Legendary maps - what is the secret? :)

[Logan Warbringer]

There are a lot of great maps for all HoMM versions, of course. But some maps are not just "good" - they became legendary.

So...what "legendary" maps do you know and why are they so popular through the years?

I would name the following maps "legendary":

HMM1 - Dragon Pass, Four Corners (perhaps the most used template ever in mapmaking);

HMM2 - Beltway, Seven Lakes (massively reduplicated by HoMM 3 and HoMM 4 mapmakers), Lost Continent (first ever XL), Dominion, Dragon Wars, Great War II;

HMM3 - Crimson & Clover, Warlords, Warmongers, Myth & Legend, Longest Journey, The Empire of the World II (in my opinion best ever HMM3 map), Lone Knight, The Lord of War;

WoG: Okeania WoG;

HMM4 - 3x3, Plains of Despair, Heart of Winter, Fragile World, Draconic, Angels Are Back.

What maps would you add to this list, if any?

[Psychobabble]

HMM4 - 3x3, Plains of Despair, Heart of Winter, Fragile World, Draconic, Angels Are Back.

I'd add to that Wind of thorns and circle of life, the latter simply because it became essentially the default online map for ToH (dog days, cd map, is also up there and death valley too).

[Kristo]

HMM2 - Beltway, Seven Lakes (massively reduplicated by HoMM 3 and HoMM 4 mapmakers), Lost Continent (first ever XL), Dominion, Dragon Wars, Great War II;

I would add Broken Alliance to that list.

[Orfinn]

Some of the main ingredients for making a good map is hidden events at the most unexpected places, great story or several small stories dotted around the map. Also randomness makes up for a good replayability rating of the map

[Veldrynus]

I am trying to create a mapmaking guide about the recipe and creation of successful (legendary) maps, right now. In fact, it will feature some marketing hints and other secrets of making a map popular. If everything goes well, I will release it around next week.

[Psychobabble]

sounds cool. contact us if you're looking for hosting...

[Logan Warbringer]

Veldrinus, and what about your next map? Will Draconic III be created some day?

[cherko]

Didn't he quit mapping? Or am I wrong? Anyway, I think a legendary map HAS TO BE UNIQE. All my favourite maps I like cuz' they're uniqe.

[Corribus]

I'm not sure I'd agree, Cherko. Certainly there are a number of wonderful maps that stick in my mind due to their uniqueness, but there are also a number of wonderful maps that stick in my mind just because they were so well-balanced and re-playable, despite being nothing that out of the ordinary. This especially goes for some of the "legendary" H2 battlemaps.

[cherko]

Whatever, I don't play HoMM2. Not that I wouldn't want to! I love all old games, the older the better. It mkaes my crappy computer seem less crappy and my Nintendo 64 seem less out of date.

[Veldrynus]

Veldrinus, and what about your next map? Will Draconic III be created some day?

I am done with mapmaking. This time it is 100% sure. The guide will be my last work.
I had a great time doing maps, but all things have to end someday. I've lost the motivation, leaving a few (promising) projects unfinished. Unless I get a better PC, I won't be able to create maps for H5 either.

@ Corribus

Uniqueness in some way is neccessary. A legendary map must contain more than a usual map. Being absolutely well-balanced and re-playable is an unique feature. It reflects an uniquely well done design.

[Dragon Angel]

Add Islands&Caves to H3 for me, and maybe Rumble in the Bogs... for H4, Sea Politics is quite loved for some players.

What makes a map Legendary?... mm I can only tell for me, and basically for battlemaps (wich are a quite different kind of game than "history" adventures), but I'd say:

- A interesting and/or original setup, in history and/or layout
Seven Lakes is so remembered, amongst other things, probably because of the island/city start, that gave a different layout to the map. Maps using the Four courners "template" would need to give something different if they want to win the original.

- Controlled Openness
In a good battlemap you should be able to take many paths to victory... however, some choke points might be also needed... Coming back to Seven Lakes: The web-structure of the non-island part of the map was quite nice.

- Replayability
Random is a word many history-mappers don't want to hear, but IMHO it's a must in battlemaps (even if it compromises balance a bit - wich hopefully will be better controlled with new editors, either via Peon values, with possible-creature-checklists or with links amongst random objects). A battlemap should be a different challenge every time you play it. Even if you already know the scenario... it should be possible you might need to use other tactics to win.

- Bonuses/Maluses
In fact, this may be considered part of the map layout. Spicing the map with wisely placed bonus points or big-enemy-bosses, different to standart players may make a difference -- even just history-revealing locations (think Myth & Legend). This difference can make the map be original or stand above others -- it can also sink the map, so be careful!

[Veldrynus]

- Replayability
Random is a word many history-mappers don't want to hear, but IMHO it's a must in battlemaps (even if it compromises balance a bit - wich hopefully will be better controlled with new editors, either via Peon values, with possible-creature-checklists or with links amongst random objects). A battlemap should be a different challenge every time you play it. Even if you already know the scenario... it should be possible you might need to use other tactics to win.

Here is my opinion about randomness : In player vs. player games it can and will destroy the balance. The best player should win the game, not the lucky one. The map has to give many strategical and tactical oportunities to players, making it replayable and more complex in the same time. There are many features in the game based on randomness, so eliminating all of them is impossible. Having control over major adventure objects (like towns, mines and dwellings), wandering monsters, and especially over treasures, is enough.
I realize, some players like the randomness. This is a fact. But, it is also a proven fact, that it has negative effects on the balance, wich is the most important part of multiplayer games.

[cherko]

After all, how can a map be Legendary if it has nothing new to offer? Except for a few great multiplayer maps, a map has to be uniqe to be legendary!
I'd like to add Lords of Velsharion to the list. It's a perfect multiplayer map, cuz' it's the most balanced one I've ever seen. Spiritmongers isn't too balanced, but I'd like to add that one too, cuz' it's uniqe AND fun. And the terrain's good too.

[Thelonious]

Unless I get a better PC, I won't be able to create maps for H5 either.

Are you asking that we (the forum) buy a computer for you so we can enjoy new maps from you?

[Veldrynus]

Unless I get a better PC, I won't be able to create maps for H5 either.

Are you asking that we (the forum) buy a computer for you so we can enjoy new maps from you?

Hey ! That's a good idea ! Why not ? I would be satisfied with cash too.

[Thelonious]

Then we could buy stuff for all HoMM players round here... we'd end up with the same thing - nothing.

[cherko]

Unless I get a better PC, I won't be able to create maps for H5 either.

Are you asking that we (the forum) buy a computer for you so we can enjoy new maps from you?

Hey ! That's a good idea ! Why not ? I would be satisfied with cash too.

Hey, why don't we just buy you Heroes IV? And pay you money so you won't have to work, and buy you some coffee so you can make thousands of legendary maps!

[Veldrynus]

Agreed. For every 250$ you send me, I create a map ( XL, undergound, with all good stuff you can imagine ) !

[Metathron]

I'm not sure I'd agree, Cherko. Certainly there are a number of wonderful maps that stick in my mind due to their uniqueness, but there are also a number of wonderful maps that stick in my mind just because they were so well-balanced and re-playable, despite being nothing that out of the ordinary. This especially goes for some of the "legendary" H2 battlemaps.

I heartily agree. The maps I played the most, such as Broken Alliance, Buried Treasure and Sea Politics, were not exactly paragons of originality but they had that something that made them perpetually interesting and fun to play.