage output of each creature by 2 points, so a druid in a stack of 10 would do 32 base damage, in a stack of 20 would do 34, 30 would be back to 36, and this would increase as the stack size increases. leave the logarithmic formula for calculating overall damage the same as it is now.
I din't really find it to be too much of an issue in the campaigns, but can see where a small group of druids or mages can stymie early development and exploration if placed in an inconvenient location.
so how much nerfing do folks think is needed, if any?
If any, I would think a bit of nerfing on the low end of the scale, balanced by increase in damage for larger stacks would be fine, maybe lower the defense of the casters a little bit
for example, if one druid does 36 damage with lighting, reduce that to 30, and maybe drop the defense 2 points. to balance that, with each increase of the stack size by 10 or so, increase the BASE damage output of each creature by 2 points, so a druid in a stack of 10 would do 32 base damage, in a stack of 20 would do 34, 30 would be back to 36, and this would increase as the stack size increases. leave the logarithmic formula for calculating overall damage the same as it is now.
It depends on the creature. For example, Shadow Matriarchs are perhaps underpowered for their cost. Magi are borderline but I think they are more annoying than deadly (if you play smart you can get past them - if anything maybe just a nerf to the size of their neutral stacks).
The only one I really feel is bad are Druids. They have way too much HP for the amount of damage they do. Especially Arch-Druids.
The only one I really feel is bad are Druids. They have way too much HP for the amount of damage they do. Especially Arch-Druids.
Hum, I think they should be like this:
Decreases defense for Druid a bit, keeps damage.
For spell casting matter. Depending on which side of the scale the unit is based on (I mean, might or magic), their spell damage should be increased or decreased.
Like: I see druids, more likely to be might than magic, almost balanced. For that matter, having their spell damage similar to their maximum damage, say, 12, each druid should add 12 to spell damage (lightning for instance). Simple as that. 10 druids, 120 damage. 1000 duids, 12k damage. Should be fair at small numbers and at high numbers. Maybe after 100 or 200, each 1 hundred of them would decrease 1% or total damage.
For Archmages, which are related more to magic, their damage as being 8 and their fist or heaven or fireball being, hum, 15? And so on.
For Pit Lords, allmighty, fireball being 10, 8...
They should, of course, have less spell points for this or that case. But I really believe that having a fixed damage for each unit should do for magic balance (I hate seeing 707097807907027362308460324K of sprites inflicting 80 damage using their wasp swarm on peasants <- non-magical resistant... ).
One that I think is more like I said, but I'm not sure (just like almost anything on that game to be sure about), is Djinn Sultan's Decay's damage. It's strong enough to compare.
Decreases defense for Druid a bit, keeps damage.
For spell casting matter. Depending on which side of the scale the unit is based on (I mean, might or magic), their spell damage should be increased or decreased.
Like: I see druids, more likely to be might than magic, almost balanced. For that matter, having their spell damage similar to their maximum damage, say, 12, each druid should add 12 to spell damage (lightning for instance). Simple as that. 10 druids, 120 damage. 1000 duids, 12k damage. Should be fair at small numbers and at high numbers. Maybe after 100 or 200, each 1 hundred of them would decrease 1% or total damage.
For Archmages, which are related more to magic, their damage as being 8 and their fist or heaven or fireball being, hum, 15? And so on.
For Pit Lords, allmighty, fireball being 10, 8...
They should, of course, have less spell points for this or that case. But I really believe that having a fixed damage for each unit should do for magic balance (I hate seeing 707097807907027362308460324K of sprites inflicting 80 damage using their wasp swarm on peasants <- non-magical resistant... ).
One that I think is more like I said, but I'm not sure (just like almost anything on that game to be sure about), is Djinn Sultan's Decay's damage. It's strong enough to compare.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2.
- Gaidal Cain
- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 6972
- Joined: 26 Nov 2005
- Location: Solna
I want linear damage for the spellcasters with damage spells, and I want their spells to be doing roughly the same damage as an equivalent shooter stack at half damage penalty. Druids should choose spellcasting or shooting depending on circumstances, not their own stack size...
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
- DaemianLucifer
- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 11282
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
- Location: City 17
Voted option 2.Although,I think a complete change of the system needs to be changed.I like the idea of stacks having penalties to damage when they are bigger,but it should be applied to all(except the few that have a special negating it),and it should be less drastic.Also,Id like to see casters handled as in HIV,but with less spell damage per creature.And,Id also like to see buffs/curses affected by spellpower.With these changes I think they could be perfectly balanced.
- Jolly Joker
- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 3316
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
So you have a stack of Druids guarding something. Now, where is the difference between (Elder) Druids, Master Hunters, Succubi Mistresses, Cerberi, Griffins and even Marksmen? I see only one (see below). All can be very costly and you need to take special action to get them finished. Go for an upgrade or a specific unit and an ability, most of the time.
The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.
I don't want to offend anyone here, but this is a bit, well, gutless. I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.
The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.
I don't want to offend anyone here, but this is a bit, well, gutless. I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.
- DaemianLucifer
- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 11282
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
- Location: City 17
Well,griffins Ill gladly attack,and Ill win almost without losses.I never saw a neutral griffin dive even once(though even when the computer used it,I usually avoided).The rest,however,Ill think thrice before I even consider attacking them.Especially the mages and the druids.Jolly Joker wrote:So you have a stack of Druids guarding something. Now, where is the difference between (Elder) Druids, Master Hunters, Succubi Mistresses, Cerberi, Griffins and even Marksmen? I see only one (see below). All can be very costly and you need to take special action to get them finished. Go for an upgrade or a specific unit and an ability, most of the time.
The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.
And imagine if one player has mages and the other has squires as mine guardians(it happens a lot).It really gives an unfair advantage to the second one.
Strangely,but thats exactly what turn retal means,and thats mostly why I hate it.Jolly Joker wrote: I don't want to offend anyone here, but this is a bit, well, gutless. I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.
Yeah the units spell system is the most stupidiest yet...
It makes me laugh when 20 Mages do almost us much damage as 50. The most anoying situation occurs when about 10 Mages/Druids are left from an arrow barrage (for instance) that killed about 100 of them. So what, they will do enough damage afterall, killing many of your precious archers or so...
I completly agree with DaemianLucifer. There should be a similiar system as in HIV, but a bit more balanced. Those Genies were a bit of a nuisance in HIV, when they've killed your Super-hero with one shoot, because his magic resistance was not enough (oh wait Heroes no longer fight on the battlefield )
Like this: Mage/Archmage 6-8 or less damage per level with Magic fist and 10-15 or less with Fireball and so on...
It makes me laugh when 20 Mages do almost us much damage as 50. The most anoying situation occurs when about 10 Mages/Druids are left from an arrow barrage (for instance) that killed about 100 of them. So what, they will do enough damage afterall, killing many of your precious archers or so...
I completly agree with DaemianLucifer. There should be a similiar system as in HIV, but a bit more balanced. Those Genies were a bit of a nuisance in HIV, when they've killed your Super-hero with one shoot, because his magic resistance was not enough (oh wait Heroes no longer fight on the battlefield )
Like this: Mage/Archmage 6-8 or less damage per level with Magic fist and 10-15 or less with Fireball and so on...
Last edited by dragonn on 18 Sep 2006, 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
"Thou shall feel the wrath of the Dragons! Tremble in fear, your end is nigh!" - The Dragon Prophet
"Do you like fire? I'm full of it..." - Deathwing
"Do you like fire? I'm full of it..." - Deathwing
When I played HIII or HIV my priority was to save as many units. It was my way of playing, sometimes I even repeated some battles to try a diffrent startegy and save as many units as it was possible. I just couldn't stand my poor dragons being killed like thatJolly Joker wrote: I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.
"Thou shall feel the wrath of the Dragons! Tremble in fear, your end is nigh!" - The Dragon Prophet
"Do you like fire? I'm full of it..." - Deathwing
"Do you like fire? I'm full of it..." - Deathwing
Only offensive casters need nerfing (druids, archmages, pit lords), all the other casters are very poor neutral monsters because they spend some turns casting dark or light magic instead of attacking.Do casting creatures need nerfing?
Anyway matrons, archlichs and inquisitors are more likely "heavy" shooters than casters.
- Grumpy Old Wizard
- Round Table Knight
- Posts: 2205
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
- Location: Tower Grump
I voted no change to casters. Yes, they can be very dangerous and hinder your progress, but so can other units, as JJ said. Master hunters and marksmen are both good good examples. If the academy gets yet another nerf they might as well replace them with another faction.
GOW
GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
I agree 100%!!Gaidal Cain wrote:I want linear damage for the spellcasters with damage spells, and I want their spells to be doing roughly the same damage as an equivalent shooter stack at half damage penalty. Druids should choose spellcasting or shooting depending on circumstances, not their own stack size...
- Gaidal Cain
- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 6972
- Joined: 26 Nov 2005
- Location: Solna
The difference is that in low number, the Druids will be doing more damage with their lightning bolt tghan the shooters will (since I won't attack until I've fast enough units to cross the field in one turn and can thus avoid the no-distance penalty area), and won't be prevented from doing that even by closing in on them. It's also of very little help to take out most of the creatures in a stack of druids.Jolly Joker wrote:So you have a stack of Druids guarding something. Now, where is the difference between (Elder) Druids, Master Hunters, Succubi Mistresses, Cerberi, Griffins and even Marksmen?
Yes, but why should that be true only for casters then? Random and unfair, if you ask me. Make caster damage linear, and give us simultaneous retal, and you'll see much more attrition, spread out over several battles, just not high attrition whenever you go up against casters.The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
I just hope that all the talking we're doing here will finally have some use, because I get the feeling that the creators didn't spent alot of time thinking about fans when they made the game or released the patches...
I belive casters should be nerfed when in small stacks and buffed when in large stacks... I liked the linear magic system from H4... it should be the same...
Otherwise you would definately fear casters near a mine (mostly if you are academy and you desperately need that mine) and hate the casters in your army, which, in high numbers, won't be as nearly as dangerous.
I rarely remember casting a spell with my archmagi(oh excuse me... archmages :p )... just maybe when some of my creatures got in the way...
I belive casters should be nerfed when in small stacks and buffed when in large stacks... I liked the linear magic system from H4... it should be the same...
Otherwise you would definately fear casters near a mine (mostly if you are academy and you desperately need that mine) and hate the casters in your army, which, in high numbers, won't be as nearly as dangerous.
I rarely remember casting a spell with my archmagi(oh excuse me... archmages :p )... just maybe when some of my creatures got in the way...
Which is terribly unbalancing... Wouldn't be if druids were neutral.Jolly Joker wrote:The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers.
As it is now: You wipe 50% of enemy's druids ? Who cares, remaining half is enough to kill you. OTOH you are better player and have twice as many druids as your oponent - doesn't matter either, unless you split them, that is. This is sooo wrong...
Last edited by sezerp on 19 Sep 2006, 15:14, edited 1 time in total.
- ThunderTitan
- Perpetual Poster
- Posts: 23270
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
- Location: Now/here
- Contact:
Casters just need to stop getting less dmg as their numbers increase and the dmg balanced a bit. Should be more then enough.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti
Alt-0128: €
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti
Alt-0128: €
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests