Heroes 3 fan-made balance patch (mod) updated!

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Devils' special is only good to reduce the positive luck that the enemy had through events/artifacts/Luck skill.

And if you want to talk about Heroes 2 , use my other thread

[Toge]

Devils' special is only good to reduce the positive luck that the enemy had through events/artifacts/Luck skill.

- Exactly, which makes it weaker than intended. Fountain of Fortune can also change positive luck into "bad luck", but you can never have unlucky attacks. Compare this to Ghost Dragon's -1 morale, which *can* make enemies miss their turn. In my opinion Arch Devil's bonus just doesn't justify price of second most expensive 7th level unit.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I agree and it's why I increased their HP and damage. I have no idea how to make negative luck work, so besides that, I also removed Misfortune of any chance of appearing in guilds (did the same with Disguise, which is plain bugged)

[juderiverman]

Devils' special is only good to reduce the positive luck that the enemy had through events/artifacts/Luck skill.

could you change devil's specialty to increase allied troop's luck +1, rather than decrease enemy troop's luck -1 (current setting)?

Also, on the secondary skill: luck, the +3 upper limit may be removed or modified. Same apply to the secondary skill: leadership.

Eagle Eye:
From 40% 50% 60% to 85% 85% 85%
Resistance:
From 5% 10% 20% to 10% 15% 20%

Still unattractive.

maybe, expert resistance should provide 30% magic resist.

and only after eagle eye could learn spells from the creatures, such as master genie, the skill would become somehow useful.

[juderiverman]

Ideas:

1, make Orc and Orc Chieftain full damage (straight arrow) when the target is 10 more hexes away; and half damage (broken arrow) when the target is less than 10 hexes away.

* Orc and Orc Chieftain are a bit too ignorable. Besides, throwing is way different from shooting.

2, paint green dragon into silver dragon. green dragons are supposed to be "evil", aren't they?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Jude, I have no idea how to change most of the stuff you listed, and as for resistance, it's a fine skill at 20 % think about it, it's a 20% chance for the powerful enemy warlock w/ implosion to completely waste his turn, every turn, and it guarantees you that not all your stacks will be affected by mass slow/curse/ etc
Try a game with Thorgrim, on hard/expert difficulty one of these days and you'll see

Anyway, small update to my patch (not yet uploaded): the Shield spell is now *slightly* less effective.
Reduced effectiveness of Shield from 15% / 30% to 13% / 25%.

Think about it: Stone Skin's +3 / +6 defense boost only offers a meager 7.5% / 15% damage reduction (same as Armorer at Expert level), with the only advantage (over Shield) of protecting against shooters (which are far less nunerous than melee attackers).

I thought of leaving the basic version to 15%, but the advanced version is meant to double the basic version, so...

[kyrub]

Finally, a non Wog thing.
Is this mod dead or are you planning to update it?


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Suggestions:

CREATURES effects (improve wimps)
Wraith should drain more MP, I'd say 5.
Pegassi effect: spells cost 5 more.
Wyvern poison lasts for 6 turns.
Imps - 33% of mana spent goes for hero.
Scorpicore - 30% to paralyze.


SPELLS:
Spells on no level cost 200% of the basic value (or 150% for more conservative approach). May seem radical, but it gives good reason to have a Magic hero with good Knowledge, Intelligence or Mysticism skills.

Blind should cost 20 (or 15 at least)
Dispell - no mass dispel.
Haste and Slow - remove the mass effect. The speed/initiative is the most powerful factor in Homm. Instead, at Expert lvl give +8 for haste, and decrease by 80% for slow.
Personnally, I'd remove mass effect from every 1st level spell (bar Protection) and put big effect instead. Higher lvl spells should have much more mass effect.
Protection family - mass effect at every level, 25%, 50%, 75%.
Magic-Mirror - mass effect at every lvl, 10%, 20%, 40% (5th level spell).
Improve all Elemental summoning to double effect (5th level spell should be a battle-changer)
Sorrow - mass effect at every lvl, -1, -2, -3. It's a 4th lvl spell.
Fortune - +2, +3, +3 (mass). Or no change if you make change in the Luck mechanics (See bellow).
Counterstrike - mass spell at every level +1, +2, +3. It's a 4th lvl spell.

SECONDARY SKILLS:
Necromancy: 5,10,15. Necro amplifier +5
Eagle eye: 80, 90, 100 perhaps?
Sorcery: 10,20,30 (we improved protection...)

MECHANICS:
Luck should "happen" about 1,5x more often.
I would not mind changing the Movement points per creature speed table (improving the lower values). Having any slower unit in a hero army is not a viable strategy in any case. Walking deads, golems, never good for an army, too punishing.

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Learning:
From 5% 10% 15% to 15% 30% 45%

The only one that needs a big change. It should be much more. Here's the logic: you basically "waste" 3 levelling ups to get to 45% expert learning, which gives you quicker levelling up... wait, haven't you just wasted those 3 levels? When exactly expert Learning pays for itself? (very very late in the game). Okay, you get some more primary skill increase, but that's far less important.

Learning needs a big boost to become a real game variant. I'd go for 30%, 60%, 100%.

[Salamandre]

learning is a waste of a skill, it is useful only in WoG, if 12 available skills are selected. In SOD, even with higher percentages, will not match the key skills, as magic, armorer, archery, offense, the maths do not lie. Due to damage caps, having a few more attack/defense is less effective than secondary skills.

Removing the mass effect of slow/haste are scary changes. You affirm not wanting another WoG, while the changes you propose are really changing the game. In WoG you can deselect what you don't like, until you get a pure SoD, but not with this patch, once you have it, all changes are permanent.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

The reason I didn't re-upload yet is that I want to fully test out the Turret/Armorer bug fix incorporated with my H3 patch.

The CD version of my mod will never have the turret bug fix, but that's not a big deal since all the no-cd version misses are the intro campaign movies (the campaigns still work anyway)

kyrub, most of the changes you'd like, I am unable to do. 95% of my work was on the Data files (.TXT) and they only allow basic numerical changes, not functional changes. The rest (secondary skills changes + turret bug fix ) were applied to the EXE.

[GreatEmerald]

The CD version of my mod will never have the turret bug fix, but that's not a big deal since all the no-cd version misses are the intro campaign movies (the campaigns still work anyway)

No they don't. Just copy the missing files from the CD (might need some manipulation using MMArchive) and you can watch them.

[kyrub]

kyrub, most of the changes you'd like, I am unable to do.

I can do any of these changes (in exe files), the question is, which ones should / should not be done.

learning is a waste of a skill, it is useful only in WoG, if 12 available skills are selected. In SOD, even with higher percentages, will not match the key skills, as magic, armorer, archery, offense, the maths do not lie. Due to damage caps, having a few more attack/defense is less effective than secondary skills.

Damage caps never apply. You'd need to have +60 difference in attack/defense.
Few skills "match" universally good offense skill. Learning can be a very good situational skill, in early game, big map. That said, I am not against giving learning even more %, like +50%, +100%, +200%.

Removing the mass effect of slow/haste are scary changes.

Really? Removing one special mass effect from 2 spells, only on expert level, is too much? This only confirms how overpowered and over-used these spells are. In fact, no spell is more useful than mass slow. First level spell should never be more powerful than fourth or fifth level spells.

My question: will a single-target expert slow be useful in the game? I can see it easily, restraining a horde of Necro skeletons to speed 1 or an archangel to speed 3. Very good spell, very useful, a must-have one. Same with expert haste, very good, if maybe more a situational choice.

In WoG you can deselect what you don't like, until you get a pure SoD

Sadly, I was never able to deselect everything (maybe it's my fault). I still got some wogified nonsenses on maps here and there. Also, the AI was somehow crippeled. Universal flexibility is often an excuse for very bad designs and mods, personnally, I prefer pure concepts, less flexible.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Also, the AI was somehow crippeled. Universal flexibility is often an excuse for very bad designs and mods, personnally, I prefer pure concepts, less flexible.

100% agree. This is why I hate WoG.

By the way, in my mod, those mass spells cost a lot more once you get Expert. Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing, I guess.

OK, the first post of this topic was updated with the latest patch.

The link to the recent patch was updated. It includes kyrub's turret fix, and my own secondary skills fix. Tested, works fine.

Place the .TXT files in the data folder, and the exe in the root Heroes 3 folder.

http://pages.infinit.net/plague/h3mod.zip

[Salamandre]

Really? Removing one special mass effect from 2 spells, only on expert level, is too much? This only confirms how overpowered and over-used these spells are.

I said scary because it changes completely the game and the long time legacy coming with. What you propose will make unplayable the million maps and campaigns done until now, among them there are some real gems. Removing mass effects is like saying to someone that from today he will have to walk on one feet only. Now, if you sit down and design some maps balanced to support your ideas, I have nothing against. But if not, what we play then?

Universal flexibility is often an excuse for very bad designs and mods, personnally, I prefer pure concepts, less flexible.

Where you got this idea? Better a game is, more flexible is. WoG adds things one by one, all optional upon the player wish, in one click. If Heroes editor satisfied us ten years ago, now it reached harsh limits, practically except hack and slash, nothing can be done and the concurrence is rude. With WoG, Heroes 3 stands within the high standards today. And don't forget, WOG is not a mod or a game, but a tool. It does what you want.

Funny, the changes you suggest can not be done by editing text files, but only using WoG ERM scripts. The "bad mod" only can do what you want.

[kyrub]

I said scary because it changes completely the game and the long time legacy coming with. What you propose will make unplayable the million maps and campaigns done until now

Please, cite 10 single players maps (not Jebus or other template, but a premade map, if I understood you correctly) that have become unplayable with the change so that I can try to win one of them.

Funny, the changes you suggest can not be done by editing text files, but only using WoG ERM scripts. The "bad mod" only can do what you want.

I do the changes directly in the exe code. In fact, this is better than ERM, becuase the AI then understands what was changed (internally). ERM works with the external part of the game, it always stops the game, adds content, moves on. The AI can never accomodate its moves to new ERM scripts. Generally, new features dumb down the AI who cannot use them properly.

By the way, in my mod, those mass spells cost a lot more once you get Expert. Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing, I guess.

This can actually be better than my suggestion, if they cost a real lot more. How much is this?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

By the way, in my mod, those mass spells cost a lot more once you get Expert. Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing, I guess.

This can actually be better than my suggestion, if they cost a real lot more. How much is this?

I knew should have documented those more in detail... (instead of just saying "mass spells cost more"

List of all spells that target all when reaching Expert:

I'm sure you'll find they still don't cost enough, but go ahead and provide me with your own list for each spell you disagree with mine.

SPELL POINT COSTS
No skill, Basic, Advanced, Expert

Lv1
Prot. Fire: 5 4 4 5
Prot. Water: 5 4 4 5
Dispel: 5 4 4 5
Cure: 6 5 5 6
Bless: 5 4 4 9
Curse: 6 5 5 10
Bloodlust: 5 4 4 9
Stone Skin: 5 4 4 9
Shield: 5 4 4 9
Haste: 6 5 5 10
Slow: 6 5 5 10

Lv2
Prot. Air: 7 5 5 7
Precision: 8 6 6 6
Weakness: 8 6 6 12
Fortune: 7 5 5 7

Lv3
Air Shield: 12 9 9 12
Prot. Earth 12 9 9 12
Mirth: 10 8 8 10
Mistortune: 7 5 5 7
Forgetfulness: 10 8 8 8

Lv4
Prayer: 16 12 12 20
Sorrow: 13 10 10 13
Counterstrike: 16 12 12 20

[kyrub]

I'm sure you'll find they still don't cost enough

You are right.

The big problems with mass 1st level spells for me:
- they make the game too easy in an early stage
- the expertize (secondary) is more important than primary skills like Spell power or Knowledge, which erases Magic heroes advantage over Might heroes. And it's illogical.
- however, it is very enjoyable and rewarding to cast mass spells (so we don't want to get rid of them, just sort the big problems)


Looking around, both Homm 2 and Homm 4 have mass spells on third level, which is telling. I understand you want to keep your Homm3 patch as conservative as possible, so my ideas are probably useless to you, but since you asked...

Ideas, solutions:
a) Get rid of the mass effect for some spells. That's kind of desperate.

b) Increase mass spell cost. This actually forces heroes to have good knowledge! To make this effective you'd need to have high mass costs, BUT really high costs (like 30 MPs) would sometimes disable the spell (when low on mana). This again seems illogical and annoying. If only we had the mechanics to cast the spell either in advanced mode (cheap), or in expert (expensive), I'd be all for it. Otherwise, 10 MPs seems about all you can do with it. It does not solve the problems.

c) Make the spell cost dependent on number of creatures affected (e.g. Slow_cost = 3*slowed_down_stacks). That would be solid, but it is a bit hard to implement (possible, probably). Still, the problem with "low on mana" is not entirely solved. I could probably live with it in this case.

d) Leave the mass spells as they are, but change some other mechanics to make them less exploitable. I explain what I mean in two examples:

d1) Change the way heroes gain expert secondary skill. Right now, it is easy to get the expert magic +- in three level-ups. You are always offered a skill upgrade and a new skill. Let's say I insert a 50% possibility of not getting a straight offer for expert skill, instead 2 new skills will be offered. This would make expertize a bit of a rare commodity. I don't find this too good, it's just an example.

d2) More radical: Change the Spell power effect. Right now, spell power = spell duration. This makes SP > 5 basically useless for non-damage spells, also any mass slow lasts for the whole combat easily. Not good. - Let's change the mechanics: Spell duration = Spell power - Creature_lvl or 1, whichever is greater. Example: if a hero with SP = 10 casts blind on Behemoths, duration = 10-7 = 3 rounds of combat.

With this effect, mass slow is less powerful than before (on big creatures), unless you have really high Spell power. The d2) mechanics also solve the problematic balance between Magic and Might heroes. Might heroes will probably slow the enemy army for 1-2 turns only, which is still not bad at all (but not overpowered). Magic heroes will rule the spells.


Final word: I'd prefer to combine minor increase in MP (your way) with d2 solution. I know it's too radical for your patch. But you asked.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

d2) More radical: Change the Spell power effect. Right now, spell power = spell duration. This makes SP > 5 basically useless for non-damage spells, also any mass slow lasts for the whole combat easily. Not good. - Let's change the mechanics: Spell duration = Spell power - Creature_lvl or 1, whichever is greater. Example: if a hero with SP = 10 casts blind on Behemoths, duration = 10-7 = 3 rounds of combat.

With this effect, mass slow is less powerful than before (on big creatures), unless you have really high Spell power. The d2) mechanics also solve the problematic balance between Magic and Might heroes. Might heroes will probably slow the enemy army for 1-2 turns only, which is still not bad at all (but not overpowered). Magic heroes will rule the spells.

Actually, this is by far the best solution anyone has ever posted in my opinion. By balancing it with spell power, you wouldn't even need to do any more tinkering with spell costs. You could make it so that this change is ONLY for mass spells, not single target version.

If you are talented enough to implement this, by all means. But keep in mind I want a final EXE with
1) these changes
2) your turret bug fix
3) my own secondary skill changes ( I kept all offsets and % values if you need them)

[kyrub]

Wow, that's a nice surprise for me. Very well, let's do the change.

I found the crucial point in subroutines, everything's ready. All I need now is to know how the creature level is stored. Not very easy to see (it is almost unused bar probably the map creation), will take some more time.

There are couple of questions related to the change:
1) The AI must be aware of the rules change. We don't want another woggish dumbing effect. Fortunately, the spellcasting AI was already located in the code, so the path is more or less clear.
2) the Artifacts of conjuring (adding spell duration) - an important detail. These things suddenly have much bigger value. The artifacts that give Spellpower bonus will now not always boost the spell duration, but Cape of Conjuring gives a flat bonus to any spell (even on 7th level creature). I like the twist, but I think the "conjuring" artifacts should be pushed up in rarity. +1 duration = tresure, +2 duration=minor, +3 duration=major?

Speaking of artifacts, dear UHO, were you considering more rarity balance changes?

There is also the Badge of Courage bug, making it one the most powerful items in the game, in fact a game-breaking item. Personnally, I would suggest this: let Pendant of Total Recall (anti-forgetfullness), which is one of the most useless artifacts in game, take over the qualities of Badge of Courage (protects from all mind spells) and become a major artifact. (I have one more improtant suggestion for Luck and Morale artifacts, but that can wait.)


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DISPEL problem:
I would recommend to make Dispel more expensive (10 9 9 15). That has a simple rationale: if the cheapest spell can negate anything positive or negative you throw, what is the point of magic? You cast Precision (8 MPs), he dispels it (5 MPs), he gained 3 MPs and you have lost one round. Mass dispell is even more powerful, a Might hero with mass dispel will be laughing at you for 5 MPs per turn. So 15 MPs is a fair price. I would not mind moving Dispel to Air magic as well, because Water magic has already the Cure and it is quite redundant.

But Cure in my book can stay as it is, since it is less universal.

(btw, my other arguments above are still put, I will try to develop them later )

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Not sure I agree about Dispel... offensive spells should be harder and more expensive than the counter to it.

>>>I like the twist, but I think the "conjuring" artifacts should be pushed up in rarity. +1 duration = tresure, +2 duration=minor, +3 duration=major?

That's a toughie... I already removed quite many artifacts from the "treasure" pool...


Speaking of artifacts, I already balanced most of them like the Bade of Courage (I already updated the description and beefed its rank years ago, among many others)


ARTIFACTS
Changed text of badge of courage to display immunity to mind spells
Changed type of badge of courage from Treasure to Major
Increased gold value of badge of courage from 1000 to 8000
Changed type of Necklace of Swiftness from Treasure to Minor
Changed type of Ring of Vitality from Treasure to Minor
Changed type of Necklace of Ocean Guidance from Major to Minor
Decreased gold value of Necklace of Ocean Guidance from 10000 to 3000
Changed type of Garniture of Interference from Major to Minor
Changed type of Sandal of the Saints from Minor to Major

[Lapimano]

Hi, anyone can tell me how to change secondary skill effects?
I can change things in txt files but not skills.
I know it is difficult, but someone would tell it me please, or give a manual?

Thanks.