new map from Pitsu

Maps and the art of mapmaking.

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Sir_Toejam
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new map from Pitsu

Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 26 2006, 0:59

ooh, Pitsu put up a map.

looks interesting...

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fiur
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Postby fiur » Oct 26 2006, 7:33

Agree I'm gonna play that map this weekend!

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Postby Paladine » Oct 26 2006, 11:21

This map has a bug. When the Green player comes through the portal exit near the black dragons if you get to close to him and don't manage to reach him but are strong enough to kill him, he gets scared and doesn't move then just before the end of his turn the game crashes every time.

I have tested this on multiple different days about 20 times now and it crashes every single time. Is it trying to run some sort of script when that player is cornered?

I basically have to wait until he comes in range now so I can kill him and hopefully get past this bug. Other than that I am enjoying this map so far.

Paladine

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Pitsu
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Postby Pitsu » Oct 26 2006, 11:34

Yes, I am aware that the green sometimes causes a crash, but have not managed to identify cause. Have modified and re-wrote the associated scripts many times and the last version did run fine for me, but obviously I was just lucky then. oh well, will look at it tonight some more...

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Postby Paladine » Oct 26 2006, 11:57

Pitsu wrote:Yes, I am aware that the green sometimes causes a crash, but have not managed to identify cause. Have modified and re-wrote the associated scripts many times and the last version did run fine for me, but obviously I was just lucky then. oh well, will look at it tonight some more...


Well good luck with that, I know how much of a pain bug testing is. Like I said though, other than that I am thoroughly enjoying the map, just have to make sure I don't get too close to him if I can't reach him. He will eventually come into range and then he will be mine, oh yes he will be mine :)

Paladine

[Edit]
Looks like I am going to start the map again, green is frozen with fear even though I am nowhere near him. Because he has no way to get back to his own lands and he won't come anywhere near my castle, there is nowhere for him to go so it is crashing every turn now on his go. I thought if I got on my boat with my main hero he wouldn't be so scared and it worked for one turn but alas the end of the week draws nearer and now even though my main hero is on a boat green is soiling his undergarments.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 26 2006, 20:14

do the random "helpers" generated for each battle depend on difficulty settings?

playing on hard, I was shocked on the first day with my level 1 hero to see a group of 30 peasants summon a titan!

ouch.

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 26 2006, 20:52

The summoned creatures may be lvl7 even on easy difficulty. Their quantity grows in time (actually with bad luck on 2 first week they may be real killers, later you should have armies to handle lvl7 ones more easily)...

About crash. After a couple of tries tonight, got it too. At the moment when green hero visited a dolmen of knowledge... Since there aren't any more scripts than deploying the hero one the day he arrives, the cause of the problem is really beyond me. Damn. I would say, take a save, cheat and kill the problemmaker if it happens.

There are two heroes who can cause problems, if they do the cheats would be either:

Code: Select all

@RemoveObject"Agrael"); or @RemoveObject"Ildar");


or if you know your main hero co-ordinates:

Code: Select all

@SetObjectPosition("Agrael", x, y, 0);
Last edited by Pitsu on Oct 26 2006, 21:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 26 2006, 21:15

Is there a way you can limit the random summons depending on the army as seen on the adventure map?

maybe limit level 1 armies to being able to summon anything up to level 2, level 2 to level 3, level 3 to 4, etc.

It's a bit too unpredictable as it is, so there is no way to plan your army for what you expect to take on.

I mean a "little" surprise is one thing, but seeing a small group of peasants summon a titan is quite another!

if it's just bad luck, it keeps happening to me, anyway. so much so I gave up after losing pretty much all of my troops in the first week, just trying to take the two mines near the town!

It's kinda hard to take down a titan with a level 2 hero and a few golems, gargs, and a couple dozen gremlins. You can't simply "ingore" it either, as it will still wipe out all of your troops while you try to take the peasants out instead.
Last edited by Sir_Toejam on Oct 27 2006, 0:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 26 2006, 21:46

Sir_Toejam wrote:Is there a way you can limit the random summons depending on the army as seen on the adventure map?

maybe limit level 1 armys to being able to summon anything up to level 2, level 2 to level 3, level 3 to 4, etc.


The easiest would be to ban lvl 7 and 6 for say first two weeks.
At some point i was thinking to limit the summoned one unly to a faction of units (spellcasters mainly), but abandoned it later on some reason. Since one can re-arrage troops and plan tactics after seeing who he is he against I though in long run it would be more interesting to have lot of combinations. But if people in next days complain some more about it, i can fix it for the weekend.

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Postby Paladine » Oct 26 2006, 21:59

Pitsu wrote:
Sir_Toejam wrote:Is there a way you can limit the random summons depending on the army as seen on the adventure map?

maybe limit level 1 armys to being able to summon anything up to level 2, level 2 to level 3, level 3 to 4, etc.


The easiest would be to ban lvl 7 and 6 for say first two weeks.
At some point i was thinking to limit the summoned one unly to a faction of units (spellcasters mainly), but abandoned it later on some reason. Since one can re-arrage troops and plan tactics after seeing who he is he against I though in long run it would be more interesting to have lot of combinations. But if people in next days complain some more about it, i can fix it for the weekend.


I actually enjoyed that side of the map. Yes it is tough when you lose all your archers on day 2 taking on 30 gremlins because they summon 2 spectre dragons and a bunch of those hell horse things, but it stops you from just getting into the standard routine.

I don't know about others but after playing HOMM for so many years now, I tend to be quite systematic in the first couple of months of a game. I develop my cities in a certain way and I have patterns to the number of heroes I have out in the map etc., so the only interesting stuff tends to start about month 3. By this time I have my town fully upgraded and a reasonable army to send out with my main hero.

But having these unexpected suprises in your map forces me to play in a completely different style, makes me think more and do things in ways I might not have thought of normally.

So I would say leave it in, I don't mind getting my butt kicked every now and again after all it is only a game :)

Paladine

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 26 2006, 23:40

I don't know about others but after playing HOMM for so many years now, I tend to be quite systematic in the first couple of months of a game


...and some of us actually like that aspect of the game, but then, I'm a big chess fan.

I don't like nor expect a pawn to suddenly start acting like a queen.

this is one of those things where I would say the script is unique, and well done for that, but not to my preference.

i wouldn't rate the map down for it, just the opposite in fact, but it just ain't my cup o tea.

scripts requiring the location of quest objects to open new paths, these things appeal to me. Unique layouts that make one consider how to deploy and split one's armies are good too. both of these things this map has.

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Postby AndrewN » Oct 27 2006, 13:10

Hmm, I was going to email Pitsu about this map, but as there is a thread I will contribute here.

Apart from using it as a 'proof of concept' the idea of summoning extra units for the neutral stacks is a poor idea as it removes a large element of skill in the game.

Normally when you attack a neutral stack you know roughly how strong force is and you will have some idea if you can take it. If you don't think you can then you wait a bit. But with these extra stacks it is just a lottery as to what happens. For example in the 2nd game I tried, I attacked a group of Stone Gargoyles with an early 2nd week army (16 vampires, 3 liches, about 180 skelly archers and some zombies {the extra vampire came from the hero which specialiese in vampires} and a low level hero). Imagine my surprise when they summoned 3 Green Dragons and some Horned Overseer's, all my troops were in range of the dragons who naturaly had the first move. I won the battle by killing the Gargoyles but lost all my Vampires and Liches and 2/3rds of the Skellies, there was no way to kill 3 dragons with the army I had. If instead some 4th and 5th level creatures had been summoned then I probably could have won with much less loss. As it was there was nothing I could do for the rest of the week as I had lost most of my forces.

I have no problems with the AI heroes and their armies being boosted, infact one of the fun things in HOMMIV was to see exactly how powerful the mapmaker had made the AI heroes, but making the map this way will just make the average player (like me) give up.

If you want the map to be difficult then make the neutral stacks of a higher level, or larger numbers, or both, but give the player some kind of chance.

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 27 2006, 19:23

The last uploaded version has lvl7 and upgraded lvl 6 banned.

AndrewN wrote:
If you want the map to be difficult then make the neutral stacks of a higher level, or larger numbers, or both, but give the player some kind of chance.


The point is not easy vs hard, but one unit company vs an complex army. It doesn't really matter whether there are 100 or 200 zombies, but it is a different story when it is a combination of melee and ranged fighters.

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Postby AndrewN » Oct 27 2006, 22:57

Pitsu wrote:The last uploaded version has lvl7 and upgraded lvl 6 banned.


Is this version 1.1? If so it isn't working as the first stack I attacked summoned an Archangel. I downloaded the map again about 30 minutes ago.

Pitsu wrote:The point is not easy vs hard, but one unit company vs an complex army. It doesn't really matter whether there are 100 or 200 zombies, but it is a different story when it is a combination of melee and ranged fighters.


Ah, I see what you are trying to do and I do agree with your aims, although killing a large stack of zombies with archer fire can be fun :devil: . This is one area (of many) where Heroes 4 was better.

In this case I think the script needs to be a bit more subtle, the summoned creatures should be of the same or similar alignment and within a couple of levels of the creatures in question. It seems quite strange that some skeletons manage to summon Elder Druids, which did happen. It might be better to summon something from the first 3 levels of Dungeon, Inferno and/or Necropolis to assist the Skeletons. I only mention these 3 as they are on the same side of the faction document that came with the game, I assume this indicates some kind of relationship and wasn't just random :)

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 28 2006, 6:59

the spawn script seems much more toned down in this version, AFAICT.

summons were no more than 1 or 2 levels above the main stack.

adds a nice bit of unpredictability without going overboard.

now, can you tell me what to do with the red hero that jumps into my territory (via the one way portal) on day 5 with the following army:

~30 Archmages
5 mages
15 Djinn
75 gremlins
15 "dread reapers" (those nasty level 7 undead buggers)
2 pheonixes

even with everything going my way, i can't figure out how to beat an army like that in the first week. It would be extremely tough to beat in the second week (again, if everthing went my way). It would even be a hard challenge in the third week.

I think Pitsu thinks the game far too easy, and wanted to add some real challenge!

:-D

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 28 2006, 7:40

Sir_Toejam wrote:now, can you tell me what to do with the red hero that jumps into my territory (via the one way portal) on day 5 with the following army:


Did you make a quick run to the quest item axe? This hero is released when you touch the axe (but sometimes he doesn't go directly to the teleport and appears later). Also later in game, progress in main objectives is the main triggerer of AI interest towards you.
Last edited by Pitsu on Oct 28 2006, 8:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 28 2006, 7:59

AndrewN wrote:Is this version 1.1? If so it isn't working as the first stack I attacked summoned an Archangel. I downloaded the map again about 30 minutes ago.


Indeed, the very first time the variables are defined outside of the main script, therefore the first battle still had a chance to get lv 6 and 7. Sorry about that.

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Postby meows » Oct 28 2006, 8:52

Just starting this map.. I like what I see so far, and have not engaged any mobs yet,, Just exploring and building up my armys after reading the posts here..

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Oct 28 2006, 20:21

Did you make a quick run to the quest item axe?


yup. he appeared the very next turn.

the stack guarding the axe was very weak (couple dozen minotaurs). maybe make that stack much more powerful, to reflect the kind of thing you will have to face soon after taking it?

that way, the player will wait to take the axe until a decent force is built up.

just a thought.

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Postby Paladine » Oct 29 2006, 13:09

Pitsu wrote:The summoned creatures may be lvl7 even on easy difficulty. Their quantity grows in time (actually with bad luck on 2 first week they may be real killers, later you should have armies to handle lvl7 ones more easily)...

About crash. After a couple of tries tonight, got it too. At the moment when green hero visited a dolmen of knowledge... Since there aren't any more scripts than deploying the hero one the day he arrives, the cause of the problem is really beyond me. Damn. I would say, take a save, cheat and kill the problemmaker if it happens.

There are two heroes who can cause problems, if they do the cheats would be either:

Code: Select all

@RemoveObject"Agrael"); or @RemoveObject"Ildar");


or if you know your main hero co-ordinates:

Code: Select all

@SetObjectPosition("Agrael", x, y, 0);


I don't understand how to cheat? Furthermore, my second attempt at this map and I appear to be stuck. I got the axe and the other guy came through the portal but now I have nowhere else to go. The big doors to the desert won't let me through and there doesn't appear to be any way to move North and south is a no go as well. When I get on my boat I am unable to land anywhere but my own area, so I am complately stuck.

What am I missing?

Paladine


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