[Poll]Strongest town excluding Conflux

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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What's the stongest town in Homm 3 without Flux

Castle
25
40%
Dungeon
8
13%
Fortress
2
3%
Inferno
0
No votes
Necropolis
13
21%
Rampart
9
15%
Stronghold
1
2%
Tower
4
6%
 
Total votes: 62

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Muszka
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Postby Muszka » Oct 17 2008, 9:54

What if we talk about impossible difficulty game?
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Postby Chai26 » Oct 17 2008, 10:28

Muszka wrote:What if we talk about impossible difficulty game?



woahhhhhh, muszka, don't push it here, i never play impossible, the hardest i played was very hard diff(and it gave me much of headaches and sweating)
, so i cant comment on impossible :(
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 17 2008, 11:10

You see, that's why I take Dungeon. :)

First thing is, that I agree with Banedon about the Inferno. Every Inferno player halfway worth their name will creep like there's no tomorrow and Castle IS slower. I'd ALWAYS prefer the Inferno over Castle in real games. In THEORY a fully developed Castle may be unparallelled in sheer damage output, but in practise AAs are extremely expensive and the only thing that keeps you from being massacred are the plentiful and pretty good Griffins.

Anyway, the thing with Dungeon is: THEY HAVE NO WEAK SPOT outside of their own town. It doesn't matter what kind of map there is played or what kind of difficulty level: the Dungeon will deliver. Their only weakness is an all around low damage output (and thank god for that).
1) Best starting troops of all factions
2) Best hero selection considering they come BOTH with strong might AND strong magic heroes.
3) A killer mage guild
4) Movement bonus on a whole LEVEL (you'll get a movement bonus for being underground, no matter the terrain)
5) As soon as there are outside creature dwellings beginning with level 3 you are drawing even on sheer troop strength due to your ability of getting double the amount from one outside dwelling (not that additional Harpies would be a royal pain, at least not for the Dungeon player).
6) They have a fine creature line-up:
Level 6 and 7 flyers, 2 mid-level shooters, 1 hybrid shooter-flyer, 2 walker, one of which is fast and deadly, and two creatures have paralyzing abilities. Plus creatures are fast allaround - the speed structure is nice. There just in no better town to take another town than Dungeon.

Which simply means you have an awful lot of options, and since the town is so versatile I think it's the best. You could say, with Dungeon there will always be a play for victory. If you specify a certain situation you may most of the time maybe find another town that may be better suited, but not many.
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Postby Corbon » Oct 17 2008, 11:43

1) Best starting troops of all factions
Trogs SUCK. Useless special ability and average to low stats throughout. To top it off they are overpriced and they'll slow down your Hags considerably. In a Lv 1 ranking they would usually be ranked last, so everything is focused on the Hags. I'd say that Castle's Halb's + Mark's and Rampart's Centaurs + Dwarves are the better combo.
2) Best hero selection considering they come BOTH with strong might AND strong magic heroes.
True, the heroes are killers. Sephinroth will outlast any other magic user, Alamar and Jeddite start with Resurrection(!), Malekith is a powerful spellcaster. And the Overlords have a very balanced stats distribution growth. An extra level right from the start gives them another edge.
3) A killer mage guild
Also true, good access to a whole variety of spells.
6) They have a fine creature line-up:
Level 6 and 7 flyers, 2 mid-level shooters, 1 hybrid shooter-flyer, 2 walker, one of which is fast and deadly, and two creatures have paralyzing abilities. Plus creatures are fast all around - the speed structure is nice. There just in no better town to take another town than Dungeon.

In an end-game 6 Spot setup your Trogs will be left at home. Lv 2 is the best unit, Lv 3 is decent but also overpriced and lacks behind Grand Elves in long range power but makes an ok melee unit. Lv 4 is cheap but the stats are fairly low. Nasty in close encounters though. Lv 5 is hardcore infantry, highest damage, great speed, no real weakness (average HP). Lv 6 is poor, too costly and weak stats and while the special works against almost anything, it's also unpredictable. Slightly better than Wyverns, but no match for Sultans. Lv 7, well BD's rock for a number of reasons, period.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 17 2008, 11:59

Corbon wrote:1) Best starting troops of all factions
Trogs SUCK. Useless special ability and average to low stats throughout. To top it off they are overpriced and they'll slow down your Hags considerably. In a Lv 1 ranking they would usually be ranked last, so everything is focused on the Hags. I'd say that Castle's Halb's + Mark's and Rampart's Centaurs + Dwarves are the better combo.
.

Umm, when I say starting troops I mean STARTING TROOPS in "what heroes come equipped with". Sure Trogs are indeed overpriced and all, but the heroes come with something like 35 of them. And simple Trogs are better than Gremlins, Goblins, Imps and Pixies. Start with a three stack Shakti and you already have a lot to work with.

That's what I mean with it.
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Postby Corbon » Oct 17 2008, 12:12

Good, but no one runs around and clears mines etc. with regular Gremlins (and Pixies for that matter). Upgrading them is on of the first things a Tower hero will do.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 17 2008, 12:25

Sure, but that's exactly my point. :)
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Postby Muszka » Oct 17 2008, 12:33

Don't forget that while you upgrade pixies and gremlins the dungeon player upgrades Harpies and those are damn nasty. With troggies as fodder and Harpies as killers + a good magic arrow, it's a nice creeping. With some luck you can creep with just harpies + magic arrows.

JJ wrote:Their only weakness is an all around low damage output (and thank god for that).
I would say that Conflux has an even lower damage output.

Chai wrote:woahhhhhh, muszka, don't push it here, i never play impossible, the hardest i played was very hard diff(and it gave me much of headaches and sweating)
I can't even remember when I played not on impossible in single player (I played some matches against weaker enemies who didn't wanted to play hard.). Even impossible is easy if you get used to it :)
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Postby Chai26 » Oct 17 2008, 12:33

well, guys i think we shouldnt discuss who is the strongest town or has the power to @$$ whooping, ppl play the town or race in which they prefer and enjoy, depending on their playing style of strategy , heroes is a competitive game,yes but saying which town is the best ruins the point of so much towns.
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Postby Corbon » Oct 17 2008, 13:17

I almost always play on Hard. I consider it the standard difficulty because the AI already plays at its highest level "intelligence-wise" and the resources are almost evenly distributed, so the player's only advantage is his (superior) knowledge about the game and map. On Very Hard and Impossible maps I usually play on Normal.

About discussing the town's strengths and weaknesses...well that's what a discussion beard is about, right? :P I only consider myself an average-good player, that's why topics like "Not so known facts" are of special interest to me.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 17 2008, 14:42

Muszka wrote:
JJ wrote:Their only weakness is an all around low damage output (and thank god for that).
I would say that Conflux has an even lower damage output.

Err, nope, sorry. You can compare it yourself, but Conflux' damage output is pretty good, actually.
For example, a Phoenix has damage 30-40, and Attack 21. Against a unit with defense 10, 4 Phoenixes will do an average of 217 points of damage WITHOUT any adjustment for Breat Attack (which we can leave out, since the Dungeon Dragons have a Breath Attack as well). 2 Dragons with 40-50 D and A 25 will do 157 points only which means that the Flux has +60 here (and if you allow 20% Adjustment for Breath Attack you are already at +72).
Dungeon level 6 does a modified 88 damage, while Conflux Level 6 does a basic 100 without including the multiple hex attack for which I would add a moderate 50%, bringing the total to 150.
Dungeon score with Level 5 and 120 points of damage against the meagre 67 of the Flux, but the lead is still pretty impressive.
Level 4 and 3 are pretty much a toss-up, while level 1 and 2 sees Conflux making points again.
Which results in a CLEAR damage plus.

If you'd be biassed for Dungeon you might argue that Levels 7 and 5 are evening themselves out, while the multi-hex attack can be compared with the paralyzing of the Scorps. Level 3 has no hand to hand penalty for Dungeon which should count for something, but that would leave Dungeon STILL short in damage.
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Postby Muszka » Oct 17 2008, 16:27

These are fact JJ and I cannot argue with them, but not every monster on the map has a defense of 10. I say that the Phoenixes suffer because of their attack. I played many-many games with Conflux, in AB, SoD and WoG. For a time it was my (kind-of) favorite beside Dungeon. So I don't speak in vain, I do it from my experience. it's a good town, a real strong one, fast in creeping, and magically great, but in practice it someone doesn't gives the wanted result. Not for me. :)
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Postby Banedon » Oct 17 2008, 21:23

Jolly Joker wrote:You see, that's why I take Dungeon. :)

Anyway, the thing with Dungeon is: THEY HAVE NO WEAK SPOT outside of their own town. It doesn't matter what kind of map there is played or what kind of difficulty level: the Dungeon will deliver. Their only weakness is an all around low damage output (and thank god for that).
1) Best starting troops of all factions
2) Best hero selection considering they come BOTH with strong might AND strong magic heroes.
3) A killer mage guild
4) Movement bonus on a whole LEVEL (you'll get a movement bonus for being underground, no matter the terrain)
5) As soon as there are outside creature dwellings beginning with level 3 you are drawing even on sheer troop strength due to your ability of getting double the amount from one outside dwelling (not that additional Harpies would be a royal pain, at least not for the Dungeon player).
6) They have a fine creature line-up:
Level 6 and 7 flyers, 2 mid-level shooters, 1 hybrid shooter-flyer, 2 walker, one of which is fast and deadly, and two creatures have paralyzing abilities. Plus creatures are fast allaround - the speed structure is nice. There just in no better town to take another town than Dungeon.

Which simply means you have an awful lot of options, and since the town is so versatile I think it's the best. You could say, with Dungeon there will always be a play for victory. If you specify a certain situation you may most of the time maybe find another town that may be better suited, but not many.


My main problem with Dungeon is that they lack a strong damage dealer. Aside from the Minotaur Kings and the Black Dragons, none of their units are spectacular when it comes to dealing damage. The Minotaurs are fast and powerful, but not fast enough to cross the map in a turn, making ranged units dangerous against them (unlike Sultans and Thunderbirds) until you get Tactics. Dragons are of course level 7 units.

Here's what I make of some of your points, too -

1. Best starting troops of all factions: strongly disagreed. The race with the best starting troops is probably Rampart. Sure you might start with only half as many Centaurs, but how many Centaurs do you really need early-game anyway? You might get 15 off your starting hero, then another 15 off the obligatory second hero on the first turn, a third 15 if you hire a third hero and then 14 from the Centaur Stables. You can easily get more than 40 Centaurs, which is more than enough to kill everything neutral that survive the Elves' barrage. Only think you can't do is take out a Dungeon hero in a straight fight, but situations like this where players clash in the first few days are rather rare. Troglodytes however you cannot maneuveur around just outside the enemy movement range and you are going to eat damage. You can preserve Centaurs, you cannot preserve Troglodytes; you will use Centaurs for a far longer period of the game, you do not do the same with Troglodytes.

2. Best hero selection considering they come BOTH with strong might AND strong magic heroes: I don't think this is much of a matter. So long as a faction has at least one strong hero choice, you would choose that hero all the time (sorry Pitsu) and that's it. You have a viable choice, you don't need more options - although of course that is always good. Example: pre-TotE Inferno. Everyone picked Deleb to begin with. Of course Inferno has other heroes they can use, but who is going to use them? Put it another way. If a faction has one great hero and lots of mediocre heroes while another faction has lots of good heroes but no great one, I'd say the first faction has the better selection of heroes. Dungeon falls into the second category. Their heroes are good, but not all that much compared to (say) Galthran.
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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Oct 17 2008, 23:09

Dungeon not having any great heroes? I'd pit Gunnar against ANY hero, any day of the week.

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Postby Muszka » Oct 18 2008, 0:53

Banedon wrote:but not all that much compared to (say) Galthran.
I would prefer Isra or Vidomina instead, they give more power to skeletons than Galthran. But after all UHO is right Gunnar is great in your definition.
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Postby Banedon » Oct 18 2008, 4:10

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:Dungeon not having any great heroes? I'd pit Gunnar against ANY hero, any day of the week.


Logistics specialists are usually banned, though (together with Sir Mullich).

Muszka wrote:I would prefer Isra or Vidomina instead, they give more power to skeletons than Galthran. But after all UHO is right Gunnar is great in your definition.


Galthran is superior in my opinion; he makes your Skeleton stacks a LOT more powerful (and they're level one units, benefitting the most from a hero specialization).
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 18 2008, 8:40

@ Banedon

What you say is basically the following:

"Usually I play on Hard or even Expert Difficulty and pick my starting hero; additionally some heroes are banned, like Gunnar, for example, and Kyrre as well, obviously.
Under these rules I think that Rampart has the better 1st day creeping force, and additionally Dungeon has no exceptional hero remaining, only a couple of good ones."

Let's see, if I understand the point of your reasoning: There are exceptional heroes that are considered too exceptional and therefore they are banned; and there are heroes that are so exceptional you'll pick them before everyone else, but are not considered too exceptional. Best, therefore, to have one really exceptional hero that is not considered too exceptional so that you can always pick him or her.

Now, I don't want to argue about that line of argumentation - we did that already, and I don't want to repeat me -, but my point was a different one: just take a look at the last paragraph you quoted. The point was that you will always have a play with Dungeon NO MATTER WHAT (and I listed the points - or some of them - that make it possible. NO MATTER WHAT, and I explicitely say, in each or nearly each specific situation you may find a town that may be better suited for the task at hand - but Dungeon will always be somewhere in the front row.

So, if I can start with a specific hero I may take Shakti for at least roundabout 70 Trogs, hire the second hero plus hire the level 1 out and have 120 Trogs, not to mention the dozen Harpies that are more useful than the Dwarves. 120 Trogs can take out a lot, and while the Centaurs are faster and won't have many losses, Shakti won't neither due to giving them an additional speed and starting with Tactics.
Additionally, Shakti is exceptional enough for your definition of an exceptional hero, since he's the Dungeon's Galthran whom you cite, except that he starts with Tactics to offset the fact that Galthran will probably have more Skeletons under his command eventually than Shakti Trogs. :)
. On any small map where opposing towns are near each other and not separated by a heavy force the combination Shakti/Warlock may win you the game in week 1 already when the mage guild will hold Ice or Lightning. You may face something like 150-160 upgraded Trogs for 900+HPs and a Warlock blasting away with a couple of Lightning bolts.

On the other hand, what if you have to play under different conditions? Random hero, impossible difficulty? No problem with Dungeon, sure, you may be unlucky, but with Rampart you'll be unlucky half of the time.

So, remember, that was the point. If you don't doctor a map without sulfur and ore to specifically disable Dungeon resource-wise, with Dungeon there is always a play for victory.
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Postby Muszka » Oct 18 2008, 10:01

Banedon wrote:Galthran is superior in my opinion; he makes your Skeleton stacks a LOT more powerful (and they're level one units, benefitting the most from a hero specialization).
I never liked unit specialists. Since sometimes the respective unit may die and the specialty is wasted. Let's put this aside, still I prefer Isra, since with her I'll have around (more than) twice the skeletons with any other hero (except Vidomina). I think that that is better than having skeletons giving 120-150% of their skills.
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Postby Pol » Oct 18 2008, 12:40

You should certainly put it aside. Being necro and playing without skeleton tanks is ...., unlikely the winning strategy.

Galthran is best unit specialist in the whole game, he seems like an obvious third choice coming after Sir Mullich and Logistic specialists. And mostly your best bet for Necro.

The combination of Isra/Vidomina for accumulating an early supernatural stack of skeletons and then passing them to Galthran it's sure very interesting thing to do too. (Just not everytime this opportunity will be opened.)
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Postby Muszka » Oct 18 2008, 15:03

OK different approach. I like skellies. I think it's my favorite lvl 1 unit, but I like better when I have 2-3-4-5000 of them instead of 1-2-3000 which has +5 Attack and Defense and + 1 Speed. I usually build for late game and not early game. I just develop as much as it's needed for survival, and I rarely play S maps.
And on a different side, what if I happen to get lucky and find the pieces of the Cloak of the Undead King? My Galthran will become half as useful as it was, and if I have Isra instead she in 10 battles will become invincible.
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