HoMM II: Best level 5 creature
- Metathron
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HoMM II: Best level 5 creature
Should be the toughest one yet!
P.S. I would like to ask for confirmation on two points I am unsure about.
The first is the Champion's jousting ability - does the HoMM II unit even have it or am I confusing them with later incarnations? I'm quite confident they do, though.
The second is the archmage's dispel ability, that is how high the probability for its success is. I don't remember if it triggers on every attack, though I seem to remember that it does.
Last edited by Metathron on 02 Nov 2007, 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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- dallasmavs41
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You're right in saying that this is the toughest so far. For me, the Champion wins it closely over the Hydra. The Champion's speed and cost greatly outrank the Hydra. Despite being extremely tough, the Hydra is just too slow for my tastes. It's really close though, so if anybody made a case for the Hydra, I wouldn't argue with it too much.
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Thanks, Darmani. Duly noted and remedied.
Omega, the HoMM II liches really do harm your own units as well, so you must be confusing them with their cousins from III and V.
Personally, I am still not done deciding which of these are the best. The only unit that I have already eliminated from the equation are the liches, actually. It's their low attack value, cost and the fact that they can (and often do) harm your own troops that puts me off from voting for them.
Dallas: That's a great choice. I am seriously considering the champs myself. Too bad they don't have jousting after all; with that they would surely top this one.
Just like I was convinced about champions having the jousting ability.Darmani wrote:Somehow I got it in my head that Power Liches did not injure undead allied troops.
Omega, the HoMM II liches really do harm your own units as well, so you must be confusing them with their cousins from III and V.
Personally, I am still not done deciding which of these are the best. The only unit that I have already eliminated from the equation are the liches, actually. It's their low attack value, cost and the fact that they can (and often do) harm your own troops that puts me off from voting for them.
Dallas: That's a great choice. I am seriously considering the champs myself. Too bad they don't have jousting after all; with that they would surely top this one.
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- UndeadHalfOrc
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Archmages, because of their two awesome specials: no melee penalty and can penetrate Castle walls, both of which carried over to their H3 counterparts. Don't care much fo their Dispelling ability.
Their stats rock also. Very fast, decent HP, high attack.
Bottom line, in all my years playing H2, Archmages never disappointed me whenever I got them in my army. So it's no surprise they're the best level 5.
They can easily duel Hydras 1v1, who will be dead before they can reach them.
Their stats rock also. Very fast, decent HP, high attack.
Bottom line, in all my years playing H2, Archmages never disappointed me whenever I got them in my army. So it's no surprise they're the best level 5.
They can easily duel Hydras 1v1, who will be dead before they can reach them.
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Champions are like most either Knight units: Extremely cost-effective, yet overall inferior.
War Trolls are too low-defense. Their Regeneration ability scales poorly - it's great if you have 1 Troll against 1 Titan, and absolutely worthless if you have 20 Trolls against 20 Titans.
Unicorns are a pretty good unit.
Hydras are a castle defense unit. They're a beat to use, but they're hard to use due to their speed. If you get the Teleport spell though, then these could easily be the best.
Power Liches just plain suck. Low HP, low attack, and its often impossible to use them without hitting one of your own units.
I started thinking about this for a while before this thread was made, and I've never been tempted to vote for anything other than the Archmage. High attack and no melee penalty just do it.
War Trolls are too low-defense. Their Regeneration ability scales poorly - it's great if you have 1 Troll against 1 Titan, and absolutely worthless if you have 20 Trolls against 20 Titans.
Unicorns are a pretty good unit.
Hydras are a castle defense unit. They're a beat to use, but they're hard to use due to their speed. If you get the Teleport spell though, then these could easily be the best.
Power Liches just plain suck. Low HP, low attack, and its often impossible to use them without hitting one of your own units.
I started thinking about this for a while before this thread was made, and I've never been tempted to vote for anything other than the Archmage. High attack and no melee penalty just do it.
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Come again?UndeadHalfOrc wrote:Archmages, because of their two awesome specials: no melee penalty and can penetrate Castle walls, both of which carried over to their H3 counterparts.
Anyhow, compared to the magi, for example, the trolls might have some slightly inferior statistics, but it should be taken into account that you get 1 MORE of them than the magi, so that ought to make up at least partially, if not wholly. Same goes for the champions.
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- UndeadHalfOrc
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What, you didn't know that Mages' ranged attack damage in H2 and H3 ignored castle walls? I thought it was common knowledge
The H3 documentation says only the upgraded version can penetrate castle walls, but I tested it (with a test map) and that's bullshit. H2 Mage, H2 Archmage, H3 Mage and H3 Archmage ALL can do full damage to creatures behind castle walls. (...minus the range reduction in H3, but that's treated separately).
That ability is slightly less valuable in H2 because in that game, just having the Basic Archery skill makes ALL shooters have that special ability - not just mages.
The H3 documentation says only the upgraded version can penetrate castle walls, but I tested it (with a test map) and that's bullshit. H2 Mage, H2 Archmage, H3 Mage and H3 Archmage ALL can do full damage to creatures behind castle walls. (...minus the range reduction in H3, but that's treated separately).
That ability is slightly less valuable in H2 because in that game, just having the Basic Archery skill makes ALL shooters have that special ability - not just mages.
I went with the Unicorns. This was another tough decision. I had it narrowed down to Champions, Unicorns, and Archmagi. You don't get enough Champions to offset their lower cost. It costs a lot more resources to get the Upg. Ivory Tower than it does the Fenced Meadow (remember everything you have to build to get there). Furthermore, Unicorns don't need to be upgraded to reach their full potential.
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- Metathron
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Well, that was just so completely unbelievable to me that I had to go ahead and test it with a wizard with 22 Archmages sieging a wizard's town. And guess what - the arrow was BROKEN and the damage halved, so obviously you are confusing this with HoMM III.UndeadHalfOrc wrote:What, you didn't know that Mages' ranged attack damage in H2 and H3 ignored castle walls? I thought it was common knowledge
The H3 documentation says only the upgraded version can penetrate castle walls, but I tested it (with a test map) and that's bullshit. H2 Mage, H2 Archmage, H3 Mage and H3 Archmage ALL can do full damage to creatures behind castle walls. (...minus the range reduction in H3, but that's treated separately).
That ability is slightly less valuable in H2 because in that game, just having the Basic Archery skill makes ALL shooters have that special ability - not just mages.
What do you mean? Why does their cost need offsetting? I think that for a change, the knight's unit is more than capable of standing side by side with the other factions'. Their only downside is their damage range, but it is a very minor disadvantage. They have good attack and defense, and the best speed and price.Kristo wrote:You don't get enough Champions to offset their lower cost.
I think the champions and trolls are overlooked, so let's see what we get when we incorporate weekly growth.
Champions: 200 hit points, 25-50 damage, 1875 gold.
Trolls: 200 hit points, 35-45 hit points, 3500 gold.
Unicorns: 160 hit points, 28-56 hit points, 2000 gold.
Hydras: 300 hit points, 24-48 hit points, 3200 gold.
Archmagi: 140 hit points, 28-36 hit points, 2800 gold.
Power liches: 140 hit points, 32-40 hit points, 3600 gold.
Why I won't vote for trolls is that they are a bit too expensive, but I would still choose them over the *gasp* archmagi.
The real competition gets down to the champions and the unicorns and the champions just manage to eke out a win due to their outstanding speed.
So, from top to bottom, my list goes like this:
Champions
Unicorns
War Trolls
Archmagi
Hydras
Power Liches
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Hmm, that's a very convincing argument. I wanted at least one more Champion per week to "feel" like they were better. I would like to point out that you haven't considered Attack and Defense in your calculations. It proves the Champions vs. Unicorns point because they have the same stats, but don't be so quick to write off the others. This vote is a lot closer than your table makes it appear.
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Sure, but I have taken into consideration only the stats subject to change when observed from the perspective of weekly growth. The other stats, those unaffected by creature growth, are still available from the table, so that's why I didn't write them down again.Kristo wrote:I would like to point out that you haven't considered Attack and Defense in your calculations. It proves the Champions vs. Unicorns point because they have the same stats, but don't be so quick to write off the others. This vote is a lot closer than your table makes it appear.
But I agree that the vote is indeed very close. The gaps between my 1-5 picks are minimal, and even the liches aren't lagging too far behind.
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