Heroes III: how would you rank the towns?

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Pitsu
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Postby Pitsu » Nov 26 2011, 10:43

Salamandre wrote:All I can say is: if you get your phoenixes growing, and amass a large force from them, it is your opponent fault, he gave you way too much time. It is not conflux who wins, but his laziness.


I'd say it is more complex. Conflux starting armies are good and at days 1-4 they should be at least a fair match to any other town. Firebird is the cheapest (with behemoth) lvl7 unit with not the most valuable upgrade. Phoenix gains +33% health, +6 to already good speed, +3 attack and a special that requires them to die. IMO most other lvl7s have more valuable upgrades. Hence, the era of unupgraded lvl7 should be again time for conlux to press on. Only when the game is not decided before upgraded lvl7 start to accumulate it is conflux time to wait and hope for its superior weekly HP output.
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Postby Salamandre » Nov 26 2011, 11:29

Yes, game situations are complex, story telling them is simple

In my opinion, relics, level 7 dwelling on week one, huge armies are single player related, to give big satisfaction when no social life :D

For multiplayer, all those bonuses should become really hard to acquire. If you place two random relics for free in each one's land, and one is captain hat and the other helm of Enlightenment, it simply means +24 levels for the second player. Unacceptable, they should be used with big care, and the way to acquire each of them should be a game goal, not just pick.

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Postby tone » Nov 26 2011, 16:02

relics are everywhere on heroes 3. and most importnt magic block artifacts. recanter's cloack is so easy to find

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Postby Tress » Nov 26 2011, 16:10

tone wrote:relics are everywhere on heroes 3. and most importnt magic block artifacts. recanter's cloack is so easy to find


Still there is no magic or integrated reason why player that picks Confux would be denied to get good artifacts.
Conflux units by no means are invincible but question is down to : does Conflux units/etc gives player advantage to expand faster and get stronger army by time castle(or any other) do it. I would say - perhaps yes. Insane speed that Phoenixes provide alone gives decent advantage to control map. Reasoning that you have by some magic means angelic alliance/armor of damned and plethora of other relics(and conflux apparently doesn't) doesn't prove that conflux is weak.

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Postby tone » Nov 26 2011, 22:04

if two heroes had same skills and decent magic block castle units or tower or rampart are very easy superior than conflux.

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Postby Tress » Nov 26 2011, 22:22

Based on what? Weekly groth, hp, numbers?
Also there is really few anti magic artifacts. Recanters cloak hurts castle no less than conflux as it benefits from low level spells like bless, etc. Orb on other hand is far from common.

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Postby tone » Nov 26 2011, 22:54

based on units. archangel>2 phoenix, champion>psichi element, crusader> energy element. griffin pack> water elem pack, air elem marksman depends, upgr pikeman>>> spirites. tower almost same story

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Postby tone » Nov 27 2011, 0:14

+ morale bonus on castle, conflux must ocupy one space to put artifact that blocks morale

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Postby Bandobras Took » Nov 27 2011, 1:49

tone wrote:who what where? what challenge?


This one.

Banedon wrote:So be it then. XL on King level. Pick a map, pick a duration, pick a colour. You use any race, I'll use Conflux. We'll see who amasses the bigger (better) army in the time given.


It's time to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. :)
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Postby tone » Nov 27 2011, 17:08

how we arange the fight?

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Postby Salamandre » Nov 27 2011, 17:46

tone wrote:relics are everywhere on heroes 3. and most importnt magic block artifacts. recanter's cloack is so easy to find


That's my point. They should NOT be everywhere, but heavily guarded and in specific areas. What's the point of playing Heroes game if recanter and red orb are at your castle gate?

I must be able to smash the other player before he puts his hand on relics which can change the outcome.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Nov 27 2011, 23:59

tone wrote:how we arange the fight?


It's not a fight. You name the map, both you and Banedon play it separately on your own time, then after the number of days has elapsed, you post the results, and leave it for the rest of us to determine who has the stronger army and the better chance of winning.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby tone » Nov 28 2011, 2:37

no need name of map. a good random map xl

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Postby klaymen » Nov 28 2011, 10:54

Random map is a stupid idea, actually. You know, since it is a comparison, you should have the same conditions.

Since random map is really random, one of you may start under very (un)favorable conditions and that will defeat the purpose of this comparison. Also it will be easy to generate a map many times over to get good conditions.
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Postby Pitsu » Nov 28 2011, 14:29

Random maps have the randomness problem. However based on one map it may be hard to make solid conclusions anyway.

As far as i have tried, even with some bad luck on first days conflux comes out better. Particularly on hardest difficulty. I am still wondering about the time factor in Tone' matches.
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Postby Banedon » Nov 28 2011, 14:56

@Salamandre - I'll take a look at that map when I have the time, but I'll still say this: in most the maps that I've played (and I use the maps that come with the game), rival factions run into each other in the middle of week 2. I can see maps like Elbow Room ending in the first week, but they are imo a bit dumb.

Hiring heroes like crazy doesn't sound very appealing because each one of them is 2.5k gold for one level 1 creature that you can't use. You need to get enough resources with that hero to pay for the 2.5k cost. If you have 7 heroes out there roaming the map then chances are many of them will not get enough resources (you did that yourself in some saves you uploaded a while ago, you had a hero parked on a Water Wheel doing nothing for several turns). My policy is to hire as many heroes as I need, which usually comes to 3-4, and then use the rest in creatures.

tone if you want to generate a map and then upload it somewhere, feel free. Take a screenshot of your first turn, too.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby tone » Nov 28 2011, 15:31

i agree with more tries t oget good conditions on random map. we play the same on king level. if our ore and wood mine are blocked by heavy armies we make another.

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Postby Banedon » Nov 29 2011, 8:04

Generate a map, save it, and upload it somewhere together with a screenshot of your position at the beginning of the first day. Also tell me how long you intend to play the map for. Don't give too long a time, though: if you say something like 4 months, there's a good chance I may have finished the map by then.

King / Impossible difficulty is a bit dumb imo because of the huge amount of randomness in the first week, but whatever. Generate the map, upload it, and we'll play it.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby Pitsu » Nov 29 2011, 10:37

I think for a 2 player XL map comparison of strengths at start of weeks 5, 7 and 9 would be appropriate. It is unlikely to meet other in the first month. Two weeks later and encounter should be expected and if one side is trying to win time/turtling then by the start of third month aggressive player should have made to his doorsteps.

Of course a question is what about secondary armies as you most likely capture and build other towns beside starting one.
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Postby klaymen » Dec 25 2011, 9:00

So, how's the fight going? Any results?
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