Markkur, H5 Mapping Ideas & Questions

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Markkur, H5 Mapping Ideas & Questions

Postby markkur » Jul 8 2013, 14:53

Edit= Here is a link to a text-guide I've made on making an H5 Map.

http://forum.eternal-essence.com/showthread.php?tid=168






I'm curious as to what folks would think about playing a map where there's a war between the "upgrades & Alt-upgrades of a faction"?

Say, 2/3 towns were one type and 2/3 more towns the other upgrade? i.e. Red Haven Troops versus the 1st Upgrade line-up.[/size]
Last edited by markkur on Dec 22 2013, 16:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby wimfrits » Jul 9 2013, 7:38

Sounds like an interesting concept.

An obvious issue with that is that the alternative upgrades would always win :D
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby markkur » Jul 9 2013, 12:16

I know that's true in some cases but do you think its true in all? i.e.

Let's look at Haven.

Defensive-Peasants versus Offensive Peasants(isn't that always the case)<L> Even all the way. W. Ellaine (+$), it's better to have the Conscripts.

Marksman vs. Crossbowman = Crossbow wins

Squire vs Vindicator = Even? Serious Defense (others) versus Serious Offense

Imperial-Griffin vs Battle-Griffin = sorta even; going airborn often is a big +
against strong casters.

Inquisitor vs Zealot = Zealots; but the Inquisitors have more spells if needed.


Paladin versus Champion = Paladin's lay-hands is perfect for me; dark magic Caster's are too often mass-strong plus the "immune to Frenzy" while the Champions Charge is awesome but too hit and miss.

Archangel versus Seraph = ArchAngel for me; 1 Resurrection-cast is a huge saver of Archers during creeping in a long games.

One thing that could be done regardless of my thoughts; we could make combo-lists for better balance...if they could be agreed upon :D

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Postby wimfrits » Jul 10 2013, 8:02

markkur wrote:I know that's true in some cases but do you think its true in all? i.e. Let's look at Haven.


Somewhat. I think overall the alternatives are the better choice, though with Stronghold and Dungeon the difference is less apparent.
If you disable Haven in the map, the odds would be a lot better :D

Conscript =< Brute. Close but offensive makes them fodder+ instead of simple fodder
Marksman << Crossbowman
Squire < Vindicator. Cleave >> bash as it will trigger every time. Shield others is compensated by the vindicators higher stats
Imperial Griffin < Battle Griffin. Abilities are more or less equal. Battle Griffin's stats are higher.
Inquisitor < Zealot. Better spells. Better stats.
Paladin < Champion. Lay hands can be nice vs neutrals. Immune to Frenzy is pretty much useless (1. the opponent is Haven so has little chance to get Dark magic. 2. immunity just means the opponent will cast frenzy on another stack). That leaves Champion Charge to tip the scales.
Archangel = Seraph. Not sure about this one. Archangel has better stats. I fear the Seraph's spells more than I do Resurrect.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby markkur » Jul 11 2013, 13:20

<<From: Mixing Heroes and Factions>>
mr.hackcrag wrote: I think part of the problem is with the mapmakers putting super artifacts everywhere and a bunch of stat raising sites. I enjoy maps where those things are seldom or very hard to acquire.


I like that style of play very much also. For me, a game in the world of HoMM is like eating sweets...they're all quite tasty.

It really depends what sort of mood I'm in and what sort of map I've been working on the most lately. i.e. After play-testing a epic build-up-map many times, I'll create a Duel, where there's not a thing to do but battle-rage. "Patience hell, I gotta eat something!" (world-famous buzzard quote)

You're spot-on about the map-maker's overloading maps; I've done the very same. Rich maps are desired by many however, <imo> but more often, a loaded map is part of one person's "learning-curve in creating maps". The problem began immediately however because of the H5 Editor limitations; (scripting requirements) the bulk of new map-makers could not easily do anything more, so they moved on very quickly.

I would have thought "UBI might have finally understood the importance of easy-settings long before releasing H6; of course they did not or rather <imvho> did not want to re-create the Editor as the "complete" powerful tool, that it once was. I imagine this was because of a huge swing in the purpose of their game; away from the Fan-made-community, towards to the Conflux and social-stuff of new/young gamers. :ill:

Anyway, moving on from that sore-spot; I have all sorts of maps that you can " 'Hack' Mr. Crag " :D Give me some idea of "your perfect map", size, # of factions, fixed or random, TP- yes or no, etc. I'm sure I have one that fits the bill. How difficult?

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Postby markkur » Jul 11 2013, 13:52

Somewhat. I think overall the alternatives are the better choice, though with Stronghold and Dungeon the difference is less apparent.
If you disable Haven in the map, the odds would be a lot better :D


That's funny. Hm, maybe only allow Peasants on both sides? :D Hroom-Hoom...what if? Dreamy-stuff starts...I now present the greatest H5 maps ever made, you know, "like tomorrow or in the future"...the Trilogy... "The Pitchfork War!" :D part-one "The Fellowship of the Fork" , part 2 "The Two Taxpayers" and finally "The Return of the Hay" .


You're also correct about PM being no matter on a haven only map. <LOL> Good grief, sometimes I wonder if I've been kid-napped; then I remember, hell no! I'm not a kid! :D

Back to not so serious, how about you taking a faction, splitting the two upgrades and creating what you think would be more balanced line-ups?

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Jul 11 2013, 15:22

I want to try:

Conscript < Brute

Attack someone who can't retaliate and you might hit them again.

Marksman << Crossbowman

Needs rebalancing.

Squire = Vindicator.

Cleave always triggers while bash doesn't, but Shield Others can be nice if lacking deflect missle spell or facing strong ranged units.

Imperial Griffin < Battle Griffin.

Stronger retaliation ability and better stats.

Inquisitor < Zealot

Better spells and stats

Paladin > Champion

Canceling the debuffs can save the day.

Archangel ? Seraph

I don't think I've ever used Seraph and can't say. 8|

markkur wrote:
Anyway, moving on from that sore-spot; I have all sorts of maps that you can " 'Hack' Mr. Crag " :D Give me some idea of "your perfect map", size, # of factions, fixed or random, TP- yes or no, etc. I'm sure I have one that fits the bill. How difficult?


I like all sized maps except x-large (needs Hall of Decision ;) ), but prefer medium or large. I'd say 4-5 random factions is nice. Extremely difficult - make me cry. :(

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Postby wimfrits » Jul 13 2013, 6:51

markkur wrote:how about you taking a faction, splitting the two upgrades and creating what you think would be more balanced line-ups?


I'd take a pragmatic approach and just switch all the even numbered tiers :)
But wouldn't mixing things up defeat the concept of your map?
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby markkur » Jul 13 2013, 8:00

wimfrits wrote: I'd take a pragmatic approach and just switch all the even numbered tiers


I'd be ok with that but without weighing each creatures stats, couldn't that have as bad of a resulting balance, (that you mentioned) as using all-alts in one group and the 1st UPs in the other?


wimfrits wrote:But wouldn't mixing things up defeat the concept of your map?


Not really. I couldn't use "Red-haven" (haven version)as part of the war's description but that would be it; instead I could make each town type one color, so at a glance you would know which side the town was on. :D This also works on a daylight map. Purple=Royalty versus Green=Envy. <L>

Also there could be neutral towns that offered no upgrades (No-color)and then the side that captured the town would have to take those troops back for training<LOL> And possible shortcut; iirc I was successful with placing Hill-Forts out side of towns that would only upgrade to one list or the other.

Each hiring-list would still be dedicated to only one side. I would have to set what creatures are allowed in the town from both (internal)lists instead, so it would be a little more hassle but the concept should be the very same.

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Postby wimfrits » Jul 13 2013, 11:30

markkur wrote:I'd be ok with that but without weighing each creatures stats, couldn't that have as bad of a resulting balance, (that you mentioned) as using all-alts in one group and the 1st UPs in the other?


Well.. as (in the Haven case) I think the alternatives are ALL equal to or better than their counterparts, mixing will result in an equal or better balance :D

But I think this setup would work better for Haven:
1. Conscript, Marksman, Vindicator, Imperial Griffin, Zealot, Paladin, Seraph
2. Brute, Crossbowman, Squire, Battle Griffin, Inquisitor, Champion, Archangel

The design aspects you mention seem good.

(edit: mixed up the tier-2 names)
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby markkur » Jul 13 2013, 13:53

wimfrits wrote:But I think this setup would work better for Haven:
1. Conscript, Crossbowman, Vindicator, Imperial Griffin, Zealot, Paladin, Seraph
2. Brute, Marksman, Squire, Battle Griffin, Inquisitor, Champion, Archangel

The design aspects you mention seem good.


Sounds good to me; that will be Haven's line-ups and the other factions will be your..."true alterating upgrades". :D i.e. yes, no, yes, no <versus> no, yes, no, yes. :D

I'm thinking;
1-6 human players - two teams - large map with "some" underground

The Towns = the 6 basic resources for each, a windmill, a spell shrine, 2 dolmans and 1 free witch-hut and 1 unguarded Sylanna. The lands around towns are open-for more % of possible weekly creatures and there's only a few campfires between towns and no other treasures.

Between the enemies = varied gold and abandoned mines - a few bonus and treasure buildings - a few Stables (none for Haven=version) - random-Creature-Dwellings (lvls 1-3...set to match town type) - a few War-Machines Factories - and a few guarded-Warrior Tombs.

In general: Tear of Asha w/ Monoliths is on the map * No Dragon Utopias * ATT and DEF artifacts only. No Morale or Luck bonus * Some water w/ external shipyards with "lots" of water treasure and a few Sunken Temples. All spells available except "summon creatures" Only fighting artifacts will be allowed

Possible variations for other map-versions: Depending on the faction; only magic artifacts or fighting artifacts will be allowed * Locations of Hill-forts; near or far* added Faction Outposts for 4th-7th level creatures * Shipyards inside some/all towns.

Any further tweaks?

btw, @ all Atm, anyone can still contribute to this map.

Thank you wimfrits for engaging in this mindsprinkle of mine...(I think brainstorming a tad too grand). Tis a nice change to hear another's ideas and not have my questions answered by...total silence.

Two years ago, when I joined the community, I would have guessed that the folks would jump at the chance to have a mapmaker listen to them and be willing to implement their ideas;but that's not proved true. However TYs need to go to Mr.HackCrag and Bonzer for breaking the trend recently here at CH!

One more thing to mull-over; Names, "The Haven UnCivil War" :D and then doing the other factions?

Cheers to deep thinking!

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Postby markkur » Jul 18 2013, 15:07

wimfrits, the map is almost finished and ofc, you've got the credits for the line-ups. :D

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Postby markkur » Jul 18 2013, 16:03

mr.hackcrag wrote: I like all sized maps except x-large (needs Hall of Decision ;) ), but prefer medium or large. I'd say 4-5 random factions is nice. Extremely difficult - make me cry. :(


Sorry for the delay my friend; my memory went to play outside for a while. :D

Try/test this map: Towns of Ashan_Heroic_ver.1

http://forum.eternal-essence.com/showthread.php?tid=129

It's not exactly your' comment above but it's close enough for horseshoes, hand-grenades and shaving. :D

"J"-Settings- should be Heroic/Heroic. I think the new A.I. will make this map a Monster; it's harder than I enjoy already.

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Postby wimfrits » Jul 19 2013, 13:02

markkur wrote:wimfrits, the map is almost finished and ofc, you've got the credits for the line-ups. :D


As in "Any complaints regarding balance can be sent to.." ;)
Good to hear your map is coming along
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby markkur » Jul 19 2013, 14:51

wimfrits wrote:As in "Any complaints regarding balance can be sent to.." ;) Good to hear your map is coming along


Well, there is that too but I doubt we'll hear any grumbles...or praises for that matter. In my couple of years of mapmaking I've not heard much of either; I'm pretty sure you'll agree, that is not a good thing.

I wonder why it is that if a gamer decides to voice an opine it's usually a negative one but if they are asked for ideas or if they enjoy a map they've little to say? Maybe the art of constructive criticism is a lost lore. :D

Once the map is done I'll send it to you for a trial-run.

@All fans of Necromancy
I've been making some rather difficult maps for a while now and I'm kind of tired of Heroic-challenges. I have an idea for a map that should prove overpowered-fun and may be some good therapy.<L> I've recently came across a Necro-Mod that tweaks the stats for a Turbo-Necro, so I'm making a new PRT-map that features both Mods.<slygrin>

"Vlaad's Throne" will be like this.
1. If you want to enjoy owning the world...play as Vlaad.
2. If you're a fan of the "forlorn-hope" and want to attempt to defeat Vlaad; there are five towns that graduate in both distance & power; from, the nearest town is "bone-fodder" to; the town furthest away being the strongest challenger.

I've found out how to add the Mod inside the Map...instead of the Game. It's an easy bit, put the Map in to the "Maps"-folder to play...and you-must take it out of "Maps" when finished.

Cheers

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Postby wimfrits » Jul 19 2013, 15:31

I guess some people consider mapmaking a standard service. Or just don't realise how much feedback is appreciated. I can't complain though, with about 50 responses on over a million downloads :)

markkur wrote:Once the map is done I'll send it to you for a trial-run.


I'm afraid that won't do any good as I don't have H5 installed on my new pc. And I'm spending my limited play hours on Diablo3 atm
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby markkur » Jul 19 2013, 17:33

You are a very rare "bird" :D Assisting me on a game you quit playing? Goodness, you've earned a bigger...THANKS. <VBG>

"Maybe" more lurkers will contribute in the future as I plod along; with so many fans coming back to earlier versions.

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spooky, it's still there

Postby markkur » Jul 21 2013, 10:32

For anyone making maps, I just found a very new problem that has an old solution.

I used some Border-Guards on my current map to block 2-Way Portals, the seek the keymaster bit. However when playing, once we got the key, removed the Guard and went through the portal, we could not use its sister portal to come back!

Here we were looking at an empty space in front of the upper portal but could not use the lower portal to come back through. My wife said; it's like the game thinks the guard is still there. She was right.

Once she said that I rembered that there HAS to be one cell between the portal "to step through" For example you cannot if another of your Heroes is standing just on the other side of the portal.

What made this rather mind-blowing for me was the fact that the Border Guard had been removed and yet, as wifey said; it's like it is still there :D

Cheers

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Postby Tyber Zann » Sep 14 2013, 2:08

Some of the upgrades cancel each other out.

Crossbowman, no range penalty. Butttttt.....

Squires, shield other, -%50 damage to adjacent allies from ranged attack. They basically negate each other.

As for generic differences,

Bash is better than 2 hitting cause it knocks back ATB, but it seems like double hitting Is a better chance.

Lay hands is awesome. Champion charge is more awesome, but when used at a good charge range. This gets tough after the first hit.

Ressurection WITH NO HP PENALTY is supremely awesome. Divine vengeance only works when u start losing lots of dudes. It's good, but limited to circumstance. Ur strategy can either rely on dieing a lot, or preventing death.

Really, I think personal skill would overcome the differences in the units. Only the brightest can take full advantage of everything at ur disposal. If 2 experts faced off, thatd be tough, but 2 averagers like me, anyones game.

Great idea though.
(Loud whisper) ["did u get the idea from the first HoF campaign?"] I thought the concept was cut short as well.

As a final note, the crossbowman is the shizzle. In a good way. Though, marksman do insane damage with their precise shot if u can lure a high tier enemy to them. Again, anyones game, unless it was like, deep blue facing its clone.

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Postby markkur » Sep 14 2013, 13:51

Did you mean to post here...in Maps? Your post seems intended for the Upgrade Mod discussion.


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