Wrong Hero build...

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Romanov77
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Wrong Hero build...

Unread postby Romanov77 » 12 Sep 2007, 11:30

This is what I hate most when playing HommV campaigns....


Im basically FORCED to look at the walkthrough and look at the best hero build suggested for the campaigns...sometimes I was able to fight my way with my own personal builds, but sometimes its just impossible...

Example:

Just started for the first time the Dwarf Campaign... I immediately discovered that runes didnt worked...so I was forced to start again....

now...I just discovered that to complete the campaign I NEED fireball + ignite.
now THIS is real bull****. I spent HOURS playing to get to mission 3 and now I cant beat it because there's a huge army and I dont have the right spell.

Man Im trying despereatly to like this game, but I think that this is at least the third time that I come here ranting aftwer having to restart a scenario/campaign because of nival half-ass attitude at mapmaking.
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Grumpy Old Wizard
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 12 Sep 2007, 11:44

I played through the campaign as soon as the game was released. There was no walkthrough at that point. You don't have to use one particular build to make it through.

I guess you are experiencing a bug with the runes because the runes worked for me.

What you do need to do in campaigns is make sure you max your level in each map. Also make sure you build up your mage guild (and rune guild for dwarves) in every map. Also, you should make sure that visit every single stat boost site. After you max your main heroe's level in a map make sure you work on the level of any carry over heroe.

Also, what you choose for bonuses can make a difference. Generally chosing troops for the bonus is a good choice as they can help you with your creeping.

GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby Romanov77 » 12 Sep 2007, 11:57

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:I played through the campaign as soon as the game was released. There was no walkthrough at that point. You don't have to use one particular build to make it through.

I guess you are experiencing a bug with the runes because the runes worked for me.

What you do need to do in campaigns is make sure you max your level in each map. Also make sure you build up your mage guild (and rune guild for dwarves) in every map. Also, you should make sure that visit every single stat boost site. After you max your main heroe's level in a map make sure you work on the level of any carry over heroe.

Also, what you choose for bonuses can make a difference. Generally chosing troops for the bonus is a good choice as they can help you with your creeping.

GOW
Done everything....


But I didnt got fireball...so I cant win as there's a town which has a huge garrison which cannot be outgrown...
And with the passing of strange eons, even death may die.

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Unread postby aaelgr » 12 Sep 2007, 13:17

What other skills have you got? Fireball is far from the most useful spell in the game (Mass Confusion at Expert Dark Magic). If you're going for the Dwarven Ultimate then the lack of Fireball is annoying, as it makes Ignite obsolete (unless you intend to use Armageddon...).
I can't remember that mission very well, but I'm certain there were lots of creature dwellings and that the garrison didn't grow (it's the one where you can get the Defenders to distract the enemy hero underground?). Have you got War Machines & Triple Ballista? That with Runic Machines is quite a useful bonus if you've visited all of the powerups.
Don't know what's going on with the runes, as they work find on my version as well. Are you playing 2.1? That's the only thing I can think of.

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Unread postby Romanov77 » 12 Sep 2007, 13:41

aaelgr wrote:What other skills have you got? Fireball is far from the most useful spell in the game (Mass Confusion at Expert Dark Magic). If you're going for the Dwarven Ultimate then the lack of Fireball is annoying, as it makes Ignite obsolete (unless you intend to use Armageddon...).
I can't remember that mission very well, but I'm certain there were lots of creature dwellings and that the garrison didn't grow (it's the one where you can get the Defenders to distract the enemy hero underground?). Have you got War Machines & Triple Ballista? That with Runic Machines is quite a useful bonus if you've visited all of the powerups.
Don't know what's going on with the runes, as they work find on my version as well. Are you playing 2.1? That's the only thing I can think of.
The problem is that the defending army has an insange defender growt, pus it gets 2 magma dragons every week....
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Unread postby Elvin » 12 Sep 2007, 15:19

Yes I was lucky to get ignite with fireball in the first mission. No idea how I would have passed it otherwise, even the extra berserkers from freeing Helmar(?) are not enough to help you. As for the runes I bet you have the 2.1 patch.
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Re: Wrong Hero build...

Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 12 Sep 2007, 19:35

Romanov77 wrote:This is what I hate most when playing HommV campaigns....


Im basically FORCED to look at the walkthrough and look at the best hero build suggested for the campaigns...sometimes I was able to fight my way with my own personal builds, but sometimes its just impossible...

Example:

Just started for the first time the Dwarf Campaign... I immediately discovered that runes didnt worked...so I was forced to start again....

now...I just discovered that to complete the campaign I NEED fireball + ignite.
now THIS is real bull****. I spent HOURS playing to get to mission 3 and now I cant beat it because there's a huge army and I dont have the right spell.

Man Im trying despereatly to like this game, but I think that this is at least the third time that I come here ranting aftwer having to restart a scenario/campaign because of nival half-ass attitude at mapmaking.
I don't remember abusing ignite to win any battle but it has been a long time since I played the campagin. Although I had no problem with runes. Are you talking about the Guerrillas mission?

Please post your heroe's attack/defense/spell power/knowledge, and his skills and abilities.

What version are you using? 2.0 or 2.1?

GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby Corribus » 12 Sep 2007, 20:36

I played the Dwarf campaign and won it without fireball OR ignite. So... maybe you just need to try an alternate strategy?
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Unread postby danijel1990 » 13 Sep 2007, 04:41

Hmm, I beat the campaign, without using any runes, so if you gather enough army and your battle strategy is good you would be able to beat the computer.

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Unread postby yuritch » 13 Sep 2007, 07:40

Most runes (except for the Rune of Charge and some others) don't work if you are using the old Russian 2.1 HoMM5 patch (there were two 2.1 patches for the Russian version and the first one had this bug) or the old 2.1 NoDVD patch (note the word old:devious:). Update to the latest 2.1 version and the runes should be working fine.

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Unread postby tumorbane » 13 Sep 2007, 17:28

Corribus wrote:I played the Dwarf campaign and won it without fireball OR ignite. So... maybe you just need to try an alternate strategy?
Same here. I have actually never had ignite. IIRC, I had light magic for the dwarf campaign. Not ideal, but it worked.

One of the things I like best about H5 is the replay value of different hero builds.

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Unread postby Corribus » 13 Sep 2007, 17:47

I never had ignite either. This is the first I've heard of it. :)

I had light magic, too.
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 13 Sep 2007, 23:09

As a rule, I don't replay campaigns. But with lamentations about the impossibility of beating Mission 3 without fireball/ignite I decided to play the campaign again on heroic difficulty.

End of Mission 1:
Logistics (expert)-- pathfinding, snatch
Light (expert)-- all three masteries
Luck (basic)
Fine Rune

I had to piddle around a little to max levels. Built up to bears and upgraded bears before building in other towns.

Black bears and skirmishers own!

End of Mission 2.
Picked up soldiers luck and advanced enlightenment. 8/8/7/10 ending attributes.

Used gold from all those gold mines to exchange for sulphur and other resources. I bult all creature dwellings but only upgraded the first 3.

Maxed mage guild and rune guild. Got word of light for level 5 spell. :( Got Teleport :) Got rune of resurrection and charge! :)

Black bears and skirmishers ruled!

End of Mission 3
Bears and skirmishers rocked the underground. Beserkers kicked major but topside. I did wish for a hill fort, but oh well.

Wulfstan entered the infamous town battle at max level with no destruction mastery and so no fireball/ignite. Did Wulfstan perish? Nope, he kicked tail. :)

Logistics (expert)-- pathfinding, snatch, swift mind
Light (expert)-- all three masteries
Luck (basic)-- soldiers luck
Enlightenment (advanced)-- arcane intuition, tap runes (infinite mana :) )

Expert Runelore
Fine Rune
Refresh Rune
Greater Rune

With artifacts, Wulfstan boasted:
11 attack
15 defense
13 spell power
19 knowledge

Below you see the battle almost won. Beserkers and Brawlers are dead but most everybody else is in good shape.

Image
Image


The bears played no real role except to block the castle entrance at the end and pick off the griffins when they came over the walls. It was spear throwing and beserking mania that won the day. Along with a liberal dosage of runes and mass light spells of course (Did I mention that Wulfstan doesn't have resurrection?) Oh, and once Wulfstan got all the mass spells in place (he had to cast mass speed several times due to the rudeness of the enemy in dispelling it on the spear chunkers) he pounded on the dragons, killing one with every attack. Crippling strike kept the entrance to the castle clogged up. :) Well, a human player would have come out sooner but then the AI had a huge advantage, so it was a wash.

Was the battle a walk in the park? No, but if I wanted a walk in the park I would take a walk in the park. :) And I think it is pretty bloody awesome what the lower level dwarven creatues can accomplish. :)

GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby Romanov77 » 14 Sep 2007, 14:45

Well, I fixed the rune bug thingy...thanks for the suggestion.

Anyway, I'll restart the campaign and try to build a better hero....I expecially need to raise attack as my old wulf had sub-par attack value...do you recomend to pick it over defence in the Arenas?
And with the passing of strange eons, even death may die.

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Unread postby Corribus » 14 Sep 2007, 15:17

Nice analysis, GOW. I don't remember the battle being a walk in the park either. It was very challenging, but that's a good thing IMO. I think that the characterization of the H5 campaigns requiring a very specific skill set is just incorrect.
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 14 Sep 2007, 15:23

Corribus wrote:I think that the characterization of the H5 campaigns requiring a very specific skill set is just incorrect.
I think you are correct there. Rather, campaigns require a good knowledge of the game. I think people come in and start the campaigns first without ever having used the factions and then they don't do well because they don't know how everything works. That's why I like to recommend people to play skirmish maps first. At least that's generally what I see, I haven't done the HoF campaigns yet.

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Unread postby Corribus » 14 Sep 2007, 16:47

Bad hero builds can definitely handicap you and it takes some experience to decide upon the best build for a given map (I still don't have enough), but I just don't think it's so extreme that there are maps where if you don't have skill X, you can't win. Besides, finding ways to win with different builds is half the fun of the game IMO.
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 14 Sep 2007, 18:27

Corribus wrote:Nice analysis, GOW. I don't remember the battle being a walk in the park either. It was very challenging, but that's a good thing IMO. I think that the characterization of the H5 campaigns requiring a very specific skill set is just incorrect.
Very specific is probably incorrect, but I do think you need a certain amount of foresight or knowledge about how the game works. Someone who hasn't played heroes before and just randomly chooses skills is likely to get into serious trouble.
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Unread postby Corribus » 14 Sep 2007, 18:47

Gaidal Cain wrote:Very specific is probably incorrect, but I do think you need a certain amount of foresight or knowledge about how the game works. Someone who hasn't played heroes before and just randomly chooses skills is likely to get into serious trouble.
(1) If you mean someone who hasn't played HoMM in general, then I agree somewhat, though most games have some sort of learning curve. But..

(2) .. I played the H5 campaigns without any prior knowledge of H5 skills and I did fine. Looking back on it, I certainly didn't pick the most optimal skill sets for each campaign (especially the original Warlock campaign - I really screwed Realag or whatever his name is up) but figuring out how to win with handicapped heroes was a big part of the fun.

The skill system is complex - no doubt about it - but that's to the game's credit, not to its detriment. Civ4 is even MORE complex, and I've gotten my ass handed to me several times in that game, particularly earlier on, because I didn't really know what I was doing. But I don't go around complaining that the game sucks because it's too complex, or whining because I have to start over. Isn't learning how to make good and varying strategies with the available options really the whole point behind a stragety game?
Last edited by Corribus on 14 Sep 2007, 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 14 Sep 2007, 20:05

Corribus wrote:(1) If you mean someone who hasn't played HoMM in general, then I agree somewhat, though most games have some sort of learning curve. But..
Yes, that's what I meant. The skill system, and extra need for some care, would make the campaigns harder. Not that this is very much different from older games.
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