HoMM III: Strongest town/faction

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

What do you think is the strongest faction

Castle
2
6%
Dungeon
4
13%
Fortress
0
No votes
Necropolis
8
26%
Rampart
2
6%
Stronghold
1
3%
Tower
0
No votes
Conflux
14
45%
 
Total votes: 31

og_greek
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Unread postby og_greek » 13 Oct 2008, 21:09

I clearly stated it was based on units only.

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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 13 Oct 2008, 23:05

@JJ
I agree that on a small map 10 (or around number) Firebirds (and the according army) is the winner. But the more time passes the weaker Conflux gets.
Don't understand me wrong. I agree that it has a good creeping force, Sprites and Storm Elementals being the strongest lvl 1 and 2 units. But than comes the backdraw. Water Elementals are poor despite the fact that they can shoot. Energy E.s and Magma E.s worth nothing. AT least the former has fire immunity, which can be used if you plan the Armageddon tactic (but that leaves you with only Phoenixes and Magic E.s as main damage dealing units.) and the letter has some health, but no damage.
Magic E.s are good indeed. but their magic immunity is just as great curse as bless, because they are slow (compared to black dragons).
It's a thing that the Phoenixes come in numbers, but that's their only asset, since their resurrection special is not so good as it seems. When they do it in the last fight it may help, but it never helped me, since when it occurs it may be already too late. But if they do it in earlier fights it's already a big problem.

Also only the Sprites and Phoenixes can be resurrected. That's a big issues in the case of Storm and Magic E.s mainly.
Also their heroes need the magic university because they get only junk skills on their own.

But one thing is for sure. Their grail structure is the best.

Also I agree that it can be strong in good hands, but which faction doesn't? :)
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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 14 Oct 2008, 04:54

Well, you are not supposed to dawdle, not with any town, but certainly not with the Conflux. If the map is bigger there will be neutral towns to take. An evil town with Armageddon in it, and you are home - I mean, that's how the town is designed.
But evil town or not, there is no way to beat the Conflux with Magic, I think we agree here.
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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 14 Oct 2008, 10:00

Yes Armageddon may win the battle for you, but the same is with Fortress in H5. The 4 upper-lvl units are fire immune. So it's not unique.
As for magic? They triumph as long as Malekith doesn't comes their way with 4 Expert magic schools, and armed till teeth with most damaging spells. (OK, this was scoffing/exception - do not take it seriously)
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Unread postby Corbon » 14 Oct 2008, 10:38

Dream Team
Level 1: Centaur Captain
Level 2: Storm Elemental
Level 3: Royal Griffin
Level 4: Vampire Lord
Level 5: Thunderbird
Level 6: Dread Knight
Level 7: Phoenix

In your dream team there is only one, low-level shooter which cones in small numbers, and cannot be resurrected. Plus there are no defender units. The only one who can be counted as such is the R Griffin
.

Which is bloody irrelevant, since I consider those units the strongest ones WITHIN their level. And Stormies still perform well in melee (Bless is a killer), while Grand Elves will deal 1/4 of their damage they would deal against mid-ranged units for example).

About Conflux
Sprite + Stormies = best early scout pair in the game. You effectively have two Lv 3 units at your disposal (Stormies, Ices) though the latter ones are totally overpriced.
Phoenix: There should be ZERO discussion about Phoenixes being the strongest Lv 7 since growth rate and price is part of the creature. 4 Phoenixes (8000g, 800 HP) with a first strike guarantee will slaughter any other Lv 7 pair. Immune vs Fire is a huge plus as well.

Other aspects: Grail Structure is an utter gamebreaker and Magic University is possibly the best regular building, arguably better than Stables. And you get a lovely Artifact Merchant as well.

The real downside is 2 crap units (Lv 4-5).

Edit: To the TC, how many Rampart units did you place at number 1? Centaur Captains, Grand Elves and...?

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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 14 Oct 2008, 23:32

Which is bloody irrelevant, since I consider those units the strongest ones WITHIN their level. And Stormies still perform well in melee (Bless is a killer), while Grand Elves will deal 1/4 of their damage they would deal against mid-ranged units for example).
They may be considered the best in their lvl, but even if that would be true, it mean s nothing in real play or almost nothing in real play. Mostly because whenever you played you never played with those units alone. To give an example, try creeping only with stormies, and you'll be surprised how fast they can die, and how small number is that 12. If you underestimate Grand elves try reading trough the Best level 3 unitthread. They may be not the best lvl 3 unit on their own, but there will be almost no cases on a normal map when you do creeping or fighting with only one unit type.
Phoenix: There should be ZERO discussion about Phoenixes being the strongest Lv 7 since growth rate and price is part of the creature. 4 Phoenixes (8000g, 800 HP) with a first strike guarantee will slaughter any other Lv 7 pair. Immune vs Fire is a huge plus as well.
No way Jose, no way. They are fast and probably hit first, but if not for their numbers, they could not stand against any other lvl 7 units. Just do some testing (one on one), and you'll rapidly see that Phoenixes will die out fast, because the lack of hp and defense, and will do almost no damage due to the fact that they have low attack, and small damage output. On low numbers the Firebirds' speed can beat other non-upgraded lvl 7 units in early game (how JJ said). (that can be true for Phoenixes also), but the longer you wait the more your chances die. The big HP cannot make up for the lack of damage.

Conflux has speed and numbers (concerning phoenixes and pixies) but lacks overall damage. It has creeping force, but it lacks crushing force.
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Unread postby Banedon » 17 Oct 2008, 07:46

@Muszka -
They may be considered the best in their lvl, but even if that would be true, it mean s nothing in real play or almost nothing in real play. Mostly because whenever you played you never played with those units alone. To give an example, try creeping only with stormies, and you'll be surprised how fast they can die, and how small number is that 12. If you underestimate Grand elves try reading trough the Best level 3 unitthread. They may be not the best lvl 3 unit on their own, but there will be almost no cases on a normal map when you do creeping or fighting with only one unit type.
There's little doubting that Storm Elementals are the best level 2 unit. They are fast and they have gargantuan stats. And they're ranged. You don't creep using only them; you always guard them.
No way Jose, no way. They are fast and probably hit first, but if not for their numbers, they could not stand against any other lvl 7 units. Just do some testing (one on one), and you'll rapidly see that Phoenixes will die out fast, because the lack of hp and defense, and will do almost no damage due to the fact that they have low attack, and small damage output. On low numbers the Firebirds' speed can beat other non-upgraded lvl 7 units in early game (how JJ said). (that can be true for Phoenixes also), but the longer you wait the more your chances die. The big HP cannot make up for the lack of damage.
There's also little doubting that Phoenixes are the most powerful level 7s. They reproduce at 4 (!) a week, and their dwelling is easily reached in the first week, and they have the highest speed in the game. One on one they'll get destroyed by Archangels or whatever, but Heroes isn't a 1-on-1 game. In a realistic game you're looking at maybe 10 Phoenixes against 3 Archangels if the Conflux user gets off his level 7 dwelling a week earlier (which he should). Even if he doesn't it's still 10 Phoenixes against 5 Archangels. Can the Archangels win? No they can't.

Conflux is clearly the most powerful race in HoMM 3. Their armies start fast, stay fast and multiply fast, and they're guaranteed access to any magic tree they need. You can't beat them unless it's a really large map and you're playing Necropolis (and maybe even then).
Dream Team
Level 1: Centaur Captain
Level 2: Storm Elemental
Level 3: Royal Griffin
Level 4: Vampire Lord
Level 5: Thunderbird
Level 6: Dread Knight
Level 7: Phoenix
Off the top of my head I'd prefer Centaur Captains, Storm Elementals, Grand Elves, Crusaders, Thunderbirds, Dread Knights and Phoenixes, but that's for another thread.
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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 17 Oct 2008, 09:49

Banedon wrote:There's little doubting that Storm Elementals are the best level 2 unit. They are fast and they have gargantuan stats. And they're ranged. You don't creep using only them; you always guard them.
I have nothing against this argument. If anything I wrote seemed so, than I say that it was only for explaining something else. :)
Anyhow my only problem with stormies is that they are scarce in numbers and cannot be resurrected.
There's also little doubting that Phoenixes are the most powerful level 7s. They reproduce at 4 (!) a week, and their dwelling is easily reached in the first week, and they have the highest speed in the game. One on one they'll get destroyed by Archangels or whatever, but Heroes isn't a 1-on-1 game. In a realistic game you're looking at maybe 10 Phoenixes against 3 Archangels if the Conflux user gets off his level 7 dwelling a week earlier (which he should). Even if he doesn't it's still 10 Phoenixes against 5 Archangels. Can the Archangels win? No they can't.
Let me ask you a question which is more powerful 1 Azure Dragon or 4 Black Dragons? I guess it's the same with Arch Angels and Phoenixes. It's much harder to loose an AAngel than a Phoenix, not only becaue of that 50 HP, but because of the stats too. In a big fight if you storm you Phoenixes to the next side of the field, the whole Castle army will feed on them. And can finish them off in a round.
Phoenixes are great, gives the player the first strike ability, but stat-wise they are only a 6,5 lvl unit.
Conflux is clearly the most powerful race in HoMM 3. Their armies start fast, stay fast and multiply fast, and they're guaranteed access to any magic tree they need. You can't beat them unless it's a really large map and you're playing Necropolis (and maybe even then).
That is opinion my friend, and mine is quite different :)
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Unread postby Chai26 » 17 Oct 2008, 12:35

jesus christ, another one of the "strongest ?????" threads 8|
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Unread postby Corbon » 17 Oct 2008, 15:43

Stats-wise, Conflux simply lacks a Lv 2 and a Lv 5 unit. Stomies are among the best Lv 3's, their Lightning vulnerability hurts though, but they're immune vs Mind Spells and have no melee penalty, so in order to take them out of the game, they must be destroyed. Magmas on the other hand suck even as a Lv 4 unit. Their stats are similar to Horned Demons but they're nearly twice as expensive. As for Phoenixes vs. Archangels, well Phoenixes are immune vs Fire and regrowth at a certain number, AA's can be disabled with Blind and since damage magic ignores stats, I'd be more comfortable with 800 HP than with 500.

Comparing any Lv 7 unit vs the Neutral Dragons doesn't work very well, since ALL Lv 8+ Dragons are piss-poor investments. No one with any clue would choose 1 Azure Dragon over 6 Archangels, 7-8 BD's, 10 AB's or 15 Phoenixes, if one had a choice. But if money doesn't matter and we're only comparing growth rate, then Azures win.
Last edited by Corbon on 24 Oct 2008, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby wimfrits » 17 Oct 2008, 15:47

Muszka wrote: Anyhow my only problem with stormies is that they are scarce in numbers and cannot be resurrected.
You don't even need storm elementals for creeping. Sprites until getting firebirds; sprites + firebirds until upgrading to phoenix.
Sprites are yet another reason why Conflux is horribly overpowered.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 17 Oct 2008, 16:47

Not everything can be defeated by only sprites... one hit and half of a group is no more.

@Corbon
In early game noone can get an Azure Dragon, not because you cannot flag a Frozen Cliff within 2-3 weeks in normal map. But if I could I would rather spend my money on them than the whole regiment of a week. Not just because of their health, but because of the Attack and Defense. That counts.
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 17 Oct 2008, 17:55

Muszka wrote:Not everything can be defeated by only sprites... one hit and half of a group is no more.
Well, we had this discussion already. Of course you cannot defeat everything with only Sprites. But you cannot defeat everything with Harpy Hags and/or Trogs or Gremlins or Marksmen or whatever either. You have to know what your troops are capable of, and the "threat level" of a map plays a role, of course, but there are different ways to go at things, and believe me (and wimfrits and probably a couple of others) when I say that

you don't need Storm Elementals to creep with the Conflux.

I mean, the thing is, that the Conflux was obviously DESIGNED to be unbalanced for campaign reasons, and believe me, they did a good job.
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Unread postby Pol » 17 Oct 2008, 18:18

Jolly Joker wrote:I mean, the thing is, that the Conflux was obviously DESIGNED to be unbalanced for campaign reasons, and believe me, they did a good job.
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Unread postby Corbon » 17 Oct 2008, 20:01

Well the Conflux bulk was designed around the Lv 2-5 elementals. They didn't change the base creatures so they didn't need to screw with the Summon Elemental spells. They did a craptastic job in designing the upgrades and the missing levels 1, 6 and 7.

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Unread postby Banedon » 17 Oct 2008, 20:59

Muszka wrote:Let me ask you a question which is more powerful 1 Azure Dragon or 4 Black Dragons? I guess it's the same with Arch Angels and Phoenixes. It's much harder to loose an AAngel than a Phoenix, not only becaue of that 50 HP, but because of the stats too. In a big fight if you storm you Phoenixes to the next side of the field, the whole Castle army will feed on them. And can finish them off in a round.
Phoenixes are great, gives the player the first strike ability, but stat-wise they are only a 6,5 lvl unit.
Of course you don't storm up to the other side of the field on the first turn with the Phoenixes. It's the same with Archangels, the fastest unit you can hire not counting Phoenixes. Are you going to charge them over to the other side of the field on their very first move? If you do, the entire enemy army will assemble in a ring around the Archangels, say 'thank you very much' and squash them flat.

But that doesn't make Archangels any less powerful, does it?
Muszka wrote:
Conflux is clearly the most powerful race in HoMM 3. Their armies start fast, stay fast and multiply fast, and they're guaranteed access to any magic tree they need. You can't beat them unless it's a really large map and you're playing Necropolis (and maybe even then).
That is opinion my friend, and mine is quite different :)
All you have to do to confirm that opinion is to play a game against someone (or yourself, if you prefer) of equal or slightly inferior skill level with whatever race you want against Conflux. I highly doubt you'll win (I've tried).
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 17 Oct 2008, 22:03

Conflux IS the strongest town, by far. I don't even believe some are debating this...

It may not be your favorite (it sure as hell ain't mine) but in terms of pure strength, it's unmatched.

This is simply a fact, not an opinion!

As for my vote for Rampart, this is simply because I don't consider Conflux as an option in my personal H3 experience.

(Thanks heavens NWC allowed Shadow of Death users to disable Conflux completely.)

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Unread postby Muszka » 18 Oct 2008, 00:44

JJ wrote:Well, we had this discussion already. Of course you cannot defeat everything with only Sprites. But you cannot defeat everything with Harpy Hags and/or Trogs or Gremlins or Marksmen or whatever either.
I think you know what I meant. :)
Banedon wrote:All you have to do to confirm that opinion is to play a game against someone (or yourself, if you prefer) of equal or slightly inferior skill level with whatever race you want against Conflux. I highly doubt you'll win (I've tried).
The problem is that there is no one around. And my internet connection lacks speed for such a play, but hey! if I'll ever have such a connection we can try it :) .
UHO wrote:Conflux IS the strongest town, by far. I don't even believe some are debating this...
Seemingly I'm the only one debating this. Maybe I should trust the logic - if everyone say you are stupid than you might believe them, but I rather not. If I could I would really stand forth to a real game against anyone to prove my opinion, but I can't. :)
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Unread postby Banedon » 18 Oct 2008, 04:07

Play against yourself then ...
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Unread postby Muszka » 18 Oct 2008, 09:41

I do/done it many times in the past. Right now I'm playing a map with Confulx, just for the heck, to see if I'm talking in vain :)
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