Storm elementals are overpowered and not a good comparison.
Wolf raiders are best raw damage wise imo but they got really low hp and tend to get focused a lot.
Harpy hags aren't bad but I dislike them. I rarely find them that useful despite their good stats/abilities.
Marksmen are the best overall I believe. Not because of their amazing stats or anything, but because they are the most useful in the majority of situations. Their cheap cost/decent growth and double shot ability makes them excellent for early map clearing and that is the best use you could want from an early low level unit.
They wouldn't do as well in a large battle as some of the other mentioned units, but giving you early map control means you'll probably have a better army anyways.
HoMM III: Best level 2 creature
Continuing the series of digging up creature threads...
Level 2 is a tough one but primarily because it's boring. I'm going to go through this via perceived usefulness, because that's what really counts here. Storms are level 3 units, so I won't vote for them. The contesters then: Battle Dwarf, Harpy Hag, Lizard Warrior, Marksman and Wolf Raider.
The dwarves have nice stats and the magic resistance is nice, although dwarves aren't the alpha target for spells. Very durable but very lacking in the speed department, especially for a blitzkrieg army that Rampart is. Also, being outside the build chain means they usually miss the first week (unless the structure's prebuilt). I typically just let them pile up and maybe use them for something later, probably defense, where they can make some impact with their durability. Good, but usually left home. Not very useful IMO.
Harpy Hags can be annoying, and they do have a nice mix of specialties making them some oddball mix of a shooter and melee fighter. Lately, however annoying they might be, I usually just ignore them. They won't be stealing my retaliations, and they won't really do significant damage at any point in the game, and they don't last that long. They are flexible, although sometimes their fly-back ability comes back to bite you, when you can't attack those pesky marksman AND sit beside them at the same time. A minor flaw, but sometimes annoying. For my Dungeon, I just pick the beholders and trogs for early creeping. With bless harpies can actually do some damage which is nice but then again you have to take your time and MP to cast that bless. Better than the dwarves, but not the best.
I kind of like the lizards after the AB damage boost and good hit points for a level 2 shooter. Being the Fortress's only shooter does make it seem a little bit more useful than most other level 2 units and while out of the build chain, I typically still build them in the first week if it looks like I'm not going to gather enough wood to get those wyverns (of course, using the wood for lizzys is sometimes a bad idea). They're a big help for supporting the flies early on. Once you start taking towns, the lizzys start dying of course, but they are very good for drawing that turret fire away from your flies. Too bad they aren't enough of a threat to force the opponent into attacking them, bringing his creatures into your main line's reach. In my books, the liz outranks both dwarf and harpy and is definitely in the top-3. With a little stat boost or perhaps removed melee penalty they'd make it to the first place.
Marksmen are nothing but damage output, but the output is amazing for a level 2 shooter. Or is it? Their numbers diminish faster than the lizards' so it really depends on the map. If the marksmen stay alive well enough, their superior damage output shines but if we assume that both units take about equal damage on the course of the scenario, the lizzys will win. The damage ratio is ~1.42:1 for the marksmen, but the HP ratio is 1.5:1 for the lizzys, and the lizzys have slightly higher defense stat (if memory serves). On one hand, marksmen will wear down faster than lizzys but on the other hand, this is usually insignificant unless you really need those level 2 shooters in mid game. Early game, marksmen are faster expansion units. So while I really like the lizzys more, I still gotta admit that the marksman is usually the better one, ultimately getting my vote.
The wolfies have outstanding damage output but them being otherwise weak melee units makes this sometimes hard to utilize. Not a spearhead unit, but an excellent workhorse for harassing weaker stacks that can't hit back so hard, or stacks that have already retaliated. As has been pointed out, they're difficult to get into the early game and their unupgraded version sucks and therefore usefulness drops. I typically use them in the relatively early game until the losses start to pile up and after that, I just drop them altogether. Their numbers are just too hard to keep up compared to similar units (marksmen, sprites) because they will be eating retaliation between those two attacks. It doesn't really help that they are a primary target.
So there you have my reasoning.
Level 2 is a tough one but primarily because it's boring. I'm going to go through this via perceived usefulness, because that's what really counts here. Storms are level 3 units, so I won't vote for them. The contesters then: Battle Dwarf, Harpy Hag, Lizard Warrior, Marksman and Wolf Raider.
The dwarves have nice stats and the magic resistance is nice, although dwarves aren't the alpha target for spells. Very durable but very lacking in the speed department, especially for a blitzkrieg army that Rampart is. Also, being outside the build chain means they usually miss the first week (unless the structure's prebuilt). I typically just let them pile up and maybe use them for something later, probably defense, where they can make some impact with their durability. Good, but usually left home. Not very useful IMO.
Harpy Hags can be annoying, and they do have a nice mix of specialties making them some oddball mix of a shooter and melee fighter. Lately, however annoying they might be, I usually just ignore them. They won't be stealing my retaliations, and they won't really do significant damage at any point in the game, and they don't last that long. They are flexible, although sometimes their fly-back ability comes back to bite you, when you can't attack those pesky marksman AND sit beside them at the same time. A minor flaw, but sometimes annoying. For my Dungeon, I just pick the beholders and trogs for early creeping. With bless harpies can actually do some damage which is nice but then again you have to take your time and MP to cast that bless. Better than the dwarves, but not the best.
I kind of like the lizards after the AB damage boost and good hit points for a level 2 shooter. Being the Fortress's only shooter does make it seem a little bit more useful than most other level 2 units and while out of the build chain, I typically still build them in the first week if it looks like I'm not going to gather enough wood to get those wyverns (of course, using the wood for lizzys is sometimes a bad idea). They're a big help for supporting the flies early on. Once you start taking towns, the lizzys start dying of course, but they are very good for drawing that turret fire away from your flies. Too bad they aren't enough of a threat to force the opponent into attacking them, bringing his creatures into your main line's reach. In my books, the liz outranks both dwarf and harpy and is definitely in the top-3. With a little stat boost or perhaps removed melee penalty they'd make it to the first place.
Marksmen are nothing but damage output, but the output is amazing for a level 2 shooter. Or is it? Their numbers diminish faster than the lizards' so it really depends on the map. If the marksmen stay alive well enough, their superior damage output shines but if we assume that both units take about equal damage on the course of the scenario, the lizzys will win. The damage ratio is ~1.42:1 for the marksmen, but the HP ratio is 1.5:1 for the lizzys, and the lizzys have slightly higher defense stat (if memory serves). On one hand, marksmen will wear down faster than lizzys but on the other hand, this is usually insignificant unless you really need those level 2 shooters in mid game. Early game, marksmen are faster expansion units. So while I really like the lizzys more, I still gotta admit that the marksman is usually the better one, ultimately getting my vote.
The wolfies have outstanding damage output but them being otherwise weak melee units makes this sometimes hard to utilize. Not a spearhead unit, but an excellent workhorse for harassing weaker stacks that can't hit back so hard, or stacks that have already retaliated. As has been pointed out, they're difficult to get into the early game and their unupgraded version sucks and therefore usefulness drops. I typically use them in the relatively early game until the losses start to pile up and after that, I just drop them altogether. Their numbers are just too hard to keep up compared to similar units (marksmen, sprites) because they will be eating retaliation between those two attacks. It doesn't really help that they are a primary target.
So there you have my reasoning.
Just want to add that the Marksmen will not necessarily be taking equal damage as the Lizard Warriors. This stems from two reasons:Marksmen are nothing but damage output, but the output is amazing for a level 2 shooter. Or is it? Their numbers diminish faster than the lizards' so it really depends on the map. If the marksmen stay alive well enough, their superior damage output shines but if we assume that both units take about equal damage on the course of the scenario, the lizzys will win. The damage ratio is ~1.42:1 for the marksmen, but the HP ratio is 1.5:1 for the lizzys, and the lizzys have slightly higher defense stat (if memory serves). On one hand, marksmen will wear down faster than lizzys but on the other hand, this is usually insignificant unless you really need those level 2 shooters in mid game. Early game, marksmen are faster expansion units. So while I really like the lizzys more, I still gotta admit that the marksman is usually the better one, ultimately getting my vote.
1. Marksmen are slightly faster. Given that you will not be losing Marksmen (or Lizard Warriors, if your aim is preserving them) against walkers, this means that the threat to Marksmen comes from enemy ranged units and / or fast fliers. Fliers fast enough to cross the map and attack the Marksmen can still be avoided by smart placement (put the Marksmen in the corner, split 6 Pikemen stacks, and don't attack a stack large enough that they split into 7 stacks of their own). Ranged units will hurt like it or not, but a higher speed means that you might be able to cast Haste and outspeed the other ranged creature - a significant advantage. Also, higher speed means you might get the first shot. If you split your Marksmen stacks, you might be able to decimate the neutral stacks before they can fire. Even if you can't, you might still take less damage.
2. Marksmen output higher damage output. If a creature does 10,000 damage per hit and has 20 speed, it won't matter how much its defense is because it's going to decimate the opposition before it starts taking damage. Offense is a powerful defense, and when Marksmen deal as much damage as they do chances are they'll reduce the damage they take by killing, instead of defense.
There will be times when you have no choice but to take damage (eg. a fight against Grand Elves, or a castle siege), and when that happens the Lizard Warriors are superior. But against the majority of creatures and maps that isn't the case, and Marksmen are the better unit.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.
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Yurian Stonebow
- Archmage
- Posts: 961
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
- Location: Vantaa, Finland
In my humble opinion, the roayl Erathian marksmen are the clear number one unit of this poll. Although the marksmen are quite feeble with low amount of HP and defence, they shoot twice which is always a nice specialty. I agree with others that they make an excellent early game attacking unit.
Growth: 18 marksmen per week with castle constructed.
Yurian
Growth: 18 marksmen per week with castle constructed.
Yurian
Don't worry if things are going badly today. They will be much worse tomorrow.
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BigThingWithHolesInIt
- Peasant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Voted Marksmen, but they have the Archangels to thank for that. Every Archangel will resurrect 10 Marksmen once per battle, which prevents the stack getting chafed down during long voyages, like with Grand Elves and Wolf Raiders.
The runners up were Harpy Hags (but they are the only flying unit that can't attack shooters well), Wolf Raiders (see above) and Battle Dwarves (excellent support unit but doesn't see a lot of action usually).
The runners up were Harpy Hags (but they are the only flying unit that can't attack shooters well), Wolf Raiders (see above) and Battle Dwarves (excellent support unit but doesn't see a lot of action usually).
Re: HoMM III: Best level 2 creature
I ran a simulation in which every level 2 creature fought every other level 2 creature in a round robin tournament (a total of 36 matches). Obviously, this doesn't take into account numerous gameplay considerations, but is nonetheless a good measure of head-to-head strength.
All battles were AI combat, on neutral ground, with no hero actions or any stat modifiers. I simulated combat alternating which creature was attacking and defending. If a creature was leading by 2 battle victories at any point - it was declared the winner. If the score was tied 3-3 after 6 battles, the match-up was declared a draw. One point was awarded for a win and 0.5 points for a draw.
In an attempt to evaluate both the upgraded version of the creature and the creature class as a whole, I actually ran two separate simulations. The armies for each of the simulations were as follows:
1. One stack of 100 upgraded creatures
2. One stack of 100 of base creature + one stack of 100 upgraded creatures
The results suggest that level 2 upgrades benefit melee units moreso than shooters:
All battles were AI combat, on neutral ground, with no hero actions or any stat modifiers. I simulated combat alternating which creature was attacking and defending. If a creature was leading by 2 battle victories at any point - it was declared the winner. If the score was tied 3-3 after 6 battles, the match-up was declared a draw. One point was awarded for a win and 0.5 points for a draw.
In an attempt to evaluate both the upgraded version of the creature and the creature class as a whole, I actually ran two separate simulations. The armies for each of the simulations were as follows:
1. One stack of 100 upgraded creatures
2. One stack of 100 of base creature + one stack of 100 upgraded creatures
The results suggest that level 2 upgrades benefit melee units moreso than shooters:
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