Of Necropolis and "unbeatableness"

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 19 Sep 2006, 18:06

Banedon wrote:1000-2000 Skeletons per battle? What kind of battles are those? Must be crazy impossibly large maps or something.


Yeah, there were many neutral legion stacks and ai had thousands upon thousands of troops. I was using Vidomina who was at level 27 too.
In fact, I think Necropolis must play offensively, because if they don't they'll run out of food, wherupon they would soon be eclipsed in power by the other races.
Personally, I don't find battling too many neutrals early on a huge benefit of necromancy. Usually, you'll only collect a horde or so skeletons this way. That's not to say it's bad, because every single one counts. It also puts my mind at ease because I can't stand losing troops in combat, but I'll make exception with skeletons because I know I'll keep producing more. It's later on in the map when you start fighting large armies when necromancy really pays off.
Conflux is imbalanced. There're many reasons:

1. Sprites are very good level 1 units. Yes they die like flies, but they reproduce like flies as well, move fast and strike without retaliation. There aren't many creatures that strike without retaliation at low levels.
Yeah, sprites are really great and they probably my favorite level 1 unit. But still, given the choice of fighting against 300 sprites or 250 centaurs/pikeman/rogues, I would defintely rather deal with the sprites because I can get rid of them with one blow, where as the others would cause problems because they are much more durable.
2. Storm Elementals are very very good level 2 units. To say they die to lightning spells is underestimating the threat they are. You can only cast one spell per turn - if you spend it on a damaging spell, you give your opponent ample chances of a more devastating spell (eg. Mass Slow, Mass Prayer, Clone). And...they're level 2 units. If you're targetting them with lightning spells, what about the obviously more dangerous level 7s?
The main reason they are very good is because they have a disproportionate amount of health compared to other level 2 and some level 3 units. It's really more of a balance issue between factions, but I don't mind because conflux middle tier units aren't especially spectacular. They also have erratic damage ratio's which can be both a blessing or a curse. Also, in the creature descriptions is says air and ice elementals have no melee penalty, but I think they do. (Or at least ice elementals might suffer a penalty?) I could be wrong though.
3. Phoenixes reproduce at x4. This the real cruncher. Not only do Phoenixes guarantee you the first move in battle, they also reproduce fast and are easy to get.


I agree, this is what puts conflux at an unfair advantage. It's so obvious too, so I don't know why the developers did this. Luckily, thanks to WoG, or even using trait files, I can set the growth down to x2. :)
Compared to, say, Rampart, you won't be seeing Green Dragons anytime near when the Firebirds first appear.
Actually, I won't be seeing green dragons ever because I replaced centaurs and dragons with sprites and phoenix to honor the H2 sorceress town. :D
4. The Magic University is impossible. You're guaranteed to learn magic of the kind you want, and given how powerful magic is Conflux heroes are immensely versatile. If you're fortunate enough to get, say, Crag Hack in your tavern, you multiply your army's power ten-fold. And let's not mention the Aurora Borealis...
A lot of people seem to emphasize the magic university, but I never use it because I will never ever choose to master more than two schools of magic since it takes away skill slots for other things. On top of that, I never have a chance to build it until late in the game because I play on impossible and that building in not only expensive, but also costs extra money to learn the skill. I'd rather just take my chances with an adventure map university. The Borealis is awesome, but I never have the good fortune to find the grail, so it doesn't help me anyway. :mad:
Conflux has a strong start to the game. Not as fast as Rampart, but definitely a strong start (good level 1s + good level 2s). The only other race with a comparably fast start is Castle; races like Stronghold would take time to get their Thunderbirds into play or they'd blow their gold reserves by rushing to Behemoths. Conflux is imbalanced. Don't play them.
They do have a strong start and I agree they have the edge on small maps, but if you reduce their phoenix growth, then they are on par with any other faction on larger maps in my opinion. At least I've never had to struggle against them. I never play with them because their faction is the most uninspired and boring faction to use, not because they are superior.

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Banedon
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Unread postby Banedon » 21 Sep 2006, 10:55

It's later on in the map when you start fighting large armies when necromancy really pays off.
If it's a competitive game against human opponents, you won't be finding large armies - unless that army was the main army of your foes.
Yeah, sprites are really great and they probably my favorite level 1 unit. But still, given the choice of fighting against 300 sprites or 250 centaurs/pikeman/rogues, I would defintely rather deal with the sprites because I can get rid of them with one blow, where as the others would cause problems because they are much more durable.
The AI can't use the Sprites effectively (and if the army you have has decent ranged firepower, you should have little problems too). Imagine instead a battle. You have Necropolis and 500 Skeleton Warriors. Would you fight the Sprites or the Centaurs? If you fight the Sprites, I bet I can cause you some severe damage, more even than the Centaurs, though both cases will be painful.

Also important is the fact that if you're the one using Sprites, you can deal damage without taking any. With spells and other creatures, Sprites can do a lot. I'd rather have 300 Sprites than 250 Gnoll Marauders, for example.
The main reason they are very good is because they have a disproportionate amount of health compared to other level 2 and some level 3 units. It's really more of a balance issue between factions, but I don't mind because conflux middle tier units aren't especially spectacular.
No, but they can reach their last-level units quickly, and those are spectacular.
A lot of people seem to emphasize the magic university, but I never use it because I will never ever choose to master more than two schools of magic since it takes away skill slots for other things. On top of that, I never have a chance to build it until late in the game because I play on impossible and that building in not only expensive, but also costs extra money to learn the skill.
You use two magic trees? I'd think most people prefer three.

You don't have a chance to build it until late-game, but by late-game your heroes develop with amazing versatility. It's quite possible to have a level 15 hero with some free slots still, things Magic University would guarantee I get a good skill. And it can mean a lot. There's an enormous difference between casting Expert Prayer and Prayer.
They do have a strong start and I agree they have the edge on small maps, but if you reduce their phoenix growth, then they are on par with any other faction on larger maps in my opinion.
You agree then! :) Right now, with 4x Phoenix growth, they are overpowered.

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 21 Sep 2006, 18:22

If it's a competitive game against human opponents, you won't be finding large armies - unless that army was the main army of your foes.
It really depends on the map. But no one can complain about free troops no matter how much you ressurect. It really does add up in the end.
Imagine instead a battle. You have Necropolis and 500 Skeleton Warriors. Would you fight the Sprites or the Centaurs? If you fight the Sprites, I bet I can cause you some severe damage, more even than the Centaurs, though both cases will be painful.
The problem is that the value of a unit can't be judged by how useful it is by itself. There are many other factors to consider because you don't usually fight one on one battles.
I'd rather have 300 Sprites than 250 Gnoll Marauders, for example.
So would I, but my point is they are not significantly better or worse than some other level 1 units. Also, you can kiss them goodbye if you're involved in siege combat. You usually lose around 50 sprites per round to towers alone.
No, but they can reach their last-level units quickly, and those are spectacular.
Magic elementals are good, but like I mentioned before, I don't like how they are too much like hyrdras. I also mentioned that for me, phoenix are probably the least valuable level 7 unit. There are much more spectacular units in my opinion.
You use two magic trees? I'd think most people prefer three.

Sometimes, I only choose one magic school. If you have an abundance of spells and decide to choose three or more different schools, it's unlikely that you'll be able to put all of your specializations to good use. You have to prioritize which spells you want to cast. For example, prayer, bless, and weakness would be simple and effective, but if you have haste, mirror image, implosion, blind, etc. it creates needless confusion because all of those spells would be useful to cast. Yes, it's good to have variety, but too much of it is unnecessary.

Keep in mind that I play with a modified spell system that triples the cost of all spells if you don't have secondary school specializatoin, so these examples might not mean much to you. Also, I usually play a might oriented hero and rarely have enough resources to build high level guilds since I play on impossible, so spells don't mean as much to me.
Magic University would guarantee I get a good skill.
Yes, it can. But with WoG, all skills have become much more useful and there are much better alternatives for my playing style and much more cost efficient alternatives too.
They do have a strong start and I agree they have the edge on small maps, but if you reduce their phoenix growth, then they are on par with any other faction on larger maps in my opinion.
You agree then! :) Right now, with 4x Phoenix growth, they are overpowered.
I meant to say that I agree they are ideal for small maps. Though I don't think phoenix should have 4x growth, 4 phoenix are only slighty better than 2 behemoths, dragons, angels, etc. Even so, it's very simple to reduce phoenix growth. On top of that, I imagine that veteran homm players feel that regardless of any advantage or disadvantage a faction may have, it is a strategy game, and people will rise to the occasion to overcome challenges. I don't care if phoenix have 6 growth. I'll just have to be more creative in finding ways to deal with them... unless the hero has an armageddon spell... then I'm doomed.;|

edit: Quite a few people in the middle of this thread posted something like inferno's "demon rush" technique is just as good as necromancy or something like that? I'm not really sure what their technique is, but I don't see how pit lords special ablity is any way comparable with raising demons on par with skeletons.

First of all, you need a lot of pitlords to be able to ressurect a lot of demons. Then, you need to have a ton of troops fall in combat in order to be able to ressurect many demons because it depends on health. It's very unlikely that your pitlords will survive long enough against ai or human, and it's really tedious and even difficult trying to kill your own troops in neutral battles. You would need meteor shower or something. An ideal strategy would be to cast sacrifice on one of your troops to ressurect all your pitlords and then use the pitlords ressurect ability on the sacrificed stack, but unfortunately, when you cast sacrifice, the corpse of the unit disappears, so you can't do it. If I'm misunderstanding this strategy, could someone explain to me.

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Unread postby Banedon » 10 Oct 2006, 06:45

It really depends on the map. But no one can complain about free troops no matter how much you ressurect. It really does add up in the end.
No one would, but how much of a difference will it make? Like in an example earlier in this thread (no idea where; no time to search for it too) I had 2000 Skeleton Warriors against 30 Ancient Behemoths. The Behemoths got the first strike, and then all the Skeleton Warriors were just bones on the floor.
The problem is that the value of a unit can't be judged by how useful it is by itself. There are many other factors to consider because you don't usually fight one on one battles.
Yes, but it shows that Sprites are good units with powerful tactical options. It's something unique to them that makes them good.
So would I, but my point is they are not significantly better or worse than some other level 1 units. Also, you can kiss them goodbye if you're involved in siege combat. You usually lose around 50 sprites per round to towers alone.
They are significantly better, in my opinion, than all other level 1 units except Centaur Captains (provided they're present in equal numbers). Siege combat definitely results in you losing Sprites; you have no choice with that. But Sprites reproduce fast, and you will be losing level 1 units anyway.
Magic elementals are good, but like I mentioned before, I don't like how they are too much like hyrdras. I also mentioned that for me, phoenix are probably the least valuable level 7 unit. There are much more spectacular units in my opinion.
No matter how much they are like Hydras, Magic Elementals are superb level 6 units (most level 6 units are superb though). Phoenixes are the least valuable level 7 unit, but I think you're thinking things through the lens of "Phoenixes reproduce at 2 per week". Given they reproduce at 4 and given that Conflux can have them stockpiling from an early stage in the game, it really gives Conflux a game-breaking advantage.
Sometimes, I only choose one magic school. If you have an abundance of spells and decide to choose three or more different schools, it's unlikely that you'll be able to put all of your specializations to good use. You have to prioritize which spells you want to cast. For example, prayer, bless, and weakness would be simple and effective, but if you have haste, mirror image, implosion, blind, etc. it creates needless confusion because all of those spells would be useful to cast. Yes, it's good to have variety, but too much of it is unnecessary.
Versatility is always good. If your opponent casts Mass Curse, you will want Mass Bless. If your opponent casts Mass Slow, you will want Mass Haste. If your opponent casts Blind on your Mighty Gorgons, you will want Mass Cure. And if your opponent casts Implosion, you will want Resurrection.

You have to prioritize which spells you want to cast, but if you have only one spell school you will be restricted. Extra magic schools provide you options you would otherwise not have. The price is losing other abilities, but I think the power of magic outweighs the loss.
Yes, it can. But with WoG, all skills have become much more useful and there are much better alternatives for my playing style and much more cost efficient alternatives too.
I don't know about WoG; I've not used it. What's it done to every skill?
I meant to say that I agree they are ideal for small maps. Though I don't think phoenix should have 4x growth, 4 phoenix are only slighty better than 2 behemoths, dragons, angels, etc. Even so, it's very simple to reduce phoenix growth. On top of that, I imagine that veteran homm players feel that regardless of any advantage or disadvantage a faction may have, it is a strategy game, and people will rise to the occasion to overcome challenges. I don't care if phoenix have 6 growth. I'll just have to be more creative in finding ways to deal with them... unless the hero has an armageddon spell... then I'm doomed.
No...4 Phoenixes are way better than 2 Ancient Behemoths, 2 Black Dragons or even 2 Archangels. They give speed, they deal damage and they result in a tremendous boost to Conflux power. Yes, players will find ways to overcome any disadvantage, but sometimes the disadvantage honestly shouldn't be there in the first place.

You remind me of a game I had when I was new to Armageddon's Blade. I fought my two brothers (back then, obviously worse players than me) in the map Arrogance. I had Castle; both of them had Conflux. Final result was an impossible victory for them. No way any race can hold against the 4x growth of Phoenixes (unless it's Necropolis and there's still food around) unless there is a powerful redeeming factor of some sort. Phoenix initiative just means too much.
It's very unlikely that your pitlords will survive long enough against ai or human, and it's really tedious and even difficult trying to kill your own troops in neutral battles. You would need meteor shower or something.
Yup, that's how you go by it. Send your 2000 Imps to be killed by a neutral stack of lots of Harpy Hags if you have to. Or just move them nearby and cast Meteor Shower / Fireball / Inferno. Then spam the Raise Demon! :) Tedious it sure is, but effective.

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 10 Oct 2006, 18:56

Banedon wrote: No one would, but how much of a difference will it make? Like in an example earlier in this thread (no idea where; no time to search for it too) I had 2000 Skeleton Warriors against 30 Ancient Behemoths. The Behemoths got the first strike, and then all the Skeleton Warriors were just bones on the floor.
Nothing will withstand 30 behemoths. It was a hopeless battle. :devious:
But Sprites reproduce fast, and you will be losing level 1 units anyway.
The problem with all level 1 units is that no matter how they reproduce, they die too easily. In fact, they die too fast to be replaced into worthy numbers that you would want in your army. If you lose a few hundred sprites or anything, it will take a long time before you can bring them back into your army and they are a decent force to actually be useful in battle. Siege battles really wear down these troops and it's especially bad for sprites.
Versatility is always good. If your opponent casts Mass Curse, you will want Mass Bless.If your opponent casts Mass Slow, you will want Mass Haste. If your opponent casts Blind on your Mighty Gorgons, you will want Mass Cure. And if your opponent casts Implosion, you will want Resurrection.

You have to prioritize which spells you want to cast, but if you have only one spell school you will be restricted. Extra magic schools provide you options you would otherwise not have. The price is losing other abilities, but I think the power of magic outweighs the loss.
Actually, all you really need to counter all those spells you mentioned is water magic. Bless, cure, and dispel, will keep you out of trouble as far as support spells go. If I decide that I want a second school, that usually provides me with all the versatility I need.

(Just a note: I arranged some spells in the game and ressurect is now a water spell for me. Air would also work because that school has dispel now.)
I don't know about WoG; I've not used it. What's it done to every skill?
Eagle Eye: Allows you to choose between two new spells to learn each time you gain a level. (Up to L4)
Learning: 300xp per day and % chance to get an additional stat each time you gain a level.
Pathfinding: Raises base movement to 8
Estates: Produces resources each week and additional gold
Navigation: +3 attack in naval battles.
Artillery: Additional damage from ballista and chance to kill a few creatures before battle.
First Aid: Additional health and revives a few units after battle.
Scouting: Random events while walking and espionage ability.
Mysticism: 30% mana is regained each day. You can spend mana to get in depth info on enemies. You can learn what spells you will get from mage guilds before building.
Scholar: 60% chance to learn random spell each week. (up to L4)
Luck: %chance to get +2 att/def when attacking.
% increses for Sorcery, Resistance, Armorer
but sometimes the disadvantage honestly shouldn't be there in the first place.
Which is why I reduced the phoenix growth to 2. ;) I think that solves the problem.
No way any race can hold against the 4x growth of Phoenixes (unless it's Necropolis and there's still food around) unless there is a powerful redeeming factor of some sort. Phoenix initiative just means too much.
I think the most powerful redeeming factor any time I play heroes is the fact that my hero is always so strong that no one can stand against me no matter what the armies are like. This is one thing that I really don't like about homm. There are too many maps that have a ton of major artifacts and adventure dwellings that raise stats to the point that you have a god-like hero. It really stinks because it takes all the challenge out of the game for me.
Yup, that's how you go by it. Send your 2000 Imps to be killed by a neutral stack of lots of Harpy Hags if you have to. Or just move them nearby and cast Meteor Shower / Fireball / Inferno. Then spam the Raise Demon! :) Tedious it sure is, but effective.
I don't think I've ever had more than 600 imps at any given time, so assembling 2000 seems unrealistic to me. Especially since the strategy was called "demon rush" but in fact there is nothing rushing about it. Even with a grail in place, it would take a long time to collect that many of them, and then there's the tedious factor involved. Honestly, I don't think I've ever used the pit lords abilty more than 5 times. It's not much of a strategy if you ask me.

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Unread postby Banedon » 11 Oct 2006, 00:12

Nothing will withstand 30 behemoths. It was a hopeless battle.
I won the battle...
The problem with all level 1 units is that no matter how they reproduce, they die too easily. In fact, they die too fast to be replaced into worthy numbers that you would want in your army. If you lose a few hundred sprites or anything, it will take a long time before you can bring them back into your army and they are a decent force to actually be useful in battle. Siege battles really wear down these troops and it's especially bad for sprites.
You lose Sprites only against an enemy hero or in a castle siege. Otherwise you should not lose anything.
Actually, all you really need to counter all those spells you mentioned is water magic. Bless, cure, and dispel, will keep you out of trouble as far as support spells go. If I decide that I want a second school, that usually provides me with all the versatility I need.
Making Resurrect a Water spell is cheating :D

And it isn't the end. Water doesn't give you Dimension Door and Town Portal; Mass Dispel removes your own buffs; you can't cast Mass Bloodlust or Frenzy or Mass Stoneskin, etc. More spells are always good. Losing some might skills for it is more than worth it in my opinion.
Which is why I reduced the phoenix growth to 2. I think that solves the problem.
It does, but that doesn't spoil the fact that Conflux is overpowered before WoG.
I think the most powerful redeeming factor any time I play heroes is the fact that my hero is always so strong that no one can stand against me no matter what the armies are like. This is one thing that I really don't like about homm. There are too many maps that have a ton of major artifacts and adventure dwellings that raise stats to the point that you have a god-like hero. It really stinks because it takes all the challenge out of the game for me.
You're not playing against another human player then. All that you have, he will have as well.
Eagle Eye: Allows you to choose between two new spells to learn each time you gain a level. (Up to L4)
Learning: 300xp per day and % chance to get an additional stat each time you gain a level.
Pathfinding: Raises base movement to 8
Estates: Produces resources each week and additional gold
Navigation: +3 attack in naval battles.
Artillery: Additional damage from ballista and chance to kill a few creatures before battle.
First Aid: Additional health and revives a few units after battle.
Scouting: Random events while walking and espionage ability.
Mysticism: 30% mana is regained each day. You can spend mana to get in depth info on enemies. You can learn what spells you will get from mage guilds before building.
Scholar: 60% chance to learn random spell each week. (up to L4)
Luck: %chance to get +2 att/def when attacking.
% increses for Sorcery, Resistance, Armorer
Powerful boosts. I don't know how things work seeing I've not tried WoG itself, but I would still think getting another magic school is imperative - unless you switch all the useful spells to one school :D
I don't think I've ever had more than 600 imps at any given time, so assembling 2000 seems unrealistic to me. Especially since the strategy was called "demon rush" but in fact there is nothing rushing about it. Even with a grail in place, it would take a long time to collect that many of them, and then there's the tedious factor involved. Honestly, I don't think I've ever used the pit lords abilty more than 5 times. It's not much of a strategy if you ask me.
Send your Magogs to die as well then. And Pikemen from captured towns, etc.

It's not a rush, but it's effective.

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 11 Oct 2006, 12:31

Banedon wrote:I won the battle...
Oh...
You lose Sprites only against an enemy hero or in a castle siege. Otherwise you should not lose anything.
But I mean that level 1 troops feel like they are only good for one time big battles, and after that, they're useless. I think it's a dowside of a game.
Making Resurrect a Water spell is cheating :D
Well, the point was to seperate the two ressurect spells from one another so as to balance things. And other changes were made to balance other schools.
And it isn't the end. Water doesn't give you Dimension Door and Town Portal; Mass Dispel removes your own buffs; you can't cast Mass Bloodlust or Frenzy or Mass Stoneskin, etc. More spells are always good. Losing some might skills for it is more than worth it in my opinion.
But that's when the priorty issues comes along. When you have lot's of spells like bloodlust, frenzy, stoneskin, etc. battles might not last long enough for you to make good use of all of them. Most of the time, I'm focusing on a few select spells and don't use the rest. I can't remember the last time I've cast weakness, lust, shield, etc. all in one battle. Two schools is enough for any trouble that might come up. That applies to adventure spells to.
It does, but that doesn't spoil the fact that Conflux is overpowered before WoG.
Fair enough. :)
You're not playing against another human player then. All that you have, he will have as well.
Not if you kill the other hero. Then you're even more invulnerable.
unless you switch all the useful spells to one school :D
Nope, though ressurect moved to water, it lost some other things. It was meant to even the playing field between schools since most people (I think) always choose earth and water magic. Another thing I changed is the power of all the weak spells that no one ever uses, like inferno, death wave, cold ring, etc.
Send your Magogs to die as well then. And Pikemen from captured towns, etc.

It's not a rush, but it's effective.
Everytime that I play Inferno, I always tell myself that I'm going to build a huge army of demons this way, but I never seem to get around to it. It's hard. :( I guess I just don't like letting my troops die in battle.

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Unread postby Banedon » 12 Oct 2006, 23:43

But I mean that level 1 troops feel like they are only good for one time big battles, and after that, they're useless. I think it's a dowside of a game.
You generally don't lose that many level 1 troops outside of the final large battle, and after the final large battle you don't need much to win the game. So it doesn't really matter.
Well, the point was to seperate the two ressurect spells from one another so as to balance things. And other changes were made to balance other schools.
Water, in my opinion, is already one of the most versatile and powerful Magic schools. Giving Water Resurrect is not good.
But that's when the priorty issues comes along. When you have lot's of spells like bloodlust, frenzy, stoneskin, etc. battles might not last long enough for you to make good use of all of them. Most of the time, I'm focusing on a few select spells and don't use the rest. I can't remember the last time I've cast weakness, lust, shield, etc. all in one battle. Two schools is enough for any trouble that might come up. That applies to adventure spells to.
Me as well, but the option to do so is always good. Come the time of the final battle you won't be using these spells, but you might use Blind, Frenzy, Mass Slow...

Mass Bloodlust and Mass Stoneskin are only effective if you don't have high level spells available, but Expert Frenzy, if cast on (say) your Power Liches, can have a great effect. In fact, in the above battle I was all ready to do so until I made the dire mistake of allowing my opponent to cast Mass Haste.
Not if you kill the other hero. Then you're even more invulnerable.
We must consider the fact that the other guy is a Human player. If you kill his main hero he'll likely concede, and it's the end of the game. But since he's human, it's just as likely that he'll kill you.
Everytime that I play Inferno, I always tell myself that I'm going to build a huge army of demons this way, but I never seem to get around to it. It's hard. I guess I just don't like letting my troops die in battle.
Only the most fanatical of fanatics (eg. csarmi) would do this :D

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 13 Oct 2006, 02:38

Banedon wrote:You generally don't lose that many level 1 troops outside of the final large battle, and after the final large battle you don't need much to win the game. So it doesn't really matter.
Not really my experience, but I don't care enough to argue over it. :)
Water, in my opinion, is already one of the most versatile and powerful Magic schools. Giving Water Resurrect is not good.
Well, keep in mind that there were other changes to compensate too.

But do you have any suggestions? I'm always trying to find ways to make it better. You probably like things just the way they are, but do you by any chance have any suggestions of what other school ressurect would belong?
Me as well, but the option to do so is always good. Come the time of the final battle you won't be using these spells, but you might use Blind, Frenzy, Mass Slow...

Mass Bloodlust and Mass Stoneskin are only effective if you don't have high level spells available, but Expert Frenzy, if cast on (say) your Power Liches, can have a great effect. In fact, in the above battle I was all ready to do so until I made the dire mistake of allowing my opponent to cast Mass Haste.
Yes, the examples you mentioned fall into two schools: earth and fire. I don't think having more than two schools is necessary. Because I'm sometimes obsessed with might, I choose one school and it still suits me well because casting lower level mass spells is sometimes better than some higher level ones. Here's my ideal skill set with WoG.

Might:
Offense
Armorer
Archery
Resistance
Logistics
Leadership
Luck
Water

Magic:
Wisdom
Eagle Eye
Sorcery
Fire
Earth
Offence
Armorer
Logistics
Only the most fanatical of fanatics (eg. csarmi) would do this :D
Ah, that feeling of sweet madness takes me back to H2 which is the only game I've ever been crazy enough to play for 12 hours straight. *Sigh* I wish they simply remade H2 with updated mechanics instead of...

Anyhow, I don't want to write to much more since I'm sure you're getting ready to test out H5 and don't want to be bothered with having to read or type at the computer. Hope you have good experiences with it. ;)

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 14 Oct 2006, 13:53

Resurrecting imps and gogs into demons is simple enough. You just need several heroes to do so every turn. Best done in XL maps with many neutral camps.

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Banedon
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Unread postby Banedon » 20 Oct 2006, 13:51

Well I guess the big difference between us two is that you play WoG and I don't. Not much to debate over then :)

mr.hackcrag
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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 20 Oct 2006, 20:45

Even without WoG, I'd still pretty much choose the same skills.

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Dread Knight
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Unread postby Dread Knight » 21 Oct 2006, 08:08

Whoo,That Topic is getting Huge.Personally I prefer Necropolis.In the beggining it`s weak(I`m talking about the first two weeks) but ones you get the Vampire Lords and the dRead Knights "R" in the 4 5 weeks things are getting simple-The Lichs must be Lots too(25, 35).I`m not recruiting Dragon Vault.They are unnececery and I`m hoppin to join some other units(6th 7th level).I dont have moral so i can search Tombs and Shipwrecks.Oh,and if I can find Cowl of the Undead King-The GAmE is Over :D :beheading: :devil:.
Enjoy playing Heroes 3 Complete and like Cars

Burning Star IV
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Unread postby Burning Star IV » 23 Oct 2006, 00:59

well i havent read all of this and am not most experienced player, but in my opinion the necropolis is a bit overpowered. Not unbeatable, as i've beat and been defeated as them, but come on. talking terms of h3 (wog or not), expert necro gets 30% skeletons. so defeating a neutural stack of 100 gets 33, 200 gets 66, ect. so basically all you do is go hunt neutural creatures, not letting any flee, and you have yourself hundreds more first level troops, which, depending on the map can basically kill or hurt greatly any stack that comes close, and that can win battles. Now, with the arti's. its no competition. the 3 necromancy ones not only can double necro skill, but combined it necromances liches. and the diplomats ring, combined with the surcoat of counteprise (or whatever its called) multiplies skeletons by 4 (in wog that is). now tell me that isnt unbeatable, or at least hard considering dread knights kick arse and liches/vampires are also powerful :P

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Derek
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Unread postby Derek » 28 Oct 2006, 15:34

And I thought we had solved this debate months ago. :D

Unless someone, once again, wants to have a "controlled test" about Necro strength then I'm not sure what's left to discuss(however much fun it may be).
Hell has frozen over...

mr.hackcrag
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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 28 Oct 2006, 21:44

Derek wrote:Unless someone, once again, wants to have a "controlled test"
What did the first test yield?

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Banedon
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Unread postby Banedon » 29 Oct 2006, 00:27

Whoo,That Topic is getting Huge.Personally I prefer Necropolis.In the beggining it`s weak(I`m talking about the first two weeks) but ones you get the Vampire Lords and the dRead Knights "R" in the 4 5 weeks things are getting simple-The Lichs must be Lots too(25, 35).I`m not recruiting Dragon Vault.They are unnececery and I`m hoppin to join some other units(6th 7th level).I dont have moral so i can search Tombs and Shipwrecks.Oh,and if I can find Cowl of the Undead King-The GAmE is Over.
Given your opponents will all be fielding level 7s, can you really go without them? Of course Cowl of the Undead King is imbalanced :D
now tell me that isnt unbeatable, or at least hard considering dread knights kick arse and liches/vampires are also powerful :P
Well, at least the stance of all those who think Necropolis isn't imbalanced is that the extra Skeletons don't mean that much, unless there is a really really large number of them. Necromancy-boosting artifacts though would however add a lot of weight to the argument that Necropolis is imbalanced...

One of the biggest weak chains in Necropolis is their pitiful level 7s. And the fact that they'd have some difficulty earlier on just getting Vampire Lords into play, and before that happens they'll consistently take casualties in battles.
What did the first test yield?
The first test was the map 'All For One'. You must play Blue. You have a time limit of two weeks. One Necropolis player farms as large an army as he can in those two weeks while one player playing another race farms another army. Compare the results after two weeks. Who's stronger?

The results then were that I, playing Rampart had quite a good force as well as level 7 dwellings while Derek, playing Necropolis, had 200+ Skeleton Warriors. I'd have concluded I win, but for two facts:

1. I might be better at Heroes 3 than Derek (though I don't know).
2. Derek played at Expert. I played at Hard. This would have a big effect.

The posts on this are somewhere in this topic - in the middle of it, I think.

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Derek
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Unread postby Derek » 30 Oct 2006, 01:40

I may sometime this week, it depends on midterms( :ill: ), go ahead and try the map again on hard to see how good I can do. Does it matter to you Banedon if the level two dwelling is there or not? I seem to recall some contention on the matter when csarmi was still around.

Then again I'm not so sure I think as strongly about the Necro as I once did. For some reason I always seem to forget just how bad those Dragons are...
Hell has frozen over...

BoardGuest808888
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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 02 Nov 2006, 11:10

The dragons are not bad. They're possibly the cutest creatures in Necropolis.


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